A fight around a rosière

@topffer (42156)
France
August 14, 2018 9:12am CST
Saint Medardus was a rich philantropist and a Catholic bishop who created the first miss competition in the world in 530 AD, in his native village of Salency (France). The miss was called a «Rosière» because she was receiving a crown of roses and a big sum of money coming from the income of a «Fief of the Rose», a property owned by Medardus in Salency ; she was also offered a dinner. It was not a beauty competition (these ones were invented later, during the 8th C, in Constantinople), the miss was chosen and rewarded for «her exemplary behavior» among the girls of Salency aged 18 or more. It is all what was needed until 1789, but later the girl has been chosen for «her virtuous reputation», which is not exactly the same. In the past, following the example of Salency, many villages in France have had a Rosière funded by the donation of a local sponsor. But rosières have quite disappeared. In Pessac, the last Rosière was elected 2014 because there were no candidate in 2015. I think the last place electing a Rosière in France is Moissac, but maybe there are more. The last Rosière in Salency was elected in 1987, but the commune wants to elect a new Rosière in 2019, and many people are complaining actually, the atheists criticizing the commune for investing in a religious festivity (it starts by a mass and the Rosière is crowned by the local priest), which is forbidden since 1905 in France ; the feminists complaining against a festivity giving a crown to virtue and virginity and treating the rosières like flower pots. Feminists do not like Saint Medardus and his miss competitions. Rosières are not necessarily linked to Catholicism. The Rosière of Salency became during a few years after the French Revolution, a Republican Rosière, and there is a 1794 ballet by Grétry with this title. The photo, found on Wikipedia, shows a rosière in 1913 in Bagnolet, a Paris suburb ; surrounded by three mayors, it is apparently also a Republican rosière. The Catholic rosière of Nanterre, another suburb of Paris, became in 1935 a red Communist rosière crowned by the mayor. The last Red rosière of Nanterre was elected in 1979. Personally, I believe that all this buzz is a kind of fight between globalization and parochialism, and I would tend to take side for the commune wanting to restore an old local tradition. Nobody forces any girl to candidate, and if it is a religious festivity in Salency, it is also a civil festivity, with a fair, a ball and fireworks. The 885 inhabitants of Salency should have the right to have fun like they want without having to care about strangers to their commune wanting to impose their own ideas. Have you heard of rosières in your country ?
11 people like this
9 responses
@LadyDuck (454910)
• Switzerland
14 Aug 18
This is the first time that I hear about the Rosières de Salency. By curiosity I searched and I am reading that they wanted to bring back the tradition. It seems that too many are opposed and they will do nothing at all. I do not know if you have read
Après l’annonce la semaine dernière du retour de la fête de la Rosière à Salency, le maire de la ville a reçu de nombreux courriers de protestations et songe désormais à faire annuler l’événement.
2 people like this
@topffer (42156)
• France
14 Aug 18
I have not read this one. I believe it would be difficult for the mayor to cancel it. If it is true that since 1905 a mayor cannot finance a religious festivity, the separation of the State and the Church in 1905 is also not authorizing a mayor to write a bylaw to forbid a religious festivity. He can only forbid here the civil part : ball, fireworks, fair. And I guess that the shopkeepers would be deceived. Only a law would be able to forbid the crowning of a rosière by a priest in Salency.
1 person likes this
@LadyDuck (454910)
• Switzerland
14 Aug 18
@topffer I cannot understand he should cancel it by the way. Where is freedom?
2 people like this
@topffer (42156)
• France
14 Aug 18
I think the mayor realized the problem, as he says in the article that he needs the authorization of the sous-préfet to cancel it. A sous-préfet cannot do that. On another side I understand him : 87 emails of insults ! Le Parisien is ambiguous too, the mayor having told that they would not ask to the rosières to be virgins. I think this mayor is clumsy, kind of mayors elected out of parties in the countryside, people of good will but unable to face a problem like this one.
3 people like this
@JudyEv (323672)
• Rockingham, Australia
15 Aug 18
The Catholic Church in our home town used to have a 'Queen of the May' but I don't think anyone special was chosen although I'm sure she would have needed a good reputation!
2 people like this
@topffer (42156)
• France
15 Aug 18
I did not knew the "Queen of the May". I am reading on Wikipedia that it has an English origin. They are younger girls but they wear a crown of white flowers like rosières. It is different but interesting, thank you.
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@topffer (42156)
• France
15 Aug 18
@JudyEv He should be proud to have been chosen to carry the crown.
@JudyEv (323672)
• Rockingham, Australia
15 Aug 18
@topffer Vince had to carry the crown on a cushion one year. He had white knickerbocker things, long white socks and fancy shoes with huge buckles. I must find the photo one day. I think he keeps it hidden! He was about 12.
1 person likes this
• Pamplona, Spain
15 Aug 18
Anything like that kind of thing has been cancelled here in a lot of places. Before where I was born and lived the Church had something like that and all the girls of our age had to wear white dresses although it was not for Communion or anything like that. Thing is here they tend to use this kind of celebration like a torch to start off political fires and start off like you say all the feminists and all those kind of fanatical stuff. I did not care much for those white dresses as I did not like ribbons or those kind of hats either. I can appreciate the sentiment that is behind it but does not mean to say I agree with it. I was a girl girl but without liking those kind of dresses as I felt silly wearing them for I don´t know what. But sometimes I was very much a tomboy and i had to be to keep my two brothers from getting into their usual scrapes. Have changed the word where which is an effect of speaking Spanish lol.
1 person likes this
@topffer (42156)
• France
15 Aug 18
Was it a rosière or a queen of May ? It is not the same, but I guess they both mobilize the same fanatics like you say. Atheists would suppress any sign of religion out of a church. 2 or 3 years ago they started a trial to remove a nativity scene from a town hall and won it. There was another one a bit later to remove the statue of a pope from a square, and they lost it. The rosières were created at Salency quite 1500 years ago, restoring them in this place is not like creating a new rosière in a village having never had one, but this poor mayor is attacked and threatened of trials, and I am afraid he is too clumsy and weak for this fight and may give up.
1 person likes this
• Pamplona, Spain
15 Aug 18
@topffer Something like a Rosierre like you mention but with a lot of religious stuff that I was not into really and never will be. I am remembering here something from ages back where I used to go to a Church because I love singing mainly. I thought I had two friends there of some sort different to the rest. They made a comment about me wearing eye shadow and a shortish dress that made me go red to the roots of my hair. Since then that kind of person or people I have not been for or against just made me very wary and weary of them as their so called pious remarks reminds me of the times that Jane Eyre lived. Also they made sure that their friends heard it too more or less calling me a you know what. I dare to say that I had more sentiment for the greatest Master of all than what they could have ever had and I still dare to say it even now. They had no right to judge like that and although it sounds like I am judging them now its the sentiment that can get stirred up the wrong way. I was so called by my brother who nearly got a whole saucepan of dinner on top of his head and so he was lucky that day very lucky. Again I am not against this kind of celebration but you can get all sorts of people who only seek to do damage. Also state that they were never my friends after that at least not for me.
1 person likes this
• Pamplona, Spain
15 Aug 18
@topffer I had spelled that word Rosiere li wrong but that is what happens when you speak such a language as this and I should take out a Master in English just kidding.
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@vandana7 (98517)
• India
14 Aug 18
No...we do not have rosières in our country. That said, why is it that others want to interfere in something that is not going to cost them or government nor hurt anybody. Seems silly to me..
1 person likes this
@vandana7 (98517)
• India
14 Aug 18
@topffer I believe it is dietary deficiency that makes a person interfere with others life. I will check Anna's box.
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@topffer (42156)
• France
14 Aug 18
@vandana7 This is an explanation, they may have stomach aches.
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@topffer (42156)
• France
14 Aug 18
It is often like that in France, and atheists and feminists are going wild here, a feminist association has even threatened to lodge a complaint. I believe that the mayor is too clumsy to sustain this fight. In an article linked by @LadyDuck he tells that he wants to cancel the festivity.
2 people like this
@much2say (53650)
• Los Angeles, California
14 Aug 18
All I can think of are various pageants - there are many, but not based on "exemplary behavior". They seem to be about beauty/brains/talent(maybe) - the overall model woman/girl or for whatever that particular pageant is looking for as the trophy female. I know feminists have issues with pageants - and I do understand their side . . . yet I also think that if people enjoy their pageants and wish to participate in them or any part of it willingly (no harm done, though many feminists may say otherwise) - then let 'em. There are quite a few traditions that have a religious roots, but have become civil affairs throughout the years. Some think these traditions should be abolished altogether because it is not PC (politically correct) for our times. Well, history is history - and no one can erase how things used to be - maybe they can revise the criteria a bit in choosing the "miss" - to keep up the tradition in modern times.
1 person likes this
@much2say (53650)
• Los Angeles, California
15 Aug 18
@topffer True - exemplary can mean anything good - I guess it depends on what exactly the original criteria was. I don't know about the virtuous reputation though . Ah, that's the kind of mayor who wants to please everyone and will cave in when enough people oppose him. What a shame - that's no leadership if he cannot help the cause for his own village.
1 person likes this
@much2say (53650)
• Los Angeles, California
18 Aug 18
@topffer That's amazing that you could find such a rule book from that time - but I take it that there is nothing outlandish about the rules. You have done more research than they did! Ugh, he is a mayor literally only by name!
1 person likes this
@topffer (42156)
• France
14 Aug 18
The original criteria of "exemplary behavior" is not bad, as you can include a lot of things there, like selfless or courageous acts, and I do not think it is not politically correct. I can understand feminists fighting against beauty contests, but I hardly understand them here, it can be done in a way giving a positive image of women. The problem is that the mayor is clumsy and probably not able to sustain a fight to maintain the local tradition alive. It is often the case in small places like this one : they are people of good will earning quite nothing to be mayors of villages, and are often better with their arms than with their brains. I could not not smile when I read that he has decided to respond personally to all the emails of insults he received. I would certainly not respond to people telling me "You are a bast*rd" or "I spit to your face" (examples given in the French article linked by Anna). He is naive if he does not know what is a troll.
1 person likes this
• France
20 Aug 18
Thank you for your article. I live in Salency and I heard from the Mayor that a final decision will have to be made by the minister of the interior ( I think equivalent of Secretary of State in the US.)this looks like becoming very political. The feminist goups amassed 35 000 signatures in less than 48h. A counter petition is ongoing but struggling to make 500.
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@topffer (42156)
• France
20 Aug 18
Thank you very much for this response ! I would not have thought to get a response from somebody living in Salency, but this kind of things happens times to times here. I also believe that a préfet cannot take this decision, because of the 1905 law separating the state and the church, and forbidding to one to walk on the feet of the other. The minister of interior, maybe. I find the feminists stupid in the case of Salency, and your mayor not very bright to have at a point "added some water to their mill" like a French expression tells, but it is just my opinion. And as I see that it is your first intervention here, welcome to myLot, I hope that you will stay and enjoy this place !
@topffer (42156)
• France
20 Aug 18
@Salency018 Nice document, I suppose it may be worth gold for a Beatles' fan ! Happening in July, this Rose Queen was not a Queen of May, was she a "rosière" ? Lennon playing in a parish festivity is already fun, but it would be even more fun with a rosière.
1 person likes this
• France
20 Aug 18
@topffer Going slightly off track for a moment but The Rose Queen is linked to one of the most important events in modern musical history - the day Paul Mc Cartney and John Lennon met for the very first time. I stumbled upon this by accident one day when I was watching a Beatles documentary on TV. This is the flyer from that very day when John was playing with the Quarrymen. and his friend Ivan Vaughan introduced him to Paul Mc Cartney in the Church hall..The very next day Paul confirmed he would join John's group.
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@jstory07 (133739)
• Roseburg, Oregon
15 Aug 18
Thanks for sharing this. I learned something new.
@JESSY3236 (18760)
• United States
14 Aug 18
That sounds neat. The only competitions we have are beauty ones.
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@topffer (42156)
• France
14 Aug 18
I read that the oldest beauty competition in France was in 1920, while the first rosière in Salency was elected in 530. It would be a pity if Salency was not able to elect again a rosière because of a few people opposed to this kind of competition, but it may happen if the mayor gives up.
1 person likes this
@YrNemo (20272)
18 Aug 18
I read about this "Rosière" from some books (can't remember which ones!), but have never seen the above pic ever. Thought it was a group wedding .