Freewill???

@bird123 (10525)
United States
February 2, 2013 1:02am CST
Most can agree that God gave us all freewill. Does it really make sense that God would give us all freewill then try to intimidate our choices with the threat of Hell?? Mankind, on the other hand uses fear and intimidation to control others.
6 people like this
13 responses
• India
3 Feb 13
Just think as if there is no God and your actions will send you simply either to heaven or hell. It will bound you to do the right thing. Its not fair to pull the poor God in every aspect of our life. Many a times, we do and simply pray HIM, when we dont find the route to recover.
1 person likes this
@bird123 (10525)
• United States
3 Feb 13
You do not understand me. I am attempting to point out that God has a better system than mankind has invented in their holy book stories. God's real system is so much better and it does add up. Clearly, Hell does not. As for thinking there is no God, that is impossible for I have already discovered God.
@Pose123 (21667)
• Canada
2 Feb 13
Hi bird, As usual you make a very good point, I just wish more people could understand that. I'm convinced however that more and more young people are getting away from the influence of those who teach such things - and that is certainly a good thing. Churches have used fear to control their congregations for far too long, and it's good to see those congregations getting smaller all the time. Of course children need to be taught love, compassion, honesty and the golden rule, but they also need to be taught to think for themselves. Some churches do a much better job of this than others. Blessings.
1 person likes this
@bird123 (10525)
• United States
3 Feb 13
Yes, if only religion would do like science and correct their errors,how the world could change. Ego and pride get in the way of so much discovery of the truth. Still,as mankind grows in knowledge and understanding, religion will become obsolete if they do not change. People will discover truth and God from other sources. You are right. We should all be teachers of Unconditional Love whenever we can. When we do, we will be teaching God to everyone around us.
1 person likes this
@urbandekay (18312)
2 Feb 13
Why do you think it does not make sense? all the best, urban
@vandana7 (68509)
• India
2 Feb 13
God cant be a kind and forgiving person, if he is capable of punishing us in hell for exercising that freewill wrongly, right?
@urbandekay (18312)
2 Feb 13
No, I don't think that follows; if I say to you, if you steal and gamble you will end up in misery, that detracts not from your freewill. Birds, problems is based on a rather naive understanding, thinks I. God's laws are to be understood as practical rules that promote human flourishing all the best, urbam
@bird123 (10525)
• United States
2 Feb 13
Let's listen to what Vandana7 is saying. Ask the question. Can God be loving, kind, and forgiving if He is sending people or even created a place where people spend eternity in a fiery pit without the possibility of learning, growing, or redemption for their freewill choices?? If it adds up to anyone that God created Hell, they do not question. They accept religion stories blindly. This would make God a Monster. If you look around you, you can see God's intelligence in everything. Tell me. Isn't God much more Intelligent than to be frying those kiddies? Now, Urbandekay is right in that lots of things in holy books promote human flourishing. On the other hand, that is not all they do. See it for what it is. I think a person's goal should be to learn and become like God. This can not be done following holy books blindly. At some point one needs to discover God without others influences. Doesn't that really add up better than blindly following and accepting stories from holy books that do not add up???
@else22 (4319)
• India
2 Feb 13
Of course,it makes sense.God has blessed all of us with a conscience that can differentiate between good and bad,desirable and undesirable.It's our choice which of them we adopt.God does not intimidate us with the threat of hell.If we choose evil or bad,we would have to face consequences.It's just an example of cause and effect.We cause bad to happen to us.We may as well choose good to get good resuts.What we sow,so will we reap.That's it.There is no intimidation.You can't expect to have mangos if you sow cactus.
@bird123 (10525)
• United States
2 Feb 13
Can you really see no threat in Hell? Isn't it threatening to be told you could send eternity in a fiery pit with no possibility of redemption for merely not believing? Further, where is your sense of justice? What crime could justify that punishment? Only a monster would create reality like that. It is Evil for mankind to teach it or spread it. God is no monster. God has great Intelligence. Intelligence can find better ways to teach than frying kids. Think about it. I have a friend who doesn't believe in religion but only stays with them because of the fear of Hell. See how religion is using fear and intimidation? It is Evil. It is not God!!
@else22 (4319)
• India
3 Feb 13
I can't see the hell or heaven before I die.All I want to say is we dhould make a good use of our conscience.If we choose to do the right things,why would we be punished with hell?As we sow,so will we reap.We have a mind,a powerful mind.We can easily differentiate good from the evil. So far as fear is concerned,I think fear is the greatest sin or the greatest evil.Religion does not inspire fear,it is men who spread it.Religion,I think,shows us the way to God which is fearlessness in itself.
@bird123 (10525)
• United States
3 Feb 13
else22 Yes, our actions will return to teach us what our actions mean. You give very good advice when you say to consider our choices wisely. You are right in that God will never ever inspire fear in His children. You are right that is mankind. Let's not forget that mankind invented religion. Let's view religion with selective vision to see only those parts that are God within them. One can never go wrong choosing Unconditional Love. 6precious102 Is there really redemption from Hell after you get there??? This is the first I have heard of this. Elaborate. You must understand for there to be Real justice there must always be the opportunity for redemption with no limit.
@bestboy19 (5482)
• United States
3 Feb 13
You’ve heard the expression: A man convince against his will is of the same opinion still. God knows our heart. He knows if we have put our faith in Him and accepted His mercy and grace and forgiveness of our sins through the shed blood of His Son Jesus Christ, or if we are only saying we do in order to escape a possible Hell. The Bible speaks of God’s love for us and how He gave His only begotten Son Jesus Christ as a sacrifice for us that we might have eternal life with Him. If there is intimidation in the pages of scripture, there are also blessings. Either way, God knows that a man convinced against his will…. God is wise enough to know that neither intimidation nor blessings will change the heart of one who refuses to believe. He is also wise enough to know that an excuse of ignorance of the truth could be used against Him on the Day of Judgment. Therefore, he gave us His Holy Word the Bible so we would know the truth without the excuse of ignorance. As it says in scripture, God proved His love for us with the gift of His Son Jesus Christ. We may choose to accept His gift or reject it. We may choose to love God or to hate Him. He is using neither intimidation nor blessings to get His way. He is telling us the truth and allowing us to choose for ourselves.
@bird123 (10525)
• United States
4 Feb 13
So what you are saying is that telling you that you will fry in Hell if you do not believe is not using fear and intimidation? Surely you can't be that blind to think it's not. Why is it so important to accept God's mercy, grace, and forgiveness anyway? Does God have an EGO problem that He needs the glory or attention? Doesn't add up!! Being acknowledged should make no difference except to feed the EGO.
@bestboy19 (5482)
• United States
4 Feb 13
So what you are saying is that our actions returning to us are not using fear and intimidation? Since we don’t know what our actions mean till after the fact, since you say that is how we learn, we don’t know if we’ll be punished or rewarded. At least with the God of the Bible, we know where we stand and we can make the choice of good or evil for ourselves based on what is revealed in scripture. With returning actions, we don’t know what to expect. Your god is vindictive. I would rather know in advance than learn the hard way. You expect God to love us without conditions and then you accuse Him of being an egotist because He wants to be loved by us and wants us to accept His gifts, gifts that are blessings for us? What a thoughtless, argent person you are. If God's gifts are of no importance to you, if you see God only as an egotist for wanting to be loved and having His gifts accepted, then God Himself is of no important to you. Your claims about God don't add up, since He is of no value to you. They are all based on what you want God to be.
@bird123 (10525)
• United States
5 Feb 13
Bestboy19 Has God told you your actions will return to you?? Of course not. God will not influence or intimidate your free choices. I have told you because I have discovered God's system. I would not have said anything if I had thought it would threaten your choices. People read holy books all day long yet that does not prevent evil. People will choose hard lessons for themselves. Is it really right to restrict that person's choice of lessons?? God quietly allows us all to choose our lessons, patiently and lovingly teaching us all what we need to know. God has blessed me often. What I point out to you about mandatory accepting of gifts shows mankind is involved in your story. It doesn't add up that God would demand we accept anything. God has no EGO to bruise. I didn't mean to bruise yours. You have all my love and kindness!!
@gjabaigar (2202)
• Philippines
3 Feb 13
Hi my friend bird123. how are you? Free will doesn't mean doing whatever you want. It means having the freedom to do what is right.
@barehugs (8986)
• Canada
3 Feb 13
Sorry pal, but free will has nothing to do with right and wrong. Free will is simply the freedom to make the choice. If 'for instance,' I was incarcerated, Then my freewill would be severely restricted in that I could not move around freely, I could not be with my family, etc, it would have nothing to do with my choices of right and wrong.
@gjabaigar (2202)
• Philippines
3 Feb 13
Then why you been incarcerated? Did you did something wrong or right? How did you know you've been incarcerated? Why there are people incarcerated and people not incarcerated? Prisoned or not prisoned? Why do we have the rule of law? What is the purpose?
@gjabaigar (2202)
• Philippines
3 Feb 13
Am I wrong or right? Of what my free will of freedom have chosen the right to say.
@iuliuxd (4453)
• Romania
4 Feb 13
We both live on the only oasis in the middle of a huge desert. And i tell you : Bird, please stay here with me, otherwise you will die. Is this a threat ? It makes me a bad person ?
@bird123 (10525)
• United States
5 Feb 13
Does it make you a bad person if you created the desert large enough that it would be impossible to cross?? Why make me a prisoner of your own creation?? Does it then make you a good person by saying stay at your oasis??
@iuliuxd (4453)
• Romania
5 Feb 13
Where do you want to go Bird ? There is nothing in our universe except for a oasis and a huge desert.If you stay here, after you end your great life you will go to another universe where is plenty of water everywhere.This is the offer. Take it or leave it.This means free will. The god you created alone in the kitchen doesn`t give people free will. No matter what they are doing, no matter if one is saying f..k you god,or "i`m sick and tired of you god" he will be forced to live forever with that god.Where is the free will ?
@bird123 (10525)
• United States
6 Feb 13
iuliuxd. I will not be forced to live within the parameters you place. My possibilities are limitless. I am a Spiritual being. I see no desert. All I see is a Masterpiece and a wonderful journey that I continue. I am very Happy!! You have all my Love and Kindness!!
@spicymary (558)
• Romania
2 Feb 13
Hell is just a consequence of our life. We can't be in heaven, near God, if we reject him all the time. I doubt hell is a place of physical torture, but a place where people feel bad because they didn't achieve their mission. And the mission for what we were created is achieving similarity to God. I don't know if it is the best example, but it's like we were born with a gift for mathematics, but because we didn't take time to make exercizes and improve our gift, we would never have a job in research and neither teaching. So we end up selling groceries at the market. It's not the punishment of out parents, but our own choice (we prefer to party, not go to school). It wouldn't make us feel good, because we would prefer to have all the benefits that a great mathematician have (more money, more free time, his own schedule, prestige, living without the fear of tommorow, having a purpose in life). We could wonder, why all this struggle, God could've made us perfect, and all will have the right to go to heaven. But we would've been like animals than. No free will means no chance to be similar to God. That's why we are the best of his creations.
@bird123 (10525)
• United States
3 Feb 13
Aren't lessons learned from the consequences of our actions? Doesn't this learning move us closer to understanding God. At what point do you decide there will be no more learning thus eternal punishment?? It doesn't add up for God to do as you say. If my child totally rejects me, do you really think our relationship is over? In reality, nothing could end the unconditional love which will act in the best interest of those kiddies. The mistakes through bad choices will create learning which will lead to our perfection in time. Why hate and condemn the kids for that? You made a comment that we are the best of God's creation when in truth all God's children are equal that includes the animals. Each is at a different level of understanding. The lack of understanding and knowledge limits our capabilities. Having limited capabilities makes us no better or no worse. It just means we need more lessons.
@bird123 (10525)
• United States
3 Feb 13
Spicymarry. Ok, let's assume Hell exists. Do you know what would happen in Reality? Do you know there are wonderful souls who volunteer to go through Great adversity in order that others will see and understand?? If Hell actually existed, it would be filled with these saints helping to lead wayward children back home. These souls are very strong. They will remain until all God's children come home. There isn't anyone that can't be fixed. God is capable of it all and loves all His children Unconditionally.
@barehugs (8986)
• Canada
3 Feb 13
Yes, I believe we have freewill, but is it freewill to do anything we choose? What choices do we actually have? Would your Higher-self allow you to end your life by your own hand? Of course not! So much for free will. As for the threat of hell? What a Joke! Perhaps the devil needs help with the fiery furnaces. Would be a warm place to spend the winter of eternity.
@bird123 (10525)
• United States
3 Feb 13
Yes, we do have total freewill set within the parameters of this world. There is a catch as you suspect. As we gain in knowledge and intelligence we learn that many of those bad choices are not really a choice at all. With enough knowledge, we still choose not to make the bad choice that we are no longer crazy enough to make. Sounds like it's chilly where you live. I bet there is lots of snow. I heard the groundhog says early spring. I think that is a sign of more winter coming. I don't think that groundhog has ever been right. Of course, if one believes hard enough along with a few more coats and blankets, one might pretend it's spring. That snowman is really sunning on a nice warm beach. You know how beliefs are. This could work. OK! OK! It won't work for those who think and value facts. Throw another log on the fire. Spring will arrive sooner or later. That is a Fact!!
@barehugs (8986)
• Canada
3 Feb 13
Yes, I had not thought of 'bad choices,'that would be another choice that would not be possible (if we were aware of the problem)and You are right, it is chilly where I spend the summer (southern Ontario), but here in sunny south Texas (where I spend the winter) we eat Grapefruit fresh from our own tree all winter. It will soon be uncomfortably warm here, and will have to fly back to Canada (like the birds) once again.
@LittleMel (14055)
• Canada
2 Feb 13
exactly. the Divine Creator never sends out punishments of any kind by free will, all creations can create anything. and they will experience it. be it war or peace. harmony or conflict. when a human creates conflict, the same human will experience this conflict. it's just cause and effect. action and reaction. consequences. nothing to do with punishment, hell or heaven. there is no heaven or hell for us, other than what we ourselves create.
@bird123 (10525)
• United States
2 Feb 13
Yes, It is so easy to see and understand, yet people hold onto their petty need to blame, hate, hurt, and punish, not realizing it's going to return. You are right. God is at a much higher level. Education can exist without the anger, hate, blame, and punishment that mankind holds so dear. Unconditional Love does what is best for the other. What a Joy that is when it returns. Indeed, I have been blessed many times when it returned to me. It's a Spiritual Joy that can not be replaced by anything else. OK,LittleMel. You always bring words of Wisdom so that others might see and discover for themselves.
1 person likes this
@LittleMel (14055)
• Canada
4 Feb 13
thank you for sharing your wisdom here also
• United States
5 Feb 13
I think it is man to uses the threat of Hell, fear and intimidation to control other. John 3:16 says that "God so loved the world" not that God so hated the world. If God had not given us free choice than Lucifer could accuse him of making people worship him for fear. I just saw an enlarged picture of your avatar. Was I ever surprised to see it was a bird and not a man with a blue hat, neckerchief around his neck looking like he had some reins in his hand holding what looked like a horse behind him. Guess I need new glasses.
@bird123 (10525)
• United States
5 Feb 13
People do see what they want to see. God is beyond the stories in holy books. That is why so many of those holy book stories do not add up. Yes, God really blessed me finding that avatar picture. It fits me so well.
• Mexico
3 Feb 13
Hi bird: As I say before to you, the "fear and intimidation" you mention is not a God's thing. Unfortunately, a lot of religious leaders from different denominations have used fear and intimidation to make people do exactly what they want them to do which is not good. I don't think we have to make this confusion between what wants says or wants with the things religions impose to their followers. ALVARO
@bird123 (10525)
• United States
4 Feb 13
Yes, clearly God is so much more than those holy book stories. God is also beyond the petty use of fear and intimidation.
@AidaLily (1450)
• United States
3 Feb 13
This is why I am wiccan. It doesn't make sense at all that God would give you freewill and then say if you don't follow my rules, you are going to some place of eternal suffering and pain. Why would an all powerful being create his creations with freewill then essentially threaten them with hell? He could have just created beings with no freewill and no one would have been any wiser. Why would he create "evil" in his own world as there never had to be a need for it? I mean it is also strange that he put a tree of knowledge (depending on interpretation) in the Garden of Eden when there was absolutely no need to ever put something that could essentially destroyed the paradise he made for his creations. I have my own theory about these things however. As you stated in your original post Mankind uses fear and intimidation to control others. One of the first stories in the Christian bible (Adam and Eve) explains how knowledge is bad as they got 'kicked' out of paradise for supposedly eating from the tree of knowledge. Then there is talk of demons, burning cities, plagues and much more to anyone who doesn't just go along with the teachings and a promise of hell when these people die. -If you learn too much, then you can't be fooled by it. If you can't be fooled by it, you are told you are going to hell.- God has no reason to intimidate others or hate his creations for their differences as he created them all even those that go against a "religion". People dislike those who are different and those same people assume that they are able to talk for god and thus you have hell.
@bird123 (10525)
• United States
3 Feb 13
Yes. You sum it up pretty good. I must add one thing. God gave everyone a different view to guaranty mankind a larger view than any one person could have. This helps so much in teaching and learning from each other. Don't people realize?? Diversity is a Good Thing!!!! If everyone was exactly like me, I'd be ready to get off this world. I already know me. Think how boring it would be.