Questions about the Virgin Mary and other saints
By maildumpster
@maildumpster (3815)
United States
September 12, 2007 6:32pm CST
I have questions for anyone who can answer them. Please answer with the scripture that supports your answer.
Where does the idea that Mary ascended body and soul to heaven come from?
Where does the idea of sainthood come from (the saints appointed by the Catholic church - Roman or otherwise)?
Where does it tell us to pray to her and other saints?
If praying and worshipping before statues and images is not idolatry; then what is?
I am interested in hearing your answers.
3 people like this
5 responses
@rdurusan (624)
• Philippines
13 Sep 07
My answer is not from the scripture,common sense is the answer.The idea of Mary ascending to heaven is an invention of the catholics to gain more members.When Constantin give the decree to make catholicsm the universal church the worship of Mary is not there.After a long while the worship of Mary appeared in the Philippines in the 60's.I do not know the exact date of this worship in Rome,but i think it is more early than in the Philippines.I'll tell you this when an angel appeared in John's sight he kneeled to the angel and the angel stop him saying that i am also a creation of God.That is in revelation.If angels are not to be worship,what more of a man.
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@maildumpster (3815)
• United States
13 Sep 07
Thank you for your answer. I wish someone would come forward from the side that believes these things.
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@raisingsaints (217)
• United States
17 Sep 07
Sainthood--
God promises that the Davidic kingdom will last forever
2 Samuel 7:16 "And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever."
Jesus is a son of David
Matthew 1:1 "The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:"
The angel Gabriel tells Mary that she will give birth to the new King of the Davidic kingdom:
Luke 1:32 "He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of David."
key to the house of David
Isaiah 22:22 "The key of the house of David I will lay on his shoulder; So he shall open, and no one shall shut; And he shall shut and no one shall open." In context we find that the person assigned the keys is not the king, but Eliakim, who serves as a sort of "Prime Minister" in place of the king when he is absent. The keys are the symbol of plenary authority.
key to the Kingdom of Heaven
Matthew 16:19 "and I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Jesus, the King, through giving Peter the keys, assigns him the duty of "Prime Minister". Peter is to have plenary authority over the Earthly kingdom, the Church.
Peter's authority allows him to make declarations that are revealed to him by God. Matthew 16:16-19.
Eliakim was the successor of Shebna, so must Peter also have successors. The first successor of Peter was Linus who is mentioned in 2 Timothy 4:21.
The successors of Peter "inherit" his authority. God reveals His Saints to many members of the Church. After a fairly lengthy process, the Pope declares the revelation of God through His Church.
1 person likes this
@maildumpster (3815)
• United States
17 Sep 07
Where is this lengthy process in the bible? It isn't. It was made up by men.
This post even contradicts what you said earlier that the saints are the members of the body of Christ. So are all the believers/ members of the body of Christ saints or are only a few people saints? What does God's word say?
@raisingsaints (217)
• United States
18 Sep 07
Why is it necessary for this process to be in the Bible?
You call it made up by men, and I agree with you. It is made up by the successors of the Apostles in addition to the holder of the key to the kingdom of Heaven. It is made up by people that God appointed 1 Corinthians 12:28.
How does this contradict Scripture?
You missed my point in my earlier post. God's family is both in Heaven and on Earth. God's family exists in Jesus, who is the Head, and whose body is the Church. The saints are the members of the body of Christ, the Church.
The saints are all of the believers, so are members of the body of Christ, the Church. Jesus is the head of the Body in whom God's family exists. God's family exists both in Heaven and on Earth. Therefore, the saints exist both in Heaven and on Earth. How does this contradict what I said earlier?
@raisingsaints (217)
• United States
17 Sep 07
Sorry for the multiple responses, but it would've been way too long to put in just one.
What is idolatry?--
Praying to an image, not God or a saint
Praying to a statue, not God or a saint
Worshipping an image or statue, not God
Offering sacrifices to an image or statue
Adoring an image or statue, not God
Assigning power to someone other than God
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@maildumpster (3815)
• United States
17 Sep 07
You repeatedly contradict yourself.
Praying to an image is idolatry just as you said. Praying before an image of a saint is idolatry.
Praying before a statue is idolatry. It is worship.
You assign power to them that is not theirs. You assign them the ability to hear prayers.
Where in the bible has this power been given to any of the Roman Catholic saints?
@raisingsaints (217)
• United States
18 Sep 07
Where do I contradict myself?
If praying before an image or statue of a saint is idolatry and worship, then so is praying in front of a cross, a stained glass window, a picture of Jesus, a children's book with pictures of the prophets, an angel, or while wearing a cross. These are all graven images as well. Idolatry and worship is in the intent. Catholics do not treat images or statues as idols, nor do we adore them.
Another misconception of Catholic teaching. You state:"you assign power to them that is not theirs. you assign them the ability to hear prayers."
Catholics do not assign powers to images, statues, or Saints. All power comes from God.
Being able to "hear" is not a power, but comes as a result of existing outside of time and space. I've already provided Scripture references to the witnesses of those in Heaven. The saints are only in Heaven because they have been graced by God.
@raisingsaints (217)
• United States
17 Sep 07
Well, we've already discussed much of this, but since Catholic theology is one of my favorite subjects (and apparently yours too), I reiterate.
Now, I have said in other discussions that you attack what you clearly do not understand...and here you provide an example.
You ask "Where does the idea that Mary ascended body and soul to heaven come from?" My answer is I don't know because Catholics do not believe that Mary *ascended* into Heaven. But, I will tell you what Catholics do believe, that Mary was assumed into Heaven.
ascend - 1. to go or move upward; rise 2. to slope upward 3. to rise from a lower level or station; advance 4. to move upward upon or along; climb 5. to succeed to; occupy
Jesus ascended into Heaven by His own power because He is God. Mary did not ascend into Heaven because she had no power to do so.
assume - 1. to take upon oneself 2. to undertake the duties of(office) 3. to take on; adopt 4. to put on; don 5. to affect the appearance or possession of; feign 6. to take for granted; suppose 7. to take over without justification; seize 8. to take up or receive into Heaven
www.thefreedictionary.com/assume
God assumed Mary into Heaven. Mary did not assume herself.
The idea of Mary's assumption comes from the Apostles, who taught their disciples. Paul instructs the Thessalonians to hold fast to the traditions that he taught them, both oral and written traditions(2 Thess 2:15). He is warning against deceivers.
Also, Scripture reveals the body of a woman in Heaven in Revelation 12:1 while only the souls of the martyrs are in Heaven in Revelation 6:9.
Psalm 132:8 foreshadows Mary's assumption. "arise, o Lord, and come to your resting place, you and the ark of your might." An ark is a shelter or refuge. Mary's womb was the shelter for the unborn Jesus. She carried within her body, Jesus, the New Covenant. Therefore, Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant.
@maildumpster (3815)
• United States
17 Sep 07
Good gravy. I haven't been Catholic in 20 years. So shoot me that I used ascended instead of assumed. Regardless of the word; my meaning was the same - that she is in heaven body and soul not just soul.
You said "The idea of Mary's assumption comes from the Apostles, who taught their disciples. "
So you have proven what I said - there is NO scripture that actually says this happened. The scripture in Revelations that speaks of the woman in heaven does not name Mary does it?
An ark is many things besides a shelter or refuge. In that verse it refers to a symbol of his strength. Not a vessel. Where does the bible state that Mary is the ark of the new covenant? I spent plenty of time looking for it. I can find new covenant but nothing in relation to Mary and I searched 6 different versions of the bible.
I have also searched for assumption and it isn't there.
So again I ask you to show me anything that specifically names Mary as having been brought to heaven body and soul.
@agnescav (566)
• United States
13 Sep 07
Roman Catholics do not believe that Mary ascended into Heaven. They believe she was assumed into Heaven. The difference is that if she ascended, it would have been under her power. Since she is not a deity, she did not have that power. They believe that God lifted her to be with her Son.
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@maildumpster (3815)
• United States
13 Sep 07
You should check the definitions of ascended and assumed. Either way can you give evidence from God's word that it was done.
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