who are the "majority of americans"?

@irisheyes (4373)
United States
March 22, 2010 8:14am CST
This is something that has been bugging me for awhile. I keep hearing stats on here that indicate the majority of Americans do not want the presidents healthcare reform but I can't figure out who comprise this majority. Those of us who voted for the president knew healthcare reform was on the agenda. It was a campaign promise and part of the reason we voted for him. We gave him a clear majority. There was no recount necessary for that election. Therefore, in 2008 the majority of the country supported healthcare reform and elected Obama to carry it out. As far as I can tell millions of those voters have not jumped ship and gone over to the other side. We've just been waiting and watching while the pres does what we put him there to do. So who are the majority? It's not the AMA or AARP. Both of those organizations are supporting the new bill and they both attempted to refute the scare tactics used to distort what was in the healthcare reform bill. Both organizations have officially supported the bill that passed last night. It's not small business people who would like to give their employees healthcare but can't afford to under the currect system. I don't even believe it's big business. Companies like Walmart and McDonalds formed their first ever coalition under a labor leader to reform healthcare. It's not Catholics although a lot has been said about their opposition to abortion and they have been told repeatedly by those opposing the bill that they cannot support it without being hypocrites. Still they gave Barack Obana a higher percentage of their vote than the population at large. So it's not them So who are these masses of Americans against healthcare reform. I've heard the statistic on Mylot quoted at 75% of Americans against the Obama bill. I read that 25,000 people came to Washington last weekend to protest healthcare reform. That sounds a bit sparse to me. Is that the most support that 75% of the American public can manage? Is anybody else starting to feel hoodwinked by a very vocal minority trying to pass noise off as genuine political clout? Yikes, I feel like a member of the silent majority waiting for the president to do what I elected him to do. Guess my protest days are through but at least I can look back on the anti war marches of the 70's and know what real majority support looked like and it certainly wasn't a crowd of 25,000.
7 people like this
20 responses
@spalladino (17924)
• United States
22 Mar 10
Those stats have bothered me as well because they have been constantly passed off as representing all Americans but they've been the results of polling and, anything less than an election, does not reflect the views of the American people. Those in opposition to this bill have been the most vocal, have been misrepresenting the facts, have been using fear mongering tactics to pass off lies as facts, and have been threatening their elected representatives the most. Everyday Americans who support this bill have also come under attack...just look at what goes on here. The vote last night said it all. No Republican dared vote in opposition to the Party. If even one Republican had voted in favor of the bill I might have believed that the rest truly were against it but, under the circumstances, I'm not buying it.
@irisheyes (4373)
• United States
22 Mar 10
The fear mongering is what bothers me the most. The irony is that the two groups used most as examples for fear tactics are doctors and retirees. Yet they are represented by the two organizations that have done the best job of dispelling the myths. The AMA and AARP both have excellent web sites trying to combat the myths about the bill both organizations support. I know they are saying that all seniors and all doctors do not support the stand of these groups. But come on, they are lobbies and we can be pretty sure they represnt the majority of their base. There's no such thing as a lobby that acts against it's own best interests. What I keep seeing is people taking one personal statistic and blowing it out of proportion to become some kind of demographic. I never knew so many people to have a Catholic friend (sister in law, neighbor etc.) It's like everybody has their own little token Catholic and that is supposed to be indicative of a major change. But the demographic is still that Catholics voted for Obama to a larger degree than the general population and I don't think one friend (cousin, sister in law etc) changes that.
2 people like this
@spalladino (17924)
• United States
22 Mar 10
The fear mongering and spread of misinformation continues today, and will continue for a long time unfortunately.
3 people like this
@spalladino (17924)
• United States
23 Mar 10
You are so correct ladybug...fear mongering is nothing new and is very effective because most people don't take the time to learn what the issues are. They'd rather be spoon fed soundbites and let others dictate what they think. It's so evident today with all the bs I keep seeing that is allegedly in the bill, yet isn't even though the OP states it as hard fact. I remember during the civil rights movement...I was a kid so I had an excuse for being stupid...people played on fear. End segregation and before you know it the black man will be stealing your job, moving in nextdoor to you and the value of your home will fall to the basement. They have diseases so you'll catch something from them! They'll rape your daughters and attack your sons in the streets. It was ugly...as ugly as it is right now. Meanwhile, black Americans marched with Dr. King and held rallies...while the white folks who were against them screamed. I am so, so ashamed of my Party right now and of so many people who are a part of it...and I've never felt this way in the 30+ years that I've been a Republican. I have no intention of backing down. The bill is not perfect but it's better than the alternative in my opinion...which was nothing.
3 people like this
• United States
22 Mar 10
Irish, it is all about how you word the survey. There was a survey out last month about the stimulus bill, over 70% disapproved of it. Then they asked the same people if they approved of certain parts of the bill, and around the same percent approved of these programs. The fact is that groups who oppose ANYTHING that Obama says can hire firms to conduct surveys with questions that they know the answer to. This is very simple, but we the people of the country know how we feel. It is the mindless few who will believe anything they read on WND, or FOX News that need to be told what to think. The vast majority of Americans already know how to use our brains.
3 people like this
@irisheyes (4373)
• United States
23 Mar 10
Absolutely, we can all come up with a poll that supports our own arguments and I admit I like the ones that support my stand. BUT I think there is a huge difference between what a poll says and what the majority of the American population thinks. I don't think a smattering of 100 people in a polarized country counts for much and I really have problems with the folks that have a friend or acquaintence of a certain persuasion and think they can project that one person's personal opinion into a demographic. Unfortunately, right now that one person is often a Catholic acquaintence who hates healthcare reform and Obama because of abortion. I've heard so many of these stories and they sound so similar that I'm beginning to wonder if it isn't the same Catholic rattling around all over the place. If that were to be the case I know a Catholic that can wipe out that demographic - ME!
@Taskr36 (13924)
• United States
23 Mar 10
"The fact is that groups who oppose ANYTHING that Obama says can hire firms to conduct surveys with questions that they know the answer to." Just like the firms you referred to cherry-picked parts of the bill to sell people instead of giving them more specific details. The bill is over 2400 pages. Naming 3 "key parts" is an easy way to make a complete piece of garbage sound good. Would you buy a 4 bedroom house if the person selling it only showed you how pretty the front door was?
@sid556 (31003)
• United States
23 Mar 10
I really don't know where these people get their numbers. They certainly are not surveying all of the American people so their figures are bound to be off. It just sounds more convincing I guess if you say that you have a "majority" on your side. Majority does not always mean that they are right. I think the word is actually used very loosely.
3 people like this
@irisheyes (4373)
• United States
23 Mar 10
Ah, that's it then. They have a loose interpretation of "majority". lol I live in a very liberal part of a very blue state but even here I could go for a short walk and find enough Republican conservatives to slant a poll. But that still wouldn't change the demagraphic for the area. It would still be a very liberal area in a blue state.
1 person likes this
@beeeckie (803)
• United States
22 Mar 10
It's bothersome that some conservative groups are acting like socialized healthcare will turn us into a socialist country. Sweden has been socialist for a very long time! Plus, lots of democratic countries (most...) have socialized health care. The U.S. privatized healthcare is one of the worst for a developed country. I cannot wait till healthcare is fully public. As for the complaints that it will raise our taxes? It'll balance out when we don't have to pay massive insurance premiums.
2 people like this
@xfahctor (14130)
• Lancaster, New Hampshire
22 Mar 10
ok...maybe you can asnwer this, since you seem to be a pretty strong supporter of this bill. Tell me what it is you like about this bill, what it does to fix healthcare and cite the relevent text from the bill to support your beliefs. Also, please cite the relevent text in the constitution that allows the federal government to mandate each citizen purchase health insurance.
@irisheyes (4373)
• United States
22 Mar 10
I'm going to hop in here and talk off the top of my head a bit. You will probably have your argument worked and thought out well, X. I haven't but off the top of my head I like a loose interpretation of the General Welfare clause although I expect the pols are going to try to slip it through as similar to taxation. that does do it for me. At least not right now. I also don't think the states rights argument is a good one because I think this may very well go to the Supreme Court and I don't think that argument will be a big hit there. I want to say it will probably go through the same way that Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare and welfare went through. I don't belief any of those things are specifically mentioned in the constitution. (Have to check to see if there was an amendment for SSA) This is a bit different because it requires payment and those programs do not (Again, SSA might be considered paid). At this point, I'd like to read what a good constitutional lawyer has to say about this but it would probably make my head spin. I'm still trying to plod through the damn bill and I've been cheating even there. I adnit I've been reading the web sites of AARP and AMA as if they were crib notes. Beeekie, I also think our healthcare system is a disgrace and I think the fact that this bill allows for people with pre-existing conditions to purchase healthcare is a major step forward. Frankly, I wish there were still a public clause but even without that I think it's a long overdue step in the right direction.
2 people like this
@beeeckie (803)
• United States
22 Mar 10
Massachusetts (my state, lovingly nicknamed Taxachusetts sometimes) mandated that everyone has health insurance a few years ago, or there will be tax penalties. THAT should have caused a large uproar. I mean, the average person simply cannot afford it if not through their job, and to get the MassHealth public care, you have to jump through hoop after hoop. Socialized health care is going to save a lot of lives, period.
3 people like this
@hofferp (4739)
• United States
22 Mar 10
If I could have afforded a trip to Washington to protest, I would have been there, as would have the other millions you wanted to see to believe we exist. Most of the majority (which has been determined by numerous surveys by a various companies/universities on both sides of the issues) was at home, carefully watching the "debate". I didn't vote for Obama (I didn't vote for Bush either) and while I'm all for health-care reform, I was, and still am, opposed to this particular over-reaching bill. My hope now is that it will be challenged in the court system and found to be unconstitutional. My hope is that the pieces of this legislation that have bipartisan support are put in to new bills, passed and implemented. My hope is that we have health-care reform with as little big government interference as possible.
2 people like this
@irisheyes (4373)
• United States
22 Mar 10
I'm going to repeat myself here but I sort of have to. I know that a lot of people could not afford to go to Washington this weekend and I understand that. But a lot of people did not attend the rallies and marches of the 1960's and 70's for the same reason and there was still enough of a gathering to send a strong statement. I didn't see that here and if 75% of America is stronggly against this bill, it should be reflected. Also, I know there have been a number of pols and one of them was the NY times pol that found 66% of the population still supported the bill. If I raise that pol's results all I'll hear is how the Times is a left wing media paper and you can't believe anything they print. Still, I'm expected to take the statistics of the opposition as gossple truth when I don't see anything substantiating those pols. Let's face it, the country is polarized right now and those pols will be different everywhere you take them. X said that he found 4 out of 5 people where he is to be against this bill. It's a very different story in my area where many people have yard signs that say "Healthcare Reform Now" and they are supporting the Obama bill. It might be an entirely different story where you live. Bottom line to me is that Barack Obama was elected by a solid margin. No hanging chads. No recount.) I don't see where millions of those voters have suddenly jumped ship and abandonned him and frankly without that happening, I don't see how there can be a huge shift against this bill.
3 people like this
@hofferp (4739)
• United States
22 Mar 10
It's how the pollster stated the questions. If you asked me am I in favor of health-care reform, I would have stated yes. If you asked me am I in favor of Obama Care, my answer would have been no. The majority who oppose the bill passed last night aren't anything like the protesters of the 60s. You're comparing apples and oranges.
1 person likes this
@irisheyes (4373)
• United States
22 Mar 10
Whoa there. lol I know they are not anything like the protesters of the sixties becuause I was one of the protesters of the 60's (Maybe early 70"s). I think we had a tremendous impact on American society and we influenced the demographics of this country. That is exactly what I do not see in this opposition. I see people taking one Catholic vote or one small vocal protest and projecting it into a seismic change within society. When it comes to protest, I don't believe you can lay claim to to reflecting a major segment of America until you get past 500,000. Twenty five thousand people just doesn't do it. Close to 2 million people went to DC to watch the inaguration of the man the majority of those people voted for. Now, we are being asked to believe that a protest of 25,000 in the same city is indicative of a major rejection of that candidate. I just don't buy that.
3 people like this
@celticeagle (120598)
• Boise, Idaho
22 Mar 10
Started to feel hoodwinked? i felt that way months ago. The silent majority is what I am thinking. No one wants to admit anything now. No one wants to vocalize on losing the fight. I am bummed this went through although I knew it was destined to. Sad. I guess I will hope for the best in my state.
@irisheyes (4373)
• United States
22 Mar 10
You thought it would go through but you did not support it. What has you the most bummed out? If you can vocalize a little bit here. I'd be sincerely interested in what you have to say and what you think would be the best thing for your state. (Idaho, I believe) You are the first person I've come in contact with who was against the bill but has not tried to convince me that it was passing in spite of the wishes of the majority of Americans.
2 people like this
@celticeagle (120598)
• Boise, Idaho
22 Mar 10
I do not listen to the news as much as I should. I have been hearing alot here and there about this new healthcare bill and it scares me! I am a strong advocate of the ongoing 'conspiracy theory'. I don't necessarily know specifics that I would be against in this bill just the fact that government has too much control over us as it is and i am very opposed to too much control. This is supposed to be a democracy.
1 person likes this
@irisheyes (4373)
• United States
22 Mar 10
I see. I'm definitely not a conspiracy theorist although I have a good friend who is just that. He says I'm naive and I say he is paranoid. Probably we are both half right.lol To be honest with you I'm struggling to read through this bill and it is tough going. I've found a lot of reassurance on web sites for the AARP and the AMA. Allegedly doctors and retirees arethe most scared and will be the most hurt by this bill. But their powerful lobbies are supporting and explaining it and they seem to me to be doing a pretty good job of dispelling the myths and scare tactics out there. I do know that misconception abounds and in almost every case the reality is not so bad. In fact in some it's a pretty good bill as far as I can see. I live in a blue state (Pennsylvania) and we are pro healthcare reform in general. Especially those of us who live around Philadelphia and have seen huge increases in healthcare premiums to foot the bill for ER healthcare in teaching hospitsls for those without healthcare. (Most everybody gets sick sometimes). If Idaho is a red state that may play into how you view this but if you do take a look at the actual bill, I don't think you will feel that it is inconsistent with a democracy. The major problem people have is the forced payment by those who can afford to pay but I think that anybody who has seen ER bills for minor ailments in teaching hospitals might view that differently. We have not had a general hospital in the metropolitan area here for over 30 years and the hospitals we have are all state of the art and super expensive. Great for neurosurgery but not so great when the bill is $2,000 to pull a splinter and give an antibiotic.
2 people like this
@Taskr36 (13924)
• United States
22 Mar 10
"Those of us who voted for the president knew healthcare reform was on the agenda." Yes, and the majority WANT healthcare reform, just not this bill. "It was a campaign promise and part of the reason we voted for him." It was also a campaign promise that he wouldn't mandate coverage and HE BROKE THAT PROMISE. You may have forgotten the way he reamed Hillary Clinton for saying she would mandate coverage. "It's not the AMA or AARP. Both of those organizations are supporting the new bill" They were bribed Irish. The AARP received over $18,000,000 in stimulus money to create ZERO jobs so they would support this bill. The AMA only represents 17% of doctors so they aren't a majority of anything. "So who are these masses of Americans against healthcare reform." Those of us that believe in and respect the constitution and don't want a government FORCING us to buy health insurance. "Is anybody else starting to feel hoodwinked by a very vocal minority trying to pass noise off as genuine political clout?" The polls have been consistent. The majority do NOT support this bill. They want healthcare reform, they just don't want this unconstitutional piece of garbage which had to be loaded down with bribes just to get other democrats to support it. http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/september_2009/health_care_reform
1 person likes this
@irisheyes (4373)
• United States
22 Mar 10
Taskr, the only way a huge majority of the Amerian population would be not supporting this bill would be if a large chunk of the people who voted for Barack Obama crossed to the other side and I do NOT see that that has happened. The AARP is a powerful lobby and as such it would make no sense whatsoever to lobby against themselves for a meagre $18,000. Are you saying that ONLT\Y 17% of doctors have a lobby? Who speaks for the rest of them and are they fighting against this bill? If they are I haven't heard about them and it would certainly give credence to your argument so where are they? You are a very vague here as far as I'm concerned. The majority of Americans are "those of us that believe in and respect the constitution and don't want a government forcing us to buy health care" What are your numbers and who are you? This tells me absolutely nothing. You are claiming to represent the majority of the population of this country and I'm supposed to accept that on your word with no demographic support whatsoever. I've heard a lot about that Rasmussen poll but I don't accept that it is the end all and every newspaper poll that says different is liberal media crap because itdoes not support your argument.
@Taskr36 (13924)
• United States
22 Mar 10
I don't know what you mean by "crossed to the other side". In case you missed it, a fair number of democrats oppose this bill. Some people who like Obama disagree with his policies. "The AARP is a powerful lobby and as such it would make no sense whatsoever to lobby against themselves for a meagre $18,000." It's $18 MILLION, not thousand and they will profit directly from this bill as they profit from insurance sales and the unconstitutional mandate guarantees an increase in sales. The $18 million was more of a down payment for their support. Why else would they get stimulus dollars, meant to create jobs, when they didn't create a single job with $18 million? http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/sep/29/ginny-brown-waite/aarp-insurance-health-reform-conflict/ "Who speaks for the rest of them and are they fighting against this bill? If they are I haven't heard about them and it would certainly give credence to your argument so where are they?" Here are some, reportedly a third may quit due to the passage of this bill. http://www.cnsnews.com/news/print/62812 "I've heard a lot about that Rasmussen poll but I don't accept that it is the end all" Well it is consistently the most accurate poll, but if you'd like a second and third poll than here you go. Quinnipac and Gallup have never been accused of being biased against democrats to my knowledge. Both are actually more favorable to democrats most of the time. http://www.gallup.com/poll/126521/Favor-Oppose-Obama-Healthcare-Plan.aspx http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1295.xml?ReleaseID=1413 You asked who the masses were that opposed this bill. I can't name and describe every individual that opposes this crap so I gave you an example of people who oppose it. People who believe in and respect the constitution support the 10th amendment and acknowledge that this violates it.
@Taskr36 (13924)
• United States
23 Mar 10
"a majority actually support the key features of the legislation" Yeah, by "key features" they mean the good parts. You show them a few lines out of a 2400+ page bill, leave out the bribes, unconstitutional mandates, tax hikes, etc. and all is good right? That's like telling someone they could get a free scooter without telling them they'd have to be a paraplegic. A free scooter sounds great!
@xfahctor (14130)
• Lancaster, New Hampshire
22 Mar 10
True, there weren't a million + people, like there was at the last big rally at the capitol protesting. But it was a last minute rally so its kind of hard to get a lot there on a weekend at the last minute. 4 out of 5 people I talked to casualy about this healthcare bill have been against it. The ones who were for it for the most part couldn't tell me what parts of it they liked or why, they only spoke in generalities that sounded pretty much like the gerneralities in Obama's and many democratic talking point speeches. This is where I get the Idea that a majorty didnt want it. Polls only confirmed it for me. I got mine from personal experience. "I feel like a member of the silent majority waiting for the president to do what I elected him to do." Ok....so what exactly did you elect him to do? Bear in mind that he can only do so much as per pour constitution, so I'm most interested in what you elected him and expect him to do?
1 person likes this
@irisheyes (4373)
• United States
22 Mar 10
Actually, X it may depend on where you and are are talking to people about this. You may be from an area of the country that is against the bil lbut I am from an area that supports it and my personal experience is that almost everybody is for it here. But the question remains, where do most people stand? It seems to me that Obama's election is an indicator that at one time most Americans wanted healthcare reform because we elected a president who promised it. And now I'm hearing that as many as 75% of Americans are against it. That means there was a huge exodus to the other side and I see no indication of that personally or in the media. You say that people who are for the bill speak in generalities. I think people who are against the bill use fear tactics and untruths to bolster their side. I make no claims to have read the whole thing yet but I'm taking stabs at it and I know for certain that there was never a threat of euthanasia or 50% loss of senior benefits. People won't have healthcare rationed any more than they now do by carriers. In fact millions who are now forced to go without coverage because of prexisting conditions will now have coverage. He's doing what I elected him to do. I was just pointing out how odd it is for this babyboomer to now be a part of a silent majority. It seems weird but I don't really mind too much because I don't have anything much to protest. I supported this bill (Like to see a public clause but can't get everything I guess), my area of the country supported it and all of our congressmen and senators seem to be voting the way we want them to vote.
3 people like this
@xfahctor (14130)
• Lancaster, New Hampshire
22 Mar 10
"He's doing what I elected him to do" So, are you saying you elected him to assume powers not enumerated in the constitution? Including continuing many of the unconstitutional things Bush did? You elected him to transform our libertarian republic in to a centralized empire with subserviant states? Im totaly serious in asking this, is this really what you wanted him to do?
@irisheyes (4373)
• United States
22 Mar 10
I'm not a liberatarian but that doesn't exactly make me a socialist. I don't think he is usurping powers from the states. I think the federal mandates supercede state mandates on a number of issues. I could point to taxes but I have a feeling you are not in favor of that federal right either. At any right, I hear that a numerber of states are planning a law suit reegarding states right vs federal supremacy. I think most constitutional lawyers would label it a nuisance lawsuit without a chance of holding up but we'll have to see. Isn't this an issue that we fought a civil war over and didn't Lincoln save the union and insure the supremacy of federal law?
3 people like this
• United States
25 Mar 10
If the polls are correct, I'd say many people who voted for Obama are now sorry they did. Maybe those people and the ones who were against him from the beginning are those "majority of Americans." Since freedom and responsibility are two hallmarks of our values here in the USA; and since this bill takes both of these values from us, how could anyone who has any respect for him/herself support this bill? When the government says you must have health insurance, or you must provide health insurance for your employees if you're a company or you'll receive a fine, that takes away your freedom of choice. When the government tells you everything is covered, you know there will be those who will take advantage of anything they think they're getting for "free," (which of course isn't free since someone through taxes or fines has paid for it), you know those people are not being responsible. Medicaid and medicare are bankrupt because of those irresponsible types of people. No matter how much the public wants health insurance reform, this is not a good bill and the time will come when everyone will realize it. Also, have you ever known the government to take over anything and run it successfully?
1 person likes this
@irisheyes (4373)
• United States
27 Mar 10
I'm not sorry, I'm glad that I voted for him. More than ever I feel, it was the right choice. The polls have now changed dramatically. Why is that? I expect it has something to do with people actually reading the bll. I did. Inspite of the scare tactic that it was unreadable - spread by it's opponents. It is something ANY American of average intellegience can get through just fine (Was easy for me sincece I used to be a Commonwealth of PA caseworker and I've seen a lot sorse)Many people have read througn that bill and now know that the oppositition has been spreading a real load of BS. When have I known the gov to take over a business a run it well? When they took over the post office which in spite of all the recent problems is STILL the best run and cheapest wa yt to ship in this country. How do I know? I'm a small business person and I've used them all but I swear by USPS. Furthermore, my uncle's family at one point owned most of the post offices in souther NJ before the gov take over and I STILL believe that the government has done a better jog of it.
• United States
27 Mar 10
You are just one person who's for Obama. That's hardly a majority. How can you say the post office is successful when it's operating in the red?
• United States
27 Mar 10
I've never heard anyone say Obama's health care bill is unreadable. What I'm hearing is that no one is making the effort to read it and thus have no idea what they've voted for or against. That's being irresponsible, particularly when everyone in the nation will be affected by the bill. At least the Republicans read enough of the bill to know it was unacceptable based on most people's values. I'm proud of them for voting against the bill. What polls are you looking at. There was a small increase on Sunday, but Obama's numbers have been going down since then. Besides that, since the bill has already been made law, why is Obama still campaigning for it? You mentioned scare tactics; well, you should be scared now that Congress has passed this bill. I'm really hoping someone other than Democrats win in the November elections so Congress can revisit this bill and try to come up with something that's fair for everyone.
@MrNiceGuy (4147)
• United States
22 Mar 10
Poll after poll after poll and tea party after tea party show that there are plenty of people that don't want this particular health care reform. Considering the effort that the democrats are putting forth to hide and press the bill through congress it just doesn't bode well for me.
@irisheyes (4373)
• United States
23 Mar 10
A recent poll from newsweek claims that people are only against this bill when they do not know what is actually in it. When they learn what's there, most of them realize that they actually support it. Scare tatics worked up to a point but they are now not working so well.
1 person likes this
@Taskr36 (13924)
• United States
23 Mar 10
By "learn what's there" you mean cherry-picked parts of the bill that make it seem good. I don't know one person who has actually combed through that bill and read it that supports it.
@irisheyes (4373)
• United States
23 Mar 10
Depends what you mean by "cherry pick parts." If you mean plodding through the bill and finding good things and more important NOT finding anything that substantiates fear mongering then that's what I mean by learning what's there. If you mean finding parts while cherrypicking like the prohibition of pre-existing clauses and the medical loss ratio rebates that make sense to a lot of us, that also what I mean by learning what's there. It's a long bill and not a page turner but a lot of those pages are indexes and can be leaed through and the pages are small. I worked for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania for almost ten years so I'm used to those set ups and so are a lot of other people. We can get through the bill with some perserverance and make some sense of it. so can a lot of congressmen. I don't think anybody who has read through the bill fears it. Just for the record, I'm almost through it and I still support it.
1 person likes this
@dark_joev (3043)
• United States
23 Mar 10
See this majority is coming from Polls that take a sample and take there numbers and form a rough statistic of the whole population so they take lets say 100 people and ask them about if they like abortions or whatever. lets say that 25 out of a 100 said they where pro choice then some group gets a hold of this information and say 75 % of the population is against abortions so this majority is coming form a poll/statistics which means depending on where the sample was done could change what this majority is. So really you need to look at the little print at the bottom or look at the polls because they normally at the bottom say this was based on a ratio of 40 to 100 or some crazy number like that.
1 person likes this
@irisheyes (4373)
• United States
23 Mar 10
I don't doubt it and agree with everybody on this thread who thinks (as I do) that you can get a poll to support anything. Unfortunately, some folks take them as gospel truth. I admit that I prefer the ones that support my arguments but I don't believe any of them actually prove anything conclusively.
1 person likes this
• United States
23 Mar 10
Of course you can get a poll to say anything you want it to. That's why I actually talk to the people themselves. Since I'm relatively new in the area - been here six months - I do not know beforehand what the people around here support. I talk to people at the local post office, grocery store, or since it's getting to be spring, at the greenhouse near us. So far, out of the folks I've encountered, about two out of ten are for the healthcare bill.
• United States
22 Mar 10
You are putting people in boxes with labels and assuming their support. I personally know Catholics that were against the bill. Just because some nuns were for it does not mean EVERYONE who was Catholic was for it. And not just because of the abortion issue. Some just did not like the bill. I know people who are members of teh AARP who were not for it. So just because the organization was for it does not mean that EVERYONE that was a member of the group supports it. The vast majority of this country did want healthcare reform....but they did not like this bill. I agree we needed healthcare reform...but I did not like the bill or support it. I would have loved to have gone to washington to protest...but I could not afford it. Plus they put it together so fast it made it hard for a lot of people to go. Especially anyone having to travel a long distance.
1 person likes this
@irisheyes (4373)
• United States
22 Mar 10
How am I putting people into boxes? Catholics DID vote for Obama by a higher percentage than the general population. the AARP DDOES support this bill as does the AMA. That's not putting people in boxes. It's just stating facts. The fact that ALL of the people in those groups didn't support the bill or Obama's election doesn't change those facts. My major point here is that I don't see where Mylots are coming up with statements that 75% (or even a substantial majority) of the population is aginst this bill. I could say that the NY Times ran a poll that indicated 66% of their test group still supported healthcare reform but everyody would start lecturing me about how the NY Times is nothing but left wing media and can't be counted. Well, why should I count these figures I'm hearing on Mylot when I look out and get an entirely different picture. You say a lot of people couldn't afford to attend the weekend rallies. Of course they couldn't and I understand that but the truth is a lot of people couldn't afford to attend the rallies of the 70's and did not attend them for that very reason. There was still attendence huge enough to send a powerful message and I just don't see that here.
3 people like this
• United States
22 Mar 10
I saw a lot of polls from a lot of different place. They were all over the place. Most I saw were 55%-60% against. some as high as 75%. I saw very few that shows the majority were for it. You have to take polls with a grain of salt. It depends on who they call and in what areas. People can be completely in favor of health reform....but not like the bill that congress puts out. And that is what you saw. They want....just not the way congress wants to do it. Some that were against the bill thought the government was going too far...some against it did not think it went far enough. But they were still against it. 38 states are now filing lawsuits over it....so that tells you something right there.
1 person likes this
@bdugas (3581)
• United States
22 Mar 10
I agree with xfahctser, that the majority would be the people that are against it. Most of the people don't even know what is in the bill, so 4 out of 5 I think is a bit high, the only ones I have seen that are for it are the ones that have been trying to get on welfare (medicaid) and couldn't till this became law, now I hear that people making $75,000 will be added to the medicaid rolls, sure going to put a stain on the welfare system, or is that what we are becoming. I think some one making $75,000 should be able to afford to buy insurance, or it should be included in their employment. I am for all people having insurance. But not to over load the welfare rolls till the state is broke. And why is it everything that is cut seems to fall on the elderly, my husband's medicare had already changed over the last month. They will add a person making $75,000 to medicaid but ask that a person making $757. a month pay 20% now. That totals out to be a little less than $10,000 a year in income, so we pay 20% now and the $75,000 income people go to medicaid. Yes that make real sense to me. I did not vote for him and I find the ones that don't need this healthcare reform is the ones that voted and think all he does is just great. Yes what did you hope to gain out of him being elected, he promised change, I would of thought he meant change for the better, but I didn't belive his smooth talking cr*ap to start with, I can only hope that come November when it comes time for election for the congress men that the people do what they say and vote them all out. Or at least the ones that voted for this bill against what the people thought, and that 2012 will see the end of him and I can about assure you that will happen.
1 person likes this
@irisheyes (4373)
• United States
22 Mar 10
The way our current system works is that if a person making $75,000 per year has a prexisting condition, he or she CANNOT buy healthcare coverage. If that person requires somewhee in the vicinity of $70,000 in hospital care, they most definitely do qualify for medicaid. Under the new bill that person will no longer qualify for medicaid because they cannot be turned down because of a preexisting condition. Thus, the new bill will eliminate the taxpayer footing the bill for people who can afford to pay for their own coverage. How's that work for you?
3 people like this
@andy77e (5165)
• United States
23 Mar 10
First off, this president has had the highest rate of 'voter remorse' ever recorded. Voter remorse, is the people who voted for someone, and then realized they made a mistake. Second, it is possibly to be generally accepting of the idea of health care reform, yet be completely and entirely against the Obama plan. A ton of people have looked at this plan, and realized it's going to do more harm than good. Finally, liberal hippies of the past, tend to romanticize the past. In reality, more than 50% of college students during the late 60s, supported the Vietnam war. Anti-war morons, never (let me repeat that) *NEVER* were the majority. Even in mid 1970 when only 48% of college students supported the war, that doesn't automatically mean 52% were against it. There is a 'don't know' or 'no opinion'. People tend to get the idea that because the few anti-war people were obnoxious and loud, means that they had the majority. Not true. Finally, the anti-war demonstrators did more to kill our troops, than save lives. If we had gone into Vietnam, and smashed the opposition flat, the war could have been over in months to a year. Instead, because of anti-war idiots running around being obnoxious, our government went into the war half-halfheartedly, and dragged it out for 10 years, killing thousands of people on both sides. The blood of them, is on the heads of anti-war activists.
@xfahctor (14130)
• Lancaster, New Hampshire
24 Mar 10
Irisheyes, there is something I think you should read. the Wallstreet Journal interviewed Col. Bui Tin, a commander in the North Vietnamese army a number of years after the war. A couple key questions asked and the answer's given are pretty chilling. I think it is important you read them. Here are the most relevent form the interview.... WSJ: Was the American antiwar movement important to Hanoi's victory?Col. tin: It was essential to our strategy. Support of the war from our rear was completely secure while the American rear was vulnerable. Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9 a.m. to follow the growth of the American antiwar movement. Visits to Hanoi by people like Jane Fonda, and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and ministers gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses. We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese dress, said at a press conference that she was ashamed of American actions in the war and that she would struggle along with us. WSJ: Did the Politburo pay attention to these visits? Col. Tin: Keenly. WSJ: Why? Col. tin: Those people represented the conscience of America. The conscience of America was part of its war-making capability, and we were turning that power in our favor. America lost because of its democracy; through dissent and protest it lost the ability to mobilize a will to win. and at the end of the interview he solidifies the idea that the protesters affected the congressional control over the war which led to our disasterous and bloody defeat... WSJ: What else? Col. Tin: We had the impression that American commanders had their hands tied by political factors. Your generals could never deploy a maximum force for greatest military effect.
1 person likes this
@irisheyes (4373)
• United States
27 Mar 10
Oh X, I'm really dissappointed in this reponse. You're basing your opposition to my oppinion on a Wall Street Journal interview? Wow, I would definitely have expected better from you. Especially since I can think of reporters that went to jail during the Vietnam era to save our basic freedoms. The damn Wall street Journal was definitely not theiremployer. How very sad that a person who is a strict consittutionalist would base his entire argument on a Wall Street Journal interview. Please tell me this was just a temporary lapse on your part.
@andy77e (5165)
• United States
12 Apr 10
These kind of comments always bug me. What relevance does the fact it was a WSJ interview have? None. Everything that Col. Bui Tin said in the interview can be substantiated from other sources. It's not a big secret. Yet you are claiming what exactly? Since the WSJ did the interview, he must be wrong? Here's a thought. Let's debate the substance, not the source. Can you, or can you not, prove the statements by Col. Bui Tin false? If not, then I suggest the statements are true. If they are therefore true, then what relevance does the fact WSJ did the interview have? The CDEC cover sheet of the "Directive" indicates it was "acquired" on May 12, 1971. The cover sheet itself is dated June 30, 1971, and is entitled "VC Efforts to Back Antiwar Demonstrations in the United States." It shows a detailed knowledge of such VVAW activities as the Dewey Canyon demonstration on the Mall in Washington in April 1971, mentioning the "return of their medals." And the Saigon American military intelligence cover sheet dates the information in that document as being assembled in Vietnam only a week after the Washington VVAW demonstration had taken place. http://www.nysun.com/national/hanoi-approved-of-role-played-by-anti-war-vets/3756/ So documents captured in Vietnam, translated to English, specifically talk about VC efforts to support anti-war morons in the US. Do you need more sources? The documents are held at Texas Tech University at Lubbock, and have been authenticated. So with all due respect, either prove the capture documents, and the testimony from those in the VC, are all wrong, or spare us the "WSJ oh no!" stuff. Debate the facts, or accept them.
@anniepa (27240)
• United States
23 Mar 10
What an excellent discussion! I've been wondering about this myself for a long time now. I've come to the conclusion that people like you and I are truly the "silent minority". I don't ever remember a time before when it seems some people truly believe the last national election didn't mean a thing. I'm sorry, but it DID. Back in 2000 George W. Bush "won" the election although he lost the popular vote. His party also had the majority in both Houses of Congress. I wasn't happy about the outcome of the election, I especially didn't like the way the Supreme Court stepped in and "handed it" to Bush but I knew I had to accept it. I knew that when the mostly Republican Congress passed a bill and the President signed it into law it was the law. That didn't mean I didn't voice my opinion and write to my Congressman and Senators but I knew that I wasn't always going to get everything my way! I won't go into detail about what the next eight years were like but it was enough to help sweep the Democrats to victory in 2008 after helping them regain the majority in Congress in 2006. How quickly people forget - now you would think everyone in the country thinks the Republicans deserve to be back in power and that they'll miraculously do something different this time or that doing the same things they did for eight years will suddenly work. You're so right, we elected President Obama because he promised change and one of those changes was health care reform. Most of those elected or reelected to House and the Senate also campaigned on these things. Why is it that now people are saying their lawmakers aren't doing what the voters want them to do when in fact they're doing what they were elected to do? The only SURE "poll" is the one taken on election day. That was when the votes were registered and counted. They could take a public opinion poll every hour on the hour but they wouldn't really mean a thing. What are Representatives and Senators supposed to do - base their votes on issues like health care on what Rasmussen or Gallop says or what they hear on Fox News or from Rush Limbaugh? Should they go purely on the calls, letters, e-mails, etc. they get from constituents despite the fact that those who are opposed to something are generally much more vocal than those who are in favor? The only concrete thing they really have to go on is the fact they WERE elected by the people of their state or district and that the voters must therefore want them to do what they ran on. Annie
@irisheyes (4373)
• United States
23 Mar 10
Annie, Can't you just see Barack and Michelle peeking out of a White House window at the 25,000 protestors? Do you suppose they compare it to the crowds on Inauguration Day? When we marched against the war, I always used to look in the direction of the White House and wonder if the size of the crowd registered. To me numbers are important for protests and for elections. Not so much for Polls, especially when there are polls going both ways.
1 person likes this
@irisheyes (4373)
• United States
24 Mar 10
You know what, Mystic, normally I find the actual process of potitics distasteful (sometimes downright dirty in fact) but on the healthcare issue, I don't care how it got thru so long as it got thru. There has been too much suffering for way too long by too many Americans on this. The country that has the best medicine on the face of this earth has for the first time recognized the fact that it should serve its own people because THIS president was willing to risk his popularity and stake his entire presidency on one issue - healthcare reform.
1 person likes this
@anniepa (27240)
• United States
29 Mar 10
For the record, they didn't end of using the "deem and pass" technique and the bill WAS passed by a majority of 60, it was just the few minor fixes that weren't. I'm with Irish - this was the right and the moral thing to do no matter how it was done! Annie
@laglen (19782)
• United States
23 Mar 10
keep hearing stats on here that indicate the majority of Americans do not want the presidents healthcare reform but I can't figure out who comprise this majority. Those pesky groups like republicans, independents, constitutionalists, most third parties, tea party movement, doctors,..... oh yeah and ME
@Taskr36 (13924)
• United States
23 Mar 10
Yeah, but you're not real and neither is the rest of those people you mentioned because we all know that the majority supports this bill regardless of a complete lack of facts to back that up.
1 person likes this
@laglen (19782)
• United States
23 Mar 10
ah yes but maybe us shapeshifters will make it into the voting booth in November...
@irisheyes (4373)
• United States
23 Mar 10
I think it's a little iffy on the doctors. Taskr has already established the fact that 17,000 or so of them support the bill and I'm not sure about the rest. Also don't the tea party folks, the Republicans and some of the Independents overlap? and some of the Independents are on the other side. Where were you shapeshifters two Novembers ago? If you were a majority then, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
2 people like this
• United States
23 Mar 10
Have you even read the president's healthcare reform bill (yes I do know it is 2700 pages and only released after there was no time for anyone to read before the "rushed and pressured vote", but I have been reading it)? Do you actually know what it says and what has been passed in a sneaky manner (There is no reason EVER for Our Government officials to behave in this manner, and since "We the people" can fire them, it needs to stop now)? Have you actually read the US Constitution and Bill of Rights (This defines our government, our country, our rights)? What about the Public Relations about this bill, the way it was handled, presented, fear tactics to sway public opinion (not necessarily based in facts). Some facts: forced healthcare by our government (makes me wonder now that this door is open what else "our" representatives will force us to accept) under the legislation, most Americans will have to have insurance by 2014 or pay a penalty. The "drafters" say it is paid for without pointing out it takes 10 years of tax revenue to pay for only 6 years of benefits, includes new taxes and penalties, special deals with some states at the expense of other states (to get the votes needed), all while doing nothing to decrease the cost of health insurance premiums. It does nothing about the cost of health care delivery, plus the senate bill practically guarantees many will have to lose the coverage they now have (which is exactly what president obama said would NOT happen). The Congressional Budget Office itself estimates that as many as 9 million people who have work related plans will have to find some other way to get health care. Congress now tells us what types of plans we can get. This bill also inflicts heavy tax burdens on small business and families at a time when we are fighting just to have a job or a business at all (I am a small business owner). To me, right now it is Critical jobs are created for "We the people" not more hardships added. What "We the people" wanted was a healthcare system that does NOT undermine our prospects for long term economic growth. Personally, Everyone who was connected with shoving this bill down our throats in in such a non democratic way should be fired by next week. As it stands, "We the people can still do that. In another month, who knows? "We the people" have the right to demand better standards from our government representatives (their job is to ask us, make sure we understand what it is about, and vote our wishes). Also, go to the .gov sites, look for the executive orders this (and other) presidents have made. PS In my area no one wants that bill, healthcare reform yes, this one shoved down our throats, NO
• United States
23 Mar 10
I said "personally" (about firing), and yes that is an small exaggeration. But we really need to let all of our representatives from the president to the local arena that "We the people" no longer will allow this type of behavior. Don't tell me we don't have the right to expect some moral and honest behavior from them. They are NOT elected for life, so for the few years that they are in a representative position of our nation with all the perks and power that goes with it, they should be able to at least fake it. You say it isn't democratic or constitutional. Actually it is. Our constitution is the only one on this planet that allows us to do just that without overthrowing the government. Read it, it tells all of us that it is OUR duty to do just that. I like parts of the bill, most of us do. It is the parts in it that I, and others, dislike is why I am against this particular bill passing. It needed a lot more work on it! I especially do not like the "How" this particular bill got where it is, plus some of the things that are in it (and if you read previous writing you know a few of those). How will it impact me personally? In some ways favorably. I had a heart attack with no medical coverage, so I can personally attest to that side of it. But it doesn't matter. I love this country. As a woman I have rights here that I wouldn't get anywhere else in the world. I believe we have a lot to fix, starting with dishonest politicians at all levels. I believe that part of it could be improved greatly if "We the people" do as our Constitution directs us to do, and that by doing so would greatly cut back on politicians being synonymous with lying, thieving, bribe taking, being unduly influenced by big business .. etc. We cannot get something good for the country as a whole if it is unduly being slanted to where the money is. You say there is nothing to "scare" anyone about the bill and that is why those of us opposed are "focusing on the Constitutionality of forced healthcare. Besides the concept that it might destroy the Constitution (I do consider that scary), you don't think that 10 years of taxes to pay for 6 years of benefits plus new taxes and penalty's don't bother you? That actually nothing is done to actually decrease the cost of health insurance premiums (people cannot afford them as it is or would have, what makes you think a fine at a time when jobs are hard to get, people are still losing their homes, still laid off but their unemployment ran out, the cost of getting an education skyrocketed, the outlook for our kids having anywhere near what we have when they grow up is not going to happen, etc .. that list is a whole different "blog"). That nothing is in there that addresses the cost of health care delivery .. and much more .. this stuff doesn't bother you? Summarizing, there is a lot too wrong with this to just pass without more work on it. The way it was passed was WRONG and disgraceful. Bribery (be it water, money, etc), being written behind closed doors, and much more. Plus the added concept that it might just break our Constitution worries me greatly. (Another personal note, how can anyone NOT have lost any respect for Pres. Obama and the rest for the way this was passed?)
1 person likes this
@Fortunata (1136)
• United States
22 Mar 10
Uh, what Lame Stream News Channel outlet were you watching, Irisheyes? If you get your news from ObamaMSNBC, or Communist News Network, no wonder you think people who didn't like this crap bill were in the minority. Well, keep living in la-la land, if that's what makes you happy. Enjoy your rationed care! Wheeee!
@irisheyes (4373)
• United States
22 Mar 10
Well, I seem to have pretty good company here in LALA Land. Don't I? The American doctors represented by the AMA and all the senior citizens represented by the AARP are here with me. As are most of the Democratic party and the folks who voted for Barack Obama who were and as far as I can tell still are the majority of Americans. Do you even know what rationed care is? It's what every private provider in this country now gives and the only major change coming is that those unfortunate souls with a pre existing condition can no longer be rationed into a grave. That actually makes me very happy.
3 people like this
@spalladino (17924)
• United States
23 Mar 10
Oh, lookie...another fear tactic! It really says something when folks have to resort to lies and deception. What part of the bill covers rationing care Fortunata?
2 people like this
@AmbiePam (50283)
• United States
23 Mar 10
I certainly don't believe all statistics are true, but on liberal and conservative sites and TV shows, the polls I have seen indicate the majority, whatever it is, do not approve of this health care reform bill. Perhaps some people would have wanted it to pass, they just wanted it amended BEFORE it passed, I don't know. And I certainly don't see my response as inflammatory, so I hope no one finds anything to argue about in this! I don't feel like arguing, all I'm doing is talking about what I've seen and heard.
@irisheyes (4373)
• United States
23 Mar 10
No argument here, Ambie. Maybe we should all sit back and cool our heels a bit at this point and see what changes are made. Unfortunately, I have a sneaky feeling that the Health insurers and their lobbies might do away with or change my favorite section of the bill.
1 person likes this
@bobmnu (8160)
• United States
22 Mar 10
If you read the polls you will see that the Majority of the people were opposed to the bill as proposed. They favored Health Care Reform and even liked parts of the bill but it was the total package. They wanted things changed one at a time and see what worked and what didn't. As the process moved on more and more people saw the deals being made and everything was done in the back rooms they began to question the whole thing. With a 60 vote majority in the Senate an overwhelming majority in the House and they could not get it passed early on in his presidency people began to wonder. When people asked to see the bill it w as always being written and it was not until they were ready to take a vote that they produced a final bill. If it looks funny, smells funny and acts funny something is wrong. People remember the Stimulus bill that we had to rush through with out even seeing the bill to keep unemployment under 8%. As unemployment shot through 10% and we find that the money went to save mainly Union Jobs and special Pork Projects for the Congressmen and Senators. How many people who voted for President Obama no longer support him. The number grows every day.
@irisheyes (4373)
• United States
22 Mar 10
You've made some excellent points, Bob. I would agree that there are some folks who are opposed to the bill as proposed but not necessarily against healthcare reform. However, I don't think that most of them were the people who voted for Barack Obama and he did get the majority of the vote. I would also agree that some people were turned off by the politics of it. I'm almost always turned off by the deal making. But again, I don't think many of the people who voted for Barack Obama were turned off enough to form a mass exodus to the other side. I don't see where that is reflected other then in the polls being circulated here on Mylot. Frankly, if my New York Times poll doesn't count for anything here because of where it comes from, I don't see why all these anonymous polls should count for anything. This country is so polarized right now that is is easier than ever to trend anything with a poll. If it looks funny, smells funny and acts funny, it's probably just politics and unfortunatly, that's the way it works.
3 people like this