atheists vs theists... why both sides can make sense
By soadnot
@soadnot (1606)
Canada
February 9, 2007 11:30pm CST
This is a debate about god and does not include religion in anyway so please don't use that as an argument. This thread is for agnostics, like me, to see which makes more sense. I am still not sure, thats why I want to hear your opinions.
1. Omnipotence
Is god omnipotent?
A)God can do anything, he is omnipotent.
B)Can god create a rock so heavy that he himself cannot make?
C)Yes, god can create make a rock so heavy that he himself cannot lift.
D) but, according to C, he cannot lift the rock
F) According to A, he should be able to lift that rock
G) However, if he lifts the rock, he has not created a rock that is "too heavy"
conclusion: God cannot create the rock that is too heavy for himself to create, therefor, god cannot create contradictions, therefor, god is not omnipotent.
So, if god is not omnipotent, does he deserve worship?
If god is not omnipotent, he is limited, he is limited like you and I are limited, so is it reasonable to worship a human? no.
2. However, theists can argue that these are the rules that god made for humans, he himself does not need to follow the laws of morals, humans.
3. On the other hand, atheists can argue if god is part of nature, he must be part of natures laws, and cannot break the laws of nature.
4. theists can again argue that god is above all.
The thing is, atheists use logic while theists use sense.
This is why im agnostic, there is no way we can know if god is or is above nature.
So what side are you on? Who do you agree with and why?
2 people like this
1 response
@headhunter525 (3548)
• India
10 Feb 07
It is rather difficulut to argue about God without talking about religion at all. Because there are differend religions and some relgions do not believe in god, some religions have god who are not very powerful , and other talks about a powerful god. So the question is what kind of god are we talking about? God revealed in the Bible or Koran or others like Agni, Brahma or what about goddesses?
Anyway, when classical theists say that God is omnipotent, it doesn't mean that God can do anything. God cannot create square-circle or God cannot exist and non-exist at the same time and so on. Square-circle is a logically impossibility because the word 'square-circle' makes no sense. Similarly, a rock that God himself cannot lift is a meaningless term because it is a non-existent entity.
But we need to first define the word 'god'? Only then we can discuss if such a god or a being exists.
@soadnot (1606)
• Canada
10 Feb 07
isnt it obvious here that we are talking about the "omnipotent god"?
but i agree, i have not explained myself as clearly as should have because i was a little tired.
Omnipotent, truly means "maximum power". God is the most powerful thing in the world. This "maximum power" cannot create contradictions.
If there was a factor, which could create contradictions, and have this "maximum power", it would a power more than gods power. However, this is not possible because god is maximum and there is no such thing than more than the maximum. Therefor, god cannot create contradictions, but he is the most maximumly powerful being.
So, my argument is... does this being deserve worship?
No.
It cannot do everything, that means it is limited. If you are limited, your just as powerful as a human being. "limit" is what defines mortality. If god is limited, does this mean god is mortal?
No.
If god is not mortal, but he is limited, it must mean that god is not a "being". otherwise known as "the state of knowing that your there, that you exist".
So does this mean god does not have a consciousness?
I conclude yes, another sign of limitation.
So does something that is "maximally powered" but cannot create contradictions and does not have a consciousness deserve worship?
I say no, but whats your opinion.
1 person likes this
@headhunter525 (3548)
• India
27 Feb 07
I think you are rather asking God to create a thing that must remain a non-existent entity. But asking God to create such an entity is meaningless.
Just because God cannot create a thing that must remain non-existent that does not mean that God does not deserve worship. He deserves your worship and my worship because He brought you and me into existence.
@soadnot (1606)
• Canada
28 Feb 07
what were we before god created us?
we were non-existant.
so god created us, and we became existant.
contridictions are also non-existant now.
so if god creates them, they will also become existant.
however, logicaly, god cannot create them.
so, god cannot do EVERYTHING
so, god is limited
so, god is not omnipotent
so, god does not deserve worship because he is limited like us.
however, you can say that god is above logic and he can create contridictions. but, if we say this, then there is no point of logic.
So, either there is no point of logic, or no point of god.
1 person likes this
