Does Being a Child Give Me Any Right to Murder my Ailing Parent? I think NO!

@thesids (22358)
Bhubaneswar, India
May 16, 2012 1:44am CST
hi friends and lotters A patient is suffering from Brain Tumor right in the Celeberum. She is conscious and even talking. Doctors say that the surgery has only a 1 in 100,000 chance of being successful. Without the surgery, the patient is expected to survive 6 months to 1 year (if the tumor grows rapidly) or 5-6 years (if the tumor grows slowly) The children of the patient and even the doctors dont discuss this with the patient. The children want to go for the surgery. And ask for the doctors help. Most of the doctors have refused the surgery as they see it will not be good for them (the doctor's reputation given the meager chances of survival of the patient after surgery). But the children are adamant and are seeing other surgeons. Now, as the patient is alive, in senses and even talking, smiling crying (and all of that is sensible), dont you think the children are not the right people to take the decision but the patient? Personally, I see this as an equivalent of Murder though this is something that I know will not hold in the Indian Law as even an attempt to murder... It pains me to say that the patient is my aunt, who has played a major role in bringing me up and I am more attached to her than I am to my mom, and, unfortunately, I have no say just because I am not her son... On a sad note theSids.
8 people like this
28 responses
@rashme317 (250)
• Philippines
16 May 12
will it depends upon the situation , if the patient can decide for herself the children doesn't have the right to decide for the care of the patient ,but when the patient is not capable on deciding on her own and maybe she signed a consent that whatever happens the children have the right to decide for the care that will be given to the patien , that is what we called the power of attorney .
1 person likes this
@babyEj (1525)
• Philippines
16 May 12
rashme goes on legality ... though we have to consider some circumstances that might occur.
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@thesids (22358)
• Bhubaneswar, India
16 May 12
Hi rashme I had to hop on to your profile to find out - and you are not from India. The reason - I did appreciate your response specially when you do mention the Power of Attorney. Unfortunately, in Indian Hospitals (my experience though, not sure about all other cities or hospitals), the doctors and authorities, dont need any authorization from the patient. The patient even doesnt sign any form or anything, but it is the one who gets the patient to the hospital or someone in the family who signs all these agreements, terms and conditions etc. As for my aunt, when she was admitted to the hospital she was much unconscious, and my younger cousin brother (her son) had signed all the documents. Since then, the doctors have been reporting to him and dont entertain anyone else in his absence.
• Philippines
16 May 12
., awh i see ., the patient didn't sign any consent to care form ? because here in our place if the patiet is capable on decision making ., she will be the one to decide about the treatment / care that should be made . but in your case i guess your aunt have the right to decide for her own treatment or care since she is very much capable to do so .,,
@jaiho2009 (39001)
• Philippines
16 May 12
sids, This is what I am trying to say with my latest topic- it is easier to relate once we've been there (same situation) Since I haven't been in this situation- I can only share my opinion. I have friends who are doctors,nurses and I have asked this question. "Do you disclose to your patient his/her real condition?" And they gave me same answer "they talked with the family first -and, in any obvious cases wherein the patient who feels the pain and of course it is his/her body would insist/beg to know his/her real condition- the doctor must tell the truth. Now,with regards on your topic. I- being a child would always do the best for my parents. But- if my parent (dad/mom) decided not to do the necessary action (surgery-whatever) I will respect my parent decision. I admit, I really don't know ,because it is always different when it happens in real.
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@babyEj (1525)
• Philippines
16 May 12
jaiho got a substantive opinion. We can never tell if we weren't there.
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@thesids (22358)
• Bhubaneswar, India
16 May 12
Hi di I do agree with what you say. but with this one case, things are different in at least - "they talked with the family first -and, in any obvious cases wherein the patient who feels... The patient wants to know and the doctors have always been telling oh, it is not anything that severe, just some pain in the spinal cord or even some pain in the stomach, you are admitted as you dont take your food at the right times etc.. and even the family doesnt want to disclose the facts. I dont have a problem with them not telling her about the illness. But then, Surgery which even doctors say is near fatal! I do think this must be dicussed with the person - as s/he has to undergo the knife and it is s/he who has to recover from that... If things are headed towards the surgery, I am scared of the thought - if she asked why are you taking me to the Operation Theater! Are we going to still lie to her? I dont have that courage for sure.
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@jaiho2009 (39001)
• Philippines
16 May 12
But then, Surgery which even doctors say is near fatal! I do think this must be dicussed with the person - as s/he has to undergo the knife and it is s/he who has to recover from that... I do not agree with this. The patient has all the right to know everything. And I do not agree with the surgeons- not sure in your area but here- doctors here discuss whatever matter to their patient. My niece who undergo with bypass operation tackled/discuss everything with the doctors. They had given her all the risk/possibilities/chances - as in everything in every detail. They showed her a raw video of such operation. I don't know what holds the surgeon or the family or you- why you have to keep this to your patient. Unless the patient is not aware of what is going to happen- which I doubt. Well- everyone has different perspective and opinion.
• United States
16 May 12
Hi Bhai! You are correct. It is Murder. They are treating your aunt like a child. Here in america, it is up to the patient , not the family! The only time the family get to choose what happens is when the patient is in a coma. But if the patient has a living will , meaning they wrote out a request to never be hooked up to a machine, the doctors have to obey their wishes. I wish I could be there. does your aunt even know about the operation? The Yankee in me wants to do two things . One, get Auntie a lawyer to forbid the operation. and the rebel in me wants to get a few tough guys and have them guard Auntie so the medical staff can't take her to surgery. This makes me so angry. So to answer your question. No, the child of a ailing parent Does Not get to choose if she gets the surgery or not. It is up to her! I hope my rant didn't make you feel worse! Oh Bhai! I'm here for you. Write an email so I know how you are doing, Please!
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@thesids (22358)
• Bhubaneswar, India
16 May 12
Hi behen You have been aware of the whole thing right from day one when I opposed. All have been against me and I too somewhere felt that the surgery might be the way out. However yesterday when the results of the supplement medicines (which were given to her to prepare her for surgery didnt give good results), I objected again and this time somehow, one of my cousin sister's seems to have realized that Lord too is not in favor of the surgery. That leaves one of two more to be convinced. If only the lawyers here were understanding, (they like the doctors are a money sucking breed these days), I would have got one at least to scare off the cousins and doctors. But you know dear, right now, doing all this (the lawyers or even the goons) would be hurting the aunt more as definitely she is a loving mom and they are her kids. And as I told you on an email, being the eldest in the family is always so very difficult
1 person likes this
• United States
16 May 12
It is a mess. I needed for you to know You are not alone. I'll be here all the way. Write me when you need me.
@viju0410 (2286)
• India
16 May 12
hi sids, I know it is very hard to see our loving ones dying day by day and we seems to be just an onlooker. I really wish the children are able to find some good doctors may be abroad if not in our country and get the tumor removed. My father in law had 14 clots in his heart and the expert doctors (Choitaram hospital, indore)did not take any chances of operating him and they advised us (even my MIL was not aware of this) let him live the way he want to and make sure the medicines are on time. They too said he might live for another 10 years without Operation but in between he collapsed due to jaundice, it was such a situation the medicines which was good for his heart was not helping the liver. He did recovered from jaundice but on the day of discharge from hospital he had massive heart attack and the doctors couldn't save him. So really we can't predict anything on our life and may be what is sensible for others are not justified in our own eye. Sorry for your aunt dear..
@viju0410 (2286)
• India
16 May 12
Yes Sid, Taking her to Shirdi, that will also be a break for your cousins as well. yes indeed hope for the best.
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@urbandekay (18312)
16 May 12
Here in UK, unless the person is certified mentally incapable then only they can give permission for an operation. I had presumed that would be the case everywhere all the best urban
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@thesids (22358)
• Bhubaneswar, India
16 May 12
Hi urbandekay Aw! That is so great to know.Unfortunately, here(with us) the patient is a mere specimen and has virtually not a big role to play. Right from the admissions into the hospitals it is all to one person who signs the "I agree" bonds etc and doctors even dont discuss anything about the patient in his absence.
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@urbandekay (18312)
16 May 12
Wow! I am so surprised, if someone else signs the form can the patient not sue? all the best urban
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@rosegardens (3043)
• United States
16 May 12
I am sorry to hear about your dear aunt. I agree that she does need to have a say in her own care. I am surprised the doctors are not even discussing her options with her. It sounds like she only has one option. Even so, she does need to know so she can make her peace with God and with those around her. I hope and pray your cousins will make a sound decision regarding your aunts input in this. It is, after all, her life. I wonder why the doctors do not speak with her about it? That seems odd to me. the doctors are not only concerned for their reputation, I would hope they are concerned for the well-being of the patient. With such a low prognosis for healing after surgery, they do not want to deal the final blow so to speak. Have you thought about speaking with your aunt about this? A friend of mine passed from brain cancer. He never went to the doctor when he began feeling badly, but he could still work and carry on with life. It was the last 4 months that were difficult on him physically. The suffering did not last very long for him, thank God. I hope the same for your aunt, and always we pray for a miraculous healing.
1 person likes this
• United States
16 May 12
Your doctors hold a very strange ideology in regards to the patient. Of course someone would be a little stressed to know they are dying, but everyone must die at one point in their lives. We all have an end, just as we have a beginning. Why they think so differently on this issue is very odd. In every other nation that I am aware of, at least in the developed world, the patient has a say and is not protected from the truth of their condition. I personally would want to be aware, so I could prepare myself spiritually for the journey. Actually, I should not have to wait until the end, but should already be prepared and ready........even so, the journey of the soul to it's final resting place is something holy and great. To deny someone the right to know the outcome is denying them the opportunity to make any changes necessary to complete the excursion. I am most definitely going to include all of India in my prayers, so your nation would see the value in disclosing the outcome of illness to the patient. God bless you my friend, and may His Spirit give you courage to speak the truth to your aunt, and may your words have comfort and healing from God most high.
• Philippines
16 May 12
hello there. i don't think it's a murder nor an attempt to kill their mom. they just took risk of the surgery, hoping for that 1 in 100,000 chance to be successful for the sake of their mom's life. they just hoped for what's best. let's just think of it in a positive way. i think their decision is also important regardless of the patient's own decision-making, since their intention is not to harm the patient, it's going to be legal, regardless of the doctor's warning. please don't get mad at them. stay positive and may your aunt be at a peaceful state.
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@thesids (22358)
• Bhubaneswar, India
20 May 12
Hi juniorstringbean Well, toady, I have to agree with you as during the past few days I did realize that it was me getting over possessive about the aunt. But 1 in a 100,000 is still a remote thing and I am sure, miracles dont happen so frequently. The latest update is that we have been able to find some alternates to surgery after so many consultations. We hope that things would start becoming easier now.
@bunnybon7 (37466)
• Holiday, Florida
16 May 12
that is definately wrong. she should have a say. and you wont believe it but iam in the very same spot as you with my aunt she was more of a mother to me then my own. except her kids, my cousins have let her know and she has said no surgery will be done so she is just getting her things in order for the end and not afraid. its not right for your cousins not to give your aunt a say in her own life.
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@thesids (22358)
• Bhubaneswar, India
20 May 12
Hi bunnybon I was moved reading about your aunt and felt so similar in a situation like you. Your response and many others' too did help me and I have been able to convince my cousins about not going in for the surgery. We have now revealed everything to the aunt and she is at the moment quite low... But we are all so very hopeful now - she will surely overcome this sad and gloomy feeling and we are now looking into the non-regular treatments for a mental stability and peace of mind - yoga and even some acupressure things.
@jazel_juan (15767)
• Philippines
16 May 12
is that even ethical and moral? i mean not asking for the consent of the parent and patient when in fact they are still well and able? as far as i know and what the law states, under these circumstances the patient needs to sign a consent and should be the one who has the right to say whether to go or not with the procedure as the patient is still well and able.... as far as i know the children can come in between if ever the patient/parent is not well in able like in cases of comatose patients..
1 person likes this
@thesids (22358)
• Bhubaneswar, India
16 May 12
Hi jazel is that even ethical and moral? exactly my words and thoughts! I am moving to the hospital right after this comment, as I got a call from my cousins - they need to discuss with me. I tried to convince one of her daughters and she realized what I said yesterday wasnt wrong. Maybe I see some sensible things today. btw, aunt is better today - when I met her in the daytime. She was asking me - how long more do I stay in this yukky place with all these pipes going in and coming out of me! She sounded better - I hope things take some turn for good of all here.
@babyEj (1525)
• Philippines
16 May 12
There are cases that we have to follow what is right and not because the doctor's opinion is based in science. Science couldn't have absolute explanation to everything.So I think the doctors should follow the family member's of the patient no matter it is 1% success only. We won't know when miracles come in unexpected time.
@thesids (22358)
• Bhubaneswar, India
16 May 12
Hi babyEj I agree miracles happen and this is one thing which we can never be sure of - when they happen. That said, I would still want to have a say if I am the one whose life is at stake. My kids may be right in their opinion about the surgery and might even have the money to help me operated but still, dont you think I should have a more "say" specially when it is my own life being risked? And if I die, dont you think the kids will be holding themselves responsible for their decision - of not seeking my advice?
@roberten (3131)
• United States
16 May 12
I do not understand how a surgery of any kind can be performed without the consent of a lucid patient. The doctors are right to be cautious, if things do not go well as they expect, there may be serious consequences to deal with. Your aunt should have the final say.
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@thesids (22358)
• Bhubaneswar, India
16 May 12
Hi roberten Wish that was happening here. Doctors are not discussing anything with the patient and have also told all of the visiting people including the family, that we should not disclose anything to the patient citing the severeness of the ailment and also the fact that she is more stressed. They say, disclosing the illness will have a definite negative impact on her present condition. They are also keeping the aunt on sedatives citing that the pains would be less felt... however I find her quite normal whenever I have been at the hospital - which is on a daily basis,
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@sjvg1976 (18404)
• Delhi, India
16 May 12
Ji Sids, I am sorry to hear about your aunt. But that does not sound good that her children are adamant to get surgery which is risky and has little chance that she could survive.They should understand it that there are more chances that they will loose her but i understand people always see hopes and try that their dear ones get well so is what they are trying to do.They should consult the best surgeons and go with their advice.
@thesids (22358)
• Bhubaneswar, India
17 May 12
Hi sjvg It seems that they have been mesmerized by the doctors at the hospital... otherwise I too fail to see any logic - in taking such a high risk. I am doing the consultations with other surgeons from other hospitals... and I believe that I will be able to convince them better today
• United States
16 May 12
I am so sorry to hear about your aunt. I do not know about in your country, but I believe here the only way that the patient would not get a say is if the patient was deemed incompetent. I am not very familiar with brain tumors, but I do know that they can affect a person's ability to make sound judgments, even if the person appears to be "normal" - the person can be talking, responding, etc. but yet his or her emotions, impulse control and/or logic, reasoning and decision making can be affected. If this is the case, then he or she would not be able to make a decision about treatment, although I think that the responsible parties should consult the person anyway and give weight to whatever the person has to say. If this is not the case, on the other hand, then I do not understand why the person would not be the one to make this sort of decision.
@thesids (22358)
• Bhubaneswar, India
17 May 12
Hi PA true that the people suffering with brain tumor are not that capable of taking the decisions, but my aunt is quite normal. yester-evening too, she was happy and I do not find that there is anything wrong with her thinking process right now, she seems to be more stable with each day. Last evening, I did get into consultation with another nuro surgeon at a different hospital and he revealed that those scans should have been re-done as it is already 15 days she has been into the hospital and the re-do of the scans would indicate how fast that tumor is growing. And also, he suggested we can opt for radiology to stay away from surgery. I have put forth these views to my cousins today and they seem to be interested in finding out more.
@allknowing (69543)
• India
16 May 12
At best you can advise your cousins to desist from this action and let their mother live her normal life.
@thesids (22358)
• Bhubaneswar, India
17 May 12
Hi allknowing Yes, luckily, I got a chance day before and one of my cousin sisters seemed to agree to what I said. I have two more to convince and I am trying my best to convince them. As it is a too personal matter, and the risks are involved, the complexity is around, but I am strong in my belief.
@pergammano (7755)
• Canada
16 May 12
Dearheart, I find your situation very painful....but somewhat enraged over what I see, as a lack of morals and ethics on behalf of the Doctors..AND the family,and a whole smattering of disrespect! As long as I am cognizant, my health or ILL health is a very PERSONAL matter between my Dr. and myself, with NO external input! This very dear, dear soul has the "right to life" in whichever manner, she wishes to approach it, and she needs the tools, no matter what they are to walk thru this world in her chosen path...one which would be operate or NOT! She is cognizant, in full control of her faculties...she MUST know, now and allow her to choose! I know your health, too..is frail...but dear one, STRESS is one of your biggest enemies...and am just wondering if it would be possible for you to speak to her family Dr...and have him/her speak to the cousins! She will be aware, someday, that she was deceived! I truly am sorry.....and prayers are winging your way!
@thesids (22358)
• Bhubaneswar, India
20 May 12
My dear pergammano Thanks for appearing here - I know you have been in some personal matters the past few days and I hope that you have overcome the issues. your presence here did help me a lot. I convinced my cousins and we took a decision not to go for the surgery. Then we did find some doctors who were not directly related to the hospital and they suggested some more scans etc. Then we consulted another doctor at a different city and he did say that radiology might help. We will be taking her for the radiology. The good news here is - we have finally revealed everything to the aunt, and though she is quite upset and low, we have been able to find some guides who would help her learn meditation and some yoga to keep the stress and the sad thoughts away. Though this might not be medically a great and right way (going by the doctors here who still want her to be on sedatives) we are quite hopeful that things are now heading towards the right sides - and even aunt doesnt want the surgery because of the financial matters and also her own physical health.
@Sreekala (23716)
• India
27 Nov 12
Dear Sidhu, I have not seen this discussion earlier, now I read one another discussion on tumor and accidentally seen your discussion comes under similar topics. But I remember once you told me in person about an operation. I don’t have any idea what is the outcome of operation because we are not talking at all recently in chat. (No blaming at all, I knew you have some problems and issues at home and personally too). Now it is too late to speak about the topic or the honesty of the children. I wish to know, what happened to her.
@Cutie18f (9563)
• Philippines
27 Nov 12
I think the doctor and the family should honor the will of the patient. It is his or her own body and she can choose to undergo the procedure or not. With or without the procedure, she is still going to die anyway and she has chosen not to have that drastic procedure which could eventually shorten her life. I think we should listen to what the patient wants because she will not be staying on this earth for a long, long time, so please respect the patient's decision.
@JenInTN (27565)
• United States
25 May 12
Hi thesids! I do think that if the parent is able to make choices that they should be allowed to until they can no longer do it. I have worried about this kind of situation before myself. I think that this is a great discussion to bring about thoughts of the future. Once a person is unable to make decisions, they should consider having someone in place to do what they want done.
@Yheart (497)
• Indonesia
19 May 12
I'm sorry to hear that. I hope your aunt will live a long life. In my opinion, we can't call it a murder the child has a good intention. Maybe the child really hope the surgery will save the parent. But I do agree that the child have to discuss about it with the parent since its the parent's life.
@millertime (1398)
• United States
19 May 12
I don't know what the laws governing this type of situation are in your country but in the United States, the patient would be the one to make the decision unless they have been declared mentally incompetent and their fate turned over to their next of kin or whoever has been designated as the one to decide their fate. It's incomprehensible to me that if she is aware and isn't mentally impaired by the tumor, the doctors or children don't inform her of her own condition and let her decide what she wants. It should be totally up to her. If she is still mentally competent, it seems like she would be able to lay out her wishes in a legal document prepared by a lawyer, stating exactly what she wants and that it's not to be overridden under any circumstances. This should be her right as a human being to determine her own destiny. To me, it's a basic human right.