"Religion's for people afraid of hell...... Spirituality's for people who've.."

@James72 (26829)
Australia
May 5, 2009 12:18am CST
I read the following quote online this morning: "Religion is for people who are afraid of hell and spirituality is for people who have been to hell and back." It wasn't stated who came up with the original quote, but it was uttered by a celebrity when she made a broad comment about organised religion. What say you? Is it an accurate statement in your opinion?
23 people like this
56 responses
• Philippines
5 May 09
I think the person who said that was trying to imply that he know so much about spirituality and hell. Well, my idea is, maybe he was just trying to impress people, showing off that he/she know something beyond human mentality.
6 people like this
@urbandekay (18312)
5 May 09
Yes, well said all the best urban
4 people like this
@James72 (26829)
• Australia
5 May 09
I'm trying to find who said it originally, but in this instance it was used as a brief retort to a question about whether they were religious or not. I found it to be an interesting comment because I too am not a fan of organized religion. The spirituality comment rings true to some degree for me as well. Personally I feel that the entire statement actually does have some merit. It's of course not a black and white situation, but there are arguably truths in the words.
4 people like this
• United States
5 May 09
I know much about spirituality and hell iceblade. I have not gained this knowledge studying books on religion, although I have read a few. I have gained this knowledge by going within to seek my answers, by listening to my heart and following my dreams. Granted, I am a showoff. I see myself as a trapeze artist, a circus performer, awing the crowd with my dazzling costume and stunning performance! What's wrong with that??? Just because you think you don't know something does not mean that it is unable to be known.
3 people like this
@alokn99 (5717)
• India
5 May 09
Accurate No. Not in my views James. It may be the chosen path of a few, but i still have a different view point on this. Religion in my views is a way of life and lays down a set of paths and principles to be followed in your day to day life. Spirituality :- Is an experience to start off with. It's connected with a realm within you. Those who have great experiences in this sphere are those who have actually led simplified lives. Some people who have had difficult times try and in that sense been to hell seek answers and turn to spirituality, in that sense it may be true. But it's also a fact that people once they reach a certain age also trun to it.
@James72 (26829)
• Australia
5 May 09
Personally I feel that this definitely CAN be the case for many, but it's not a statement that could be applied across the board. Especially the spirituality aspect of the quote because it can be life altering events that cause us to look for answers and solace in spirituality that we might otherwise never consider. But then again, these life events are not necessarily negatively charged either and many people seek a spiritual path because it's their destiny to do so and they;re just geared that way. It's a shame that the example I gave was uttered by a celebrity. Maybe I should have omitted that aspect and just used the quote itself? Anyways, the celebrity in question didn't make up the quote, they just repeated it. I still can't seem to find a source for the quote either.
3 people like this
@alokn99 (5717)
• India
5 May 09
I do agree with you that it is not something which may apply across the board. It may have applied to the person issuing it and may to others as well. What i expressed was my opinion and my belief. I'm not religious and have very limited experieinces on Spirituality. But let me at the same time take two examples again Buddhism as a religion and as a way of life is not mainly determined and chosen by those from fear of going to hell. I have people i know who have taken into spiritualism because of totally unexpected pleasant experiences. One of them was taking a walk in the garden admiring the beauty of nature. On the lighter side:- Religion sure easily gets people into a debate.
3 people like this
@James72 (26829)
• Australia
5 May 09
I agree totally that spirituality can be sourced from many things! I think it's a common practice though for some people to automatically equate spirituality to religion and this just isn't the case at all! It can arise from serenity itself, nature, physical practices and so many other sources. So far so good on the religious can of worms front too thank goodness! You just never know what can come of starting discussions in this category though! Why the lighter note reference too by the way? Did we get sombre somewhere?
3 people like this
@urbandekay (18312)
5 May 09
No and so often spirituality is just a cover for self-indulgence andnarsassism. Besides celebrities are hardly the best people to take advice from! all the best urban
4 people like this
@James72 (26829)
• Australia
5 May 09
I certainly wouldn't be looking to celebrities for life guidance! I find the statement to be accurate on a number of levels, but not necessarily correct in entirety. I'm still searching for an original source of the quote to see whether it was said by someone of known credibility or not. Once I find out who said it at first, I'll of course share the answer.
2 people like this
@urbandekay (18312)
5 May 09
Thank you for your well argued and researched comment - NOT! all the best urban
2 people like this
• United States
5 May 09
Irish,
2 people like this
@mimpi1911 (25454)
• India
5 May 09
I quite agree with this James. Being a person who believes more in spirituality than religion I think 'religion' is too often profaned. It has been so from time immemorial. Liberation, reaching out that could be achieved through purgative enlightening in the process of spiritual upliftment helps in understanding the nuances of religion better. Most people are religious and fearfully so. And I quite endorse the view of the celebrity.
4 people like this
@James72 (26829)
• Australia
5 May 09
I fond merit in the statement too, but not on an all encompassing level. The hell, fire and brimstone mentality definitely exists in a number of religions for one; and I do also agree that negative events in a person's life can drive them towards seeking solace of a spirtual nature. On the flip side though, there are of course many, many other reasons why an individual would go down either a religious or spiritual path and these reasons have no relevance to this quote at all. As always, there are pro's and con's that are just as convincing as each other!
2 people like this
@mimpi1911 (25454)
• India
5 May 09
The basis of all religion is undoubtedly disarming and uplifting. Having said this, how may actually follow their religion truly? That perturbs me and when I agree to the statement there I take religion as a degraded form and not the pure bliss that it was intended to. I agree with you James.
3 people like this
@James72 (26829)
• Australia
5 May 09
Very good point here mimpi. As always, interpretation rules the roost and self-serving attitudes drive people to find reasonings that constantly deviate from the fundamentals of many texts. It'll never change either!
2 people like this
@Ravenladyj (22937)
• United States
5 May 09
I'm a spiritual person and havent been a religous one in many yrs and I can honestly say that ya I agree with it....but I dont think its something that would apply to everyone walking the face of the earth (a good chunk though LOL)...
4 people like this
@James72 (26829)
• Australia
5 May 09
I consider myself to be somewhat spiritual too, but have no affiliation with any particular religion at all either. A "good chunk" is pretty accurate if you ask me, but definitely not in entirety! Ain't us humans wonderfully flawed! lol.
3 people like this
@Ravenladyj (22937)
• United States
6 May 09
Ain't us humans wonderfully flawed! lol. well we all gotta have a hobby right?! I guess being flawed is a pretty popular one!
1 person likes this
@James72 (26829)
• Australia
6 May 09
I much prefer it compared to crocheting that's for sure!
@p1kef1sh (45640)
5 May 09
I like a little spirituality after my religion James. My Teachers rang loud as Bells on a White Horse in GlenMorangie with that one! Too deep for me my friend. I'm more fluffy bunnies and picnics!
4 people like this
@TLChimes (4842)
• United States
5 May 09
picnics of fluffy bunnies? ewwww Oh wait that's not what you said... sorry...
3 people like this
@James72 (26829)
• Australia
5 May 09
Yes, but are Nuns serving the food at the picnic? And there's little too deep for you Mr Pike, but I shall hop off to join the fluffy bunnies regardless I think!
2 people like this
• Indonesia
5 May 09
basicly people hold religion with fear reason, fear of God, fear have no guide, fear have no saviour, fear they will not go to heaven, including of what you say, they follow religion blindly.
4 people like this
@James72 (26829)
• Australia
5 May 09
I've never understood blind faith to be honest. As far as I'm concerned, questioning your faith ultimately makes it stronger! Either that or it allows you to make conscientious choices that enable you to seek a truer path for yourself.
3 people like this
@novataylor (6572)
• United States
5 May 09
I don't know that I could define religion or spirituality, Jamesy, but I do know that I ain't got no religion, but I consider myself a very spiritual person, and I have more faith in my little finger than most people have in their entire lives. I believe what I believe and I believe in it strongly. But I couldn't necessarily give you all of the tenets of my belief....it would be so hard to do....because I think that new ones happen at various times in my life, times of growth, knowledge or change, maybe....But I often wonder at people who seem to have this conpulsion to talk about and argue about their faith. It makes me wonder about how strong their faith really is if they have to hammer home their points about it, and go so far as to insult others' faiths. It's like, "methinks they doth protest too much". Ya know what I mean, darlin?
3 people like this
@James72 (26829)
• Australia
5 May 09
Jeez Nova..... You've already got rhythm, you've already got music..... Why the heck would you want anything more? Many people put spirtuality and religion in the same category when in fact they are not necessarily linked at all. Sure, religion needs spirituality to be recognised at it's full potential, but spirituality can thrive perfectly well without even the slightest presence of any religious influences at all! Some may argue against this mindset, but it's certainly how I see it. Faith is a personal thing and so is a relationship with God. I've never understood the need for people to argue about it either. Self doubt maybe and they're actually trying to keep themselves convinced? A misinterpretation of the "fisher of men" aspect of the Bible? I do understand what you mean and neither would I expect you to even TRY and provide me with the tenets of yor own beliefs. They're yours!
2 people like this
• United States
5 May 09
Geez, James, you are such a doll! Rhythm, music, hee hee, yer funny... And yes, who ARE they trying to convince with their ranting and prostheletizing.(sp?) It ALWAYS makes me wonder that exact question. And that's also why I stay farrrrr out of religious discussions. This one I knew was safe, as it's yours and you're one person I know I don't have to argue with, thank goodness. I don't like getting into arguments here or anywhere else, frankly. And pushing my opinions on someone is just something I don't care to do. It's pointless. I'm not going to change anyone's mind and I'm only going to make myself upset. I much prefer 'rhythm and music' to arguments. Let's just keep dancin, darlin, eh?
4 people like this
@James72 (26829)
• Australia
5 May 09
I don't mind the occasional argument, I just argue differently is all! I commend anyone that ispassionate about their faith and believes wholeheartedly in whatever it is they believe. Just don't force it on me or become aggressive if I don't happen to feel the same way! Imagine how wonderful the world could become if people could just BE and let others do the same.
2 people like this
• United States
5 May 09
I consider myself spiritual but I would never be enticed into becoming the member of an organized religion ever again. I won't be fooled again! The thing is that the warnings are clear all through the teachings throughout our history the dangers of such organizations. The agenda's that can be pushed when one group even a minority can manage some sliver of control in order to obtain more power over others. Substitute any label for the word 'authority' be the label church leader, lobbyist, special interest group, individual seeking control, any number of combination's exist, you could insert the word judge or detective maybe even lawyer or director of the Area Agency on Aging. The 'authority' working to inflict their will upon others through the concept of discrimination creates a bias against either the minority or the majority. From a higher plane we can see below to know the truth and to follow the truth to the point of origin. This is where organized religion takes a fall. I'm sure you expected my opinion to be something on this line of thinking against all organized religions due to their abuse of powers. We do not have to die for our beliefs... Too many organized religions have twisted this into we have to die or kill and that is a lie. What is true is that we all live and have physical being and as such we will all die, our physical self will die but our spiritual being can live on forever.
3 people like this
@James72 (26829)
• Australia
5 May 09
I would have expected your opinion to be along these lines, yes. The issue I find personally is that organized religion takes on this role of making decisions for the masses and dictating what is supposedly righteous etc; and this is not necessarily in the best interests of everyone concerned. There's a big difference between guidance and control! After many years involved with various Churches and other entities that would fall under the "organized" umbrella, I came to the conclusion that it was my own personal discovery that lead to my OWN faith and beliefs that mattered. Both of these things needed to be determined and then strengthened by ME, not dictated to me to the point of me being chastised if I dared to stray away from any of it. What is one man's truth is not going to always be the truth of another! All the above hasn't even taken into account the commercialization aspect of it all either. It seems that the more "organized" a religion becomes, the further it deviates from it's fundamental purity.
3 people like this
• United States
5 May 09
I so much agree... I need to get some things done now, I'll come back later in a few hours...
3 people like this
@James72 (26829)
• Australia
5 May 09
Enjoy!
3 people like this
@sid556 (31005)
• United States
5 May 09
In my opinion, it is pretty darn accurate! Great quote!
3 people like this
@James72 (26829)
• Australia
5 May 09
You've seen my earlier comment about my middle-road opinion on it, but I too feel there is signicant truth to this statement in that it does describe many instances in this world. Thank goodness it's not all!
2 people like this
@paula27661 (15899)
• Australia
5 May 09
I am in two minds about the quote. I think I can see what it's implying but then again I don't think it is entirely accurate. There are people who claim to be religious but have hearts of stone and there are people who have found religion and it has saved their lives. Spiritual people can be following a trend or feel true faith in their hearts. I don't think you can place labels. There are atheists who don't believe and yet do great things for others such as Irish anti-poverty campaigner Bob Geldof. There are members of the underworld who kill all week and take their wives and children to church on Sundays. It is a too broad a statement.
3 people like this
@James72 (26829)
• Australia
5 May 09
I tend to agree with you Paula. It has merit on many levels, yet is lacking in others and is too broad a comment to be applied as a constant. People by nature tend to twist things to either justify their actions or to support any given cause and that's just further proof of how open to interpretation religion can be! Your underworld reference supports that angle too. Spirtuality also doesn't follow a stereotypical path by any sense of the imagination. What inspires spirituality in one person may not necessarily inspire it in another and it can exist in it's purest form without any religious affiliation whatsoever. Once again, it's subjected to numerous interpretations as well!
2 people like this
@mands61123 (2098)
6 May 09
hey hun i'm not much up for religion i dislike how people twist and change it to suit their own bigotry and bias but i do agree that when you have been though so much and come through it the other end most people have at least some incklings of spirituality because if they didn't they wouldn't have made it though sane. I mean how else do you accept things like your child dying or a parent with cancer unless theres a bigger picture it has to mean something otherwise it's just to brutal and senseless.
2 people like this
@James72 (26829)
• Australia
6 May 09
Heya mands. I find fault in organized religion structures using this as one of the reasons too. It's too interpretive at times and many people manipulate the core foundations to serve hypocritical and selfish agendas. I do believe in God and also believe everything happens for a reason too, but I sure don't need rules, regulations and defined paths limiting my ability to think freely and come to my own conclusions. True spirituality can only come from free thought and introspection in my opinion and many religious entities do not allow this to happen. My own truths need to be uncovered and then embraced by ME, not handed to me in a "one size fits all" format!
1 person likes this
6 May 09
couldn't have put it better babes alot of bit from different religions fit and alot don't. I went to church when i was younger but felt sad when alot of my own beliefs were critiscised because they didn't come out of the good book. I didn't agree with the negativity against gays and the constant preaching of punichment by god and many of my beliefs ring true for me and feel right and I don't necessarily have an answer for but they explain things for me and i am happy that way. Musics the only religion I follow I believe in a bigger picture and that everything happens for a reason and that there is a higher entity if people choose that to be GOd then thats fine with me i prefer not to label. I am much more drawn to negativity and acceptance which you rarely find when someone is very devout because for some reason it becomes bery black and white and very right or wrong. I only responded to the discussion because it was yours as usually I avoid anything to do with politics or religion because I can not be mithered with the who haaa that errupts on the board within them. People often do not respect the opinion of others or allow them the chance to have their say and that kind of thing really makes me annoyed so i usually just stay away.
2 people like this
6 May 09
*positivity that should be* gawd i sound like a peace loving hippy ha ha ha I just like to be able to think and choose for myself without being told how wrong that is thats all. I don't distinguish by race creed or colour simply by energy and the personality of the person.
2 people like this
• United States
5 May 09
Wow! This is my new favorite quote! I don't care who originally said it! The truth of it is plain to see... for those who have been to hell and are back again anyway. Those that are still walking around dazed and confused, shackled by their own beliefs, and have not made it back home yet, do not seem to have such an easy time recognizing the truth in all things... including this quote, hehehe. Your discussion has reminded me of that Steve Earle song "I Feel Alright"... the last line of the song is "... I've been to hell and now I'm back again."
2 people like this
@James72 (26829)
• Australia
5 May 09
Ah, so the sleeping giant awakens as James finally finds a topic that is of interest! I've tried search after search to see who DID say it originally because I really would like to know! No luck yet though. And now I have to try and find that Steve Earle song too! Time for me to prepare a weekend to-do list again..... Personally I find considerable merit in the quote, yet I can also find it flawed in that it's certainly not an all encompassing truth. The bottom line for me is that we each have the God given right to pursue whatever path we choose and no mortal has any right to deny our right to do so. All rules and regulations do is limit our ability to seek! By the way, did Steve Earle make any reference to the duty free range there?
2 people like this
@James72 (26829)
• Australia
6 May 09
Thanks for the lyrics and link zig! I'm at the office at the moment, but I'll check this video out tonight. The first line of the song by the way, thank goodness he was born his Father's son. Imagine the explaining he would have had to do his entire life if he hadn't of been! He used the word contraband too and you can't help but appreciate that. lol.
1 person likes this
• United States
6 May 09
Precious contraband... even better! Yep, he can tell me ancient tales from distant lands any day!
1 person likes this
@dawnald (84148)
• Shingle Springs, California
5 May 09
I haven't the slightest idea since I am neither...
2 people like this
@James72 (26829)
• Australia
5 May 09
Very profound Dawn! lol. The interesting thing is that if you take certain letters from both words and add a U, you can create the word "spurios"! For anyone not knowing the definition, this means: "not genuine, authentic, or true; not from the claimed, pretended, or proper source" I have no idea where that angle came from in my mind, but hey, I crap on!
2 people like this
@dawnald (84148)
• Shingle Springs, California
5 May 09
Who knows where the mind goes when it wanders... There, was that profound or spurious...
2 people like this
@James72 (26829)
• Australia
6 May 09
I think it's a mixture of both actually!
• United States
5 May 09
it seems to me the whole purpose of this quote is to satisfy the people who have sworn off religion as it isn't cool to be apart of yet don't want to admit being atheist. basically there has been this theme in pop culture that you have to believe in something, you just don't have to tell us what it is.
2 people like this
@James72 (26829)
• Australia
5 May 09
Interesting angle! Would you see this as pop culture though? I tend to think of it more as people actually thinking for themselves for once and maybe it's best to keep quiet about whatever beliefs they have because of a lack of tolerance and understanding from others? Just because someone doesn't believe in an organized religion's ideal of God doesn't make them an atheist either! Agnostic arguably, but not atheist. I personally believe in God, just not in the same context as dictated by organized religions.
1 person likes this
@ra1787 (501)
• Italy
5 May 09
One doesn't necessarily have to follow someone else's beliefs to have a true one. One can have his own spirituality. Not believing in religion is completely different from not believing in anything. What is really sad is that while people with strong personal spirituality are usually quite tolerant towards other, people who follow a religion tend to be too sure to be in the right to even listen to what other people believe. I am not telling you are one of these i am just saying that spirituality doesn't necessarily need to be organized in some kind of religion to be worth of respect.
2 people like this
@James72 (26829)
• Australia
6 May 09
I agree with you here ra. As far as I'm concerned, the more a person is at ease with their chosen path, the less desire they'd have to try and hammer it home with someone else! What I believe personally is for me, it's been determined by me based on my own reflections and introspection. Why should I feel the need to make others believe the same? The intolerance shown by some who follow organised religion is in complete defiance of the very way of life many scriptures describe too. Each to their own and let's be accepting of this always I say! If it's not hurting another, why should others be so concerned?
1 person likes this
@cyberfluf (5005)
• Netherlands
5 May 09
I don't follow the rules and lay-down paths of one single religion, I am interested in many forms of religion and spirituality and I try to find my own trueth within them. Therefor I would refer to myself as a spiritual person other than a religous person. I do not follow the rules and guideliness of a faith as strict as they should be, but I do believe in helping others, being thankfull and things similar to this that are also carried out in most religions. I find it hard to give an opinion on this one, I do see some logic in the statement because people who have been to hell and back (I guess) won't take an outlined path so easily but are more reflective and fylosofic perhaps and take their own path. Please note that I do find nothing wrong with religion persé, but I do think it is good to find out who you are and what you are destined to do before you set your mind to a specific way of life.
@James72 (26829)
• Australia
5 May 09
Me too! I've followed singular paths before and quite seriously too, but in the end I found solace in learning as much as I could about many different faiths and belief systems. Why can't a person embrace all in some form or another? And your last point will get no argument from me either. We all need to be FREE to discover ourselves and our destiny. Organized structures that we are out under pressure to follow, really do limit our ability to do this. Nice to see you cyberfluf.
2 people like this
@cyberfluf (5005)
• Netherlands
5 May 09
It's good to see you around, James. I enjoy discussions that make us overthink our own believes and ways of living. You are most likely to discover a new side of yourself or realize that you have a very good reason to feel the way you feel, or perhaps it's the other way around and you will change your believes. Either way reflecting gives us valuable information about ourselves. Thanks for your lovely response!
2 people like this
@James72 (26829)
• Australia
5 May 09
It sure does! I said in an earlier reply that "pondering is manna for the soul!" and that it is. Introspection and life reflection allow us to grow as people. Based on this alone, we should be free to do so without fear or limitations.
1 person likes this
@Amberina (1541)
• United States
5 May 09
I totally agree I think that it is very well said.
2 people like this
@James72 (26829)
• Australia
5 May 09
I'm on the fence with it actually. I believe that it definitely applies in many instances, but not entirely!
1 person likes this
@sid556 (31005)
• United States
5 May 09
Your right james. People can go to church and still be spiritual. I think it was meant for a certain type of church goers.
2 people like this
@James72 (26829)
• Australia
6 May 09
Heya sid. Did you mean people can NOT go to Church and still be spiritual, or did I misread you here? If this is what you DID mean, then I agree totally. If anything, all these organized structures do is allow for labels to be placed on everything and then controls to be effected. Not in all cases of course, but it's a common theme in many instances.
@worldwise1 (14887)
• United States
6 May 09
I can't say that I fully agree with that statement, James, because I feel that religion is a necessary thing for those who wish to identify with a certain sect, while spirituality is all about ones feeling of being connected with their Higher Power. In my opinion, you don't have to have religion to achieve that connection. Some people need religion in order to publicly affirm their faith. Many others do not. I guess what I'm really trying to say is that if we truly carry the church within our hearts there is no need to visit an institution on a regular basis unless we desire that human contact with people of like minds.
2 people like this
@James72 (26829)
• Australia
6 May 09
Nicely stated worldwise! I don't FULLY agree with it either, but I do think it has significant merit in many instances I've witnessed myself. I agree totally with you that what we carry within has far more bearing than anything externally placed to supposedly guide us! God IS everywhere after all!
1 person likes this
• United States
6 May 09
What happens to the minds of the likes that would medicate the good to protect the bad? Warning, warning! Please, Step away from the church... The crutch of evil... But I just wrote above what is in my heart? I don't want to see anyone else get hurt... See! That is me trying to protect others from harm...
2 people like this
@CanadaGal (4304)
• Canada
6 May 09
I quite like that statement, and find it rings true for me as well. When I was growing up, my religion didn't teach me to fear God, but I did teach me to fear going to hell. That's what it was all about to me... do good, so you can go to heaven and not hell. Yes, and then came the "hell on earth" experiences, many in my adulthood. My religion wasn't enough for me during those times. The things I'd been taught, didn't seem to apply anymore (mainly, if "God" was always there for me, why did he make me go through that crap?). I slowly became more spiritual. More aware of my own power in affecting the outcomes of situations and circumstances. I cannot think of a way to describe more of my views on spirituality, but I do feel that just like religion, it is very individual, and varies from person to person. Either way, I do like that quote, and I think it's a fairly wise statement.
@James72 (26829)
• Australia
6 May 09
I wasn't brought up in a religious setting at all, but by birth I'm a Christian. (Anglican) It was never forced on me, nor was I hammered with story's of hell or even Heaven for that matter! lol. I did go down a serious religious path for around 3 years when I was in my late teens/early 20's, but like you've shared, it wasn't enough for me either. I ended up looking into many faiths and many belief systems and eventually found my OWN truth that works for me. It DOES vary from person to person because our lives and motivations are all so different. The furstrating aspect of it all is the lack of tolerance by some people who just can't accept that we have been granted free will and have every right to exercise it.
@makingpots (11922)
• United States
5 May 09
I choose to just speak from my own situation on this one, if that's okay.... Religion didn't work so well for me. I needed to leave it which I battled doing for years because of my fear of hell. Once I left, it took a period of pure hell to get me to spiritualality which ultimately opened for me a desire for an all-loving B(b)eing. Something I never really learned from religion. So, yes, from where I'm standing, that is a true statement. And this was an awesome discussion.
2 people like this
@James72 (26829)
• Australia
6 May 09
Of course it's ok! (Just this once though. lol) I battled with trying to embrace orgamized religion too, but I certainly had no fear of hell, so this wasn't a factor. For me the issues arose more because of so many unanswered questions and being expected to just accept things and follow a line, even though I didn't really feel a connection to what was being taught or preached. The end result is an open minded attitude that embraces facets of many beliefs. It works for me, so GOOD for me I say! I'm happy to see that you too found what works for you and were able to get to that place freely.