Anti-vegan

I have respect for everyone, regardless of their decisions, but I cannot bring myself to respect the decision to participate in the torture and murder of animals. That doesn't mean I don't respect the person. It's sort of like I don't respect the decision to rape or kill a person. Now, I know that this makes me sound like a fanatic at times, or "preachy"... but that is how I feel. This is the reason I have come to accept and understand why some people act the way they do in regard to things like abortion. Also, I just want to say that it does not feel "disciplined" (at least to me) to do what a person feels is ethically right. It feels strange that everyone around you is not doing the same... I find that a lot of people look at veganism and vegetarianism as a lifestyle built around deprivation and discipline... sooo not the case.

I guess both vegans and non vegans have erroneous preconceptions about each others lifestyles.

I was not born a vegan. I was a meat eater for most of my life. I would be more than happy to hear what my misconceptions about non-vegans are.

I think it stems from guilt, personally. They feel guilty for their choices so they lash out at those who are doing something to try to make things better. Subconsciously jealous...

I say "guilt" when it comes to people who make a concious decision to bash vegans. For example, people who take all that time to make an anti-vegan website. I am not saying the average meat eater who pokes fun at vegans necessarily feels guilty. I have witnessed a lot of people going from the extreme of bashing vegans to becoming one and admitting that they felt guilty and that is the reason they were so hostile in the first place.

It's not guilt. It's irritation that again somebody is trying to convert, witness, etc etc. Does live and let live mean anything to you? Everybody with a cause tries to preach. People for and against the ethical treatment of animals. Environmentalists and anti-environmentalists. Religious fanatics. The preaching and conversion has got to stop. I'm not trying to come off as angry here but the whole idea of trying to convert others because you feel strongly about something is plain silly. There are things I feel strongly about but I know I will never convince or convert other people to those causes - nor should I. I would like to elicit some understanding but that is not the same as getting them to agree. I do understand that veganism is important to some people, and that's great... as long as it goes no further and doesn't become about preaching that it is the 'right' and 'only' way to be. It is for you and that is enough. It may not be for other people and that is life.

Hello, Deb. It is not tough to eat what vegans eat. Not in the least. Why are people always saying that? Preparing food has never been easier for me! What would be difficult to do is eat something knowing it had to die for you and knowing the conditions it was raised in and the torture it endured and witnessed. Yes, I can get preachy, can't I? I find myself constantly fighting between my own beliefs and the beliefs of others. Just as anyone who witnessed rape, torture, and murder of humans would not be supportive of it, I am not supportive of the rape, torture, and murder of animals. I cannot sit idly by. Most find that annoying, but there are always the few who are open to seeing the "truth" and changing their lives to live cruelty-free and that is a beautiful thing. I try to refrain from "attacking" people by saying they are murderers, etc. I do not talk like that to people because that is not how I see them. I merely try to speak with facts and it is hard to deal with people who can see what is out there and not care, or not care enough to make any changes in themselves. That makes me sad, but that is life.

Yes, it is the converting and the whole 'murdering' that gets to me. People simply have different perceptions of the same thing and neither group is going to change the others' minds. It's like the environmental issue and the folks that try to get everybody to go green. I guess if you want a compost heap in your yard, go ahead but I don't see it your way lol! As long as nobody is trying to convert me, I am happy. I don't want to be converted, neither do I want to convert anybody else. I just want each person to make individual choices to provide happiness for themselves in this life.

Anti-meat is not the same as anti-meat eater. Either way, I am not anti-meat, but I am vegan.

I only have something against preachy people =P I can barely conceive of the idea of life without dairy, I will go nuts if you try to take away my cheese.

My daughter makes the meal exactly as she would for her family except she adds a little wider variety of veggies for her daughter's friend.

Too bad cause I am intrigued as to their reasons. Do you think they are afraid vegans would come an take away their meat? I am curious, so I'll ask: If there was a farm where the animals were treated as they should be, would you eat yoghurt or cheese produced there?

I would never eat any animal products regardless of how they are raised or treated because I do not believe that animals are here for us to "use" in any way. Also, it disgusts me. That said, I do not think it is "wrong" to eat animal products or meat that comes from such a place. I think that these smaller farms should be supported, but alas, people want their cheap meat, they want their fast food, and I fear that factory farms will soon be the just about the ONLY place to get these products. It scares me.

Oh yeah, people will hate anything... I doubt anyone will actually come forward and admit it in this discussion. They would probably prefer to do it when their opinion is NOT asked...

LOL Thanks for that sweety but honestly you don't need to spare me! I did not mean to imply that you were out there the way some vegans are judging others on what they eat etc just as I do not judge others for not believing in God! I was just trying to illustrate that there are small minorities in every 'belief group' (for want of a better phrase) that do go over the top and that do besmirch the way that other people view them as a whole! I know I am not wording this very well as I am very tired but I hope you get my drift! xxx

Oh yeah, I definitely get your drift. In the "vegan" group, they are called "militant vegans" and they can be rather scary... but I respect that they feel so strongly. I fear one day I may end up on that "dark side" if I don't hold myself back sometimes...

I think that sometimes I am seen as a "preachy" "argumentative" and "aggressive" vegan, to which I say BAHAHA! I never call people names based on what they eat. I think it is wrong to call someone a "murderer", etc... I do not stalk discussions looking for people to bash. If I did then I would be going through all of the discussions on "chicken," "steak," "seafood," etc. I see them, but I just skip riiight over them. But I do have strong beliefs that to participate in the killing of animals for food is wrong. I think once someone knows the truth about the way animals are treated they have a responsibility to at the very least support smaller, non-factory farms. If they choose not to then I lose respect for that person's dietary choices. Most people are simply uninformed and I do not blame them. The time I come out of the woodwork and seemingly "attack" another is when they say hypocritical things. For example, "I love all animals, but I still eat meat." That just doesn't work. It can't and it is illogical. Another example, "I think it is wrong to torture animals on factory farms, but I just like my steak, I can't help it." It is not about getting my "beliefs" out there the way a Christian would, for example, because I am dealing with absolute facts. The existence of God and what is in the bible is up for interpretation, but the way animals are treated every day on factory farms are simply facts. I think it is important for people to know what the facts are to act as they see fit. I could go on, but I will spare you...

I'm glad you asked about the honey thing. To spare you with my long explanation, I will just point you in the direction of this website: http://www.vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm Honestly, honey is the least of my worries. I never really liked it anyway, so I just don't eat it. By the way, more honey bees are not a bad thing (obviously) but why do we have to take their honey? They can live without us taking it... It seems people forget that raising animals takes grains!!! So not only are the animals taking up land, they are taking up resources, too. We feed animals grains and then eat the animal and get much less out of the grain than we would have if we just ate it ourselves. Nothing bothers me more (okay maybe that's not true, but..) than a person who becomes veg*n without knowing how to do it properly. Especially if they become ill from it and start going on a rampage saying it is unhealthy for everyone!! Ugh. I have studied nutrition for 5 years and almost got a degree in dietetics, but decided to change majors at the last minute. I am a nutrition minor and I am always taking new nutrition courses. I have a lot of knowledge about how to eat healthy. The more you know the more frustrating it is to deal with people who don't, but think they do...

Mommyboo- Yes, that is how I feel. I do not think we should use animals in any way. In fact, you might be interested to hear my opinions on pets... but that is another story for another day. Maybe when I work up the courage to make a discussion about it since I know it will be attacked up and down and left and right. In regard to bees, as I said honey is the least of my worries when it comes to animal rights. Did you look at the website I posted about it at all? It's pretty interesting.

I totally disagree with some people who say all vegetarians or vegans are unhealthy! I'm sure that plenty of them ARE healthy and do just fine. I am noticing though that you really disagree with people taking anything from animals. I happen to enjoy honey occasionally and I see nothing wrong with using it. I do not think it is an affront to the bees for taking it, in fact, they probably don't even care. Not in the way a human would care if somebody broke into their house and stole a prized possession. =)

First of all, people who eat fish are NOT EVER vegetarians. They might say they are, but they are not. You do not need meat to survive. This is a fact, but many people refuse to believe it. You can get all of the nutrients the human body needs from vegan foods with the exception of B-12. There are specific reasons why B12 is only available in animal products at this point, but that was not always the case. If you want to know why, just ask. Vegans do not have higher rates of anemia than non-vegans. This is also a fact. There is a myth that vegans are at risk of becoming anemic more-so than others, but that is not true. Vegetarians who take extra supplements are NOT eating to meet their nutritional needs. It is completely unnecessary to take supplements on a vegan diet as long as you are eating the right things. It is not hard. People are just lazy and uninformed. Your "excuses" are unfortunately not based on fact, my friend. But it is difficult to "convince" people that some of these things are myths because it is so ingrained in their heads that meat is necessary, meat is good, meat meat meat meat ahhhh! No harm needs to be done to the animal to get milk?! That IS true, but unfortunately that is not always the case! Forcing pregnancy on cows to give milk year round, taking their babies away straight after birth to be sold for veal, the mother's crying out for their children (anyone who has witnessed this knows how sad it is), the milk needed by the calf taken away for humans to consume... Not to mention the complications that can occur with the cows' udders, the nutrients they are losing by giving so much milk, the hormones they are pumped with, and how much shorter their lifespans are than a cow raised in more "humane" settings. Dairy products... don't even get me started. First of all the calcium you get from milk is hardly absorbed due to the high protein levels in foods meat eaters eat. It is not the best source of calcium out there, not to mention most people in the world are lactose intolerant and do not even drink it. It is not necessary... Here is a good article on mllk, if you are interested: http://www.notmilk.com/kradjian.html "Milk is very important for good bones and people who don't drink enough milk are a lot more likely to be brittle bone disease." It's unfortunate that you think this is a fact, as it simply is not. Animal proteins leach calcium from bones. Plant proteins do not. Non-vegans lose more calcium in general than vegans. I wish those who feel the need to spread false information like this would do their research. I am not trying to be rude, but I have studied nutrition for 5 years and am knowledgeable on this subject. I do not doubt that you do not believe me about what the truth is about these products, but I have done my research and I work with facts, not propaganda from dairy and meat companies. Vegans are silly? Oh dear! No reason to cut out dairy? Thanks for the laugh. If you want to back anything you have stated in your response up with actual FACTS, I am all ears!

Wow, a very complex and emotive response. I'm not a nutrionist, just a biologist, but meat and dairy products are very good sources of vitamins and minerals and ok, though you don't have to eat meat and dairy to survive, it does help as it is a very good source of what you need. Like with anything, it's all about getting a balanced diet. If you say that you don't need supplements as a vegan, well i can't argue with what you personally eat, though the vegans i know all have supplements to help. Maybe they are misinformed? But then, surely it's kinda dangerous to choose a lifestyle you don't know enough about (speaking in general). Anyway i don't really have an issue with either veggies or vegans, you eat what you want to a certain extent, but i just never understood the point of cutting out dairy. As for getting dairy products hurting the animals, well that all depends on what farming practices are put in place, and it does vary greatly! Not all of them use hormones and chemicals to produce more diary, not all of them steal the calves to sell as veal you know! The animals naturally produce these products and they have to be dealt with one way or another. When they had limitations on the amount of milk and dairy farmers could sell (a very complex EU thing based purely on economics) the farmers still had to milk the cows and this milk was often just being thrown down the drain! And as stated above, farming practices vary greatly (both in how they get dairy and meat). As for most people being lactose intolerant. Well i don't know the global figures, but it does vary a lot depending on where you live. In the UK it is relatively rare and to be honest, based a lot on how people are brought up. For example, my sister was slightly lactose intolerant as a baby, but my mum realised and stopped giving her ordinary milk for a year or so. When she started giving her milk again, she was fine and is grown up now and happily eating dairy. As for milk being a good source of calcium, as stated above i'm no dietician, but whenever i read about vitamins and minerals from chemists, doctors etc in this country (no, not the media, i don't listen to them very often!!) they always state that milk is one of the best sources of calcium! Not got time to hunt down lots of internet refs (and i doubt you'd look at them anyway - lol) but here's just one i found - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6898103.stm And please don't get me started on the damaging environmental implications of most arable farming practices around the world, suffice to say, you say yo don't eat meat/dairy because it's bad for the animals, well eating commercially grown veg can be just as bad for the environment!!

quote: ..people are just lazy and uninformed end quote. A little harsh, no? Even if I spend my time becoming informed, it may not cause me to feel the same way. I have been reading these responses and comments and it doesn't make me more concerned for the plight of animals or make me think twice about dairy products. I don't tend to drink milk alone but I do cook with it. Again I feel like all of this is a personal choice and a personal choice only. It needs to remain that way. I can say that I don't appreciate lab tests being done on rats all the time because 1. rats are nothing like humans biologically so whatever products cause the rats to get sick or die really doesn't begin to cover the human condition. 2 rats are so much smaller and they give them so much more than a human would ingest or be exposed to over a LIFETIME, no wonder they are affected and in such horrible ways. Anyway, I would rather we stop using animals to test things on than have a fit about eating them.

Oops, that should read "big meat eater".

Ohh! thanks for clearing that up for me (the differences). Yeah, she was a strange one alright... but, to each it's own i suppose!

I would never make a scene when someone eats meat. That would be a lot of scenes and I simply don't have that kind of time That girl sounds strange. I am always disappointed to hear people wanting to try meat again just because they haven't had it in awhile (if they abstain from eating it for ethical reasons, that is.) The difference between vegans and vegetarians - vegetarians do not eat meat, vegans do not eat anything that comes from an animal (milk, egg, honey, other by-products.)

Thank you. It seems rare to find a meat-eater who understands that vegans can be healthy

Hi wooitsmolly! haha..My hubby and I knows what it does to our bodies that is why we are trying to avoid it as much as we can and if we find ourselves eating meat, we make sure we eat pineapple so that we will have proper digestion and elimination and the following day, we try to detox. Take care and God bless! happy mylotting!

Beans and lentils, tofu, seeds (I love nuts, too, but darn are they expensiiive), peanut butter and peanuts. Plus, if people have any space to grow their own plants like beans, that can cut down costs (although dried beans are super cheap anyway.) I think that's cool that you eat from your property. I live in an apartment and all we have growing around are dandelions...lol.

I like lentils, but in beef broth (I know, I'm terrible). Dandelions, it they aren't poluted, you can do all kinds of stuff with them. Spring-eat the early leaves one or two inches long in a salad with other greens (great greens stretcher). Later spring, get water rolling boil and plunge leaves in, have another container of water boiling, strain leaves out, put them in the second container of boiling water (dont heat water with plants in, you close the cells instead of open them, so you keep the stuff in, instead of get it out). Serve with vinegar and fake bacon bits or vegan sausage. Buds, bread and fry. Flowers, pancakes or fritters (yellow part you rip out only) crowns (just below the surface)-tempera roots-fall only, dry, roast, and grind for coffee substitute. Do you know an entire island survived on them during a drought?

Uh. That last statement is incorrect. What are animals fed? Plants. It takes a lot more grain to feed animals and we get a lot less food out of it. I suggest if you really believe there would be a food shortage that you look it up and find out the truth on that matter. I am not in the mood to write everything out. If you want sources, I could find them for you. I am not implying that everyone should be vegan at all. I am also not saying anything about farms like the ones that are around you. That man sounds like he is just concerned with factory farming. I don't blame him, but I don't think the way he goes about it is right at all. That never helps anything. The majority of meat does come from factory farms, though and most people don't even consider where their meat comes from (most people do not have or live near farms like you.) The conditions there are as disgusting as was probably on that video, but obviously he was showing it to the wrong people.

I stand corrected. I didnt think you were trying to tell people to be vegan..just getting others opinions I'm sure theres factory farms somewhere but i honestly havent seen any in saskatchewan.

When did I try to determine another person's choice? Please point it out to me because I don't believe I have done that at all anywhere.

I am aware that humans are omnivores. I am not living under a rock and I am quite informed about the human body and nutrition. On the same token, what do you mean by "meant to"? Meant to by whom? What decides what we are "meant to" do? It is obvious that humans can not only survive, but thrive, and be healthy on a diet without meat, so the argument that we are meant to eat it is null and void.

As in the definition of omnivore - meaning you eat both or all. You don't HAVE to but I'm talking about the way we as mammals are designed. People can do basically anything they want, it's great that we have all these choices but to try to determine another person's choice... that isn't great.