Deprogramming Islam

Thank you Red you have a very good point there but how would we go about liberating the women?

There was recently a situation in Germany where a mother's child murdered her because she desired to leave Islam, I know the women and men for that matter would be so much better off without the cult but how do we show them?

Remember, to show them they have to be able to see for themselves; we will either have to get them to look at it peacefully or be faced with a war of annihilation which will destroy society as we know it. Islam is forcing the hand of the rest of the world; nations have been accommodating Islam about as far as they can and when more enlightened nations and people demand a stop to it there will be a disaster.

I think the process of the liberation of Muslim women is underway as we speak. I think we only need to not get in the way of it. Muslim women are doing it themselves for the most part. When we see we can help we should, but I do not see how to anticipate what actions would help in advance of them being needed.

Abrahamic:

I have never transmitted anything of malice. Dispelling fables and delusions is not done from prejudice or preconceptions; these are what keep religion in vogue.

You usually spill out malice. Spreading misinformations without proper knowledge is nothing less than malice.

You are wrong Abrahamic; I spread no misinformation!

Where I refute the entire Judaic Pentateuch and their other books this comes from me knowing that the source of the material is not Judaic. The Israelites may well be the descendants of the Shasu who were the earliest people to worship the God of the Tetragammaton but the Shasu's worship practices and beliefs 1200 BCE were entirely different from Judaism of 2000 years ago with the excerption of the chief deity.

When it comes to Islam there is no reason to believe that it is not a simple rewrite of Judaism. There is no reason for anyone to believe Muhammad was a prophet as there is nothing he ever did which was great.

I do not say this out of malice but out of love; people that follow false beliefs and prostate themselves several times a day for a deity which does not exist are wasting their lives. It does not matter if they are happy in their delusion their lives are still being wasted; if you don't approve of this fact give me some material which refute it?

I gave you one historian,s book to read have you done anything about acquiring it?

What proof do you have gnosisquest that Islam is a rewrite of Judaism!?

To me, they are texts from same writer, same originator and same creator, so there are similarities but it doesn't mean that they are same or rewrite. In fact only an ignorant can say these words. Had you been to research circles, rather in fact no body needs to be there to understand this, you would have known that two research paper from same writer, (or even from different writers, for that matter) can have similarities being different at the same time. When a person publishes a follow up research paper, you can see many things similar to previous one, but no sane reviewing authority declares them rewrite unless they are ignorant of differences:-)

and it's really my love for you as human that is driving me to help you come out of false beliefs, delusions, misconceptions and prejudices. To see the world with right perspective, to learn, to come to knowledge, to leave behind the dark lenses you are wearing:-)

May GOD help you:-)

The proof I have that Islam is a rewrite of Judaism is that it follows the same nonsense.

It has adopted Abraham which was not a historical person. It talks about Moses which is a rewrite of the Egyptian account of the expulsion of the Hyksos under the Pharaoh Ahmose.

Other nonsense also exists but if Islam was really the message from a God there would not be the employment of false information.

go to my reply to the thread of Abraham:-)

Exactly; let's not kid ourselves and lay all the cards on the table!

The fact is that Islam and Christianity are based on a flawed reinterpretation of Ancient Near Eastern history and mythology.

There is no truth to the Judaic Bible or God; read my refutation of current religions and you'll find out. Here is a link to the refutation of Jesus which also has links to most of my other refutations: http://www.mylot.com/w/discussions/797397.aspx

The reason for all the crime and corruption comes from the flawed philosophical basis of society known as religion.

Maybe there is a God and maybe there isn't- that's a question of belief. But just because you don't believe in God you can't blame all corruption and evil on religion- that doesn't hold up at all. Incidently other species (other than humans that is) also commit 'crimes' (like murder, theft etc).

I think God is a poor term; I would word it a source and am convinced that a source of the spiritual exists of which we all are a part.

When it comes to crime and corruption excuses such as what you propose will never help.
Religion is a failure when it comes to bringing about a saner society and I have a discussion about this fact here: http://www.mylot.com/w/discussions/1056573.aspx

There are also other places where I have discussed the inherent goodness of spiritual man but the main problem which Christianity created was the idiotic notion we are sinners or evil.

A rose by any other name...and I'm not proposing excuses for crime or corruption, just saying that religion isn't an excuse.

Exactly; religion is not an excuse for crime and corruption, yet it is being employed by Muslims to perform atrocities today.

To be fair it is also employed as an excuse by Christians for their atrocities; there is no religion which makes a bad person good but it takes religion to make a good person bad!

I wish I could believe that is enough; remember when the Muslims invaded India?

My contention exactly, there were a lot of forced conversions and then some re-conversions too. But the an outsider (the British) - came in exploited the differences in religion and and left behind a cesspool of violence and hatred, as they did during the formation of Israel. I wish at that point of time the US had taken a firm stand against Churchill and helped the Jews as they wanted to rather than dithering the way they did, all this ultimately resulted in the formation of mass refugees and Palestine terrorists, which ultimately were the basic breeding grounds for Islamic fundamentalism (actually fundamentalism is a wrong term, I think extremest is more appropriate), and global Islamic terror. Of course a lot did happen, the above is just a nutshell.

Extremest then used religion wrongly and suddenly the world is divided along the lines of Muslims and others.

The way forward is love, understanding and acceptance first with slow subtle change for the better, rather than bombing any nation to rubble, as one of the US leaders threatened a while ago.

Tarachand:

You know that I do not hold the Christian faith in any higher esteem than the Islamic and the turmoil these two offspring of Judaism cause is because of the errors in their basic life philosophy.

The difference in my thinking is that love and patience will get us nothing, I could be wrong but don't think so and here is why:

The composition of every human being is love; all people are inherently beautiful and while I know we have talked about this before let me elaborate.

The love and beauty which is within each and every one of us can be very hard to accept. It is very easy to attribute this love to a God or the beauty to a forest glen with its waterfall and quietly grazing antelope.

The reason it is so hard to accept that the love and beauty come from within is because it does. We have a hard time forgiving ourselves for ay error or transgression. We demand perfection from ourselves and despise ourselves when this is not present. Therefore; since that beauty which is within us must get an outlet we attribute it to every other source but the true source.

The love within Muslims they ascribe to Allah, Mohammad and the Quran. This is easy to do and they then go on a quest to eradicate everything which would threaten this beauty. Every time someone states something about Mohammad or the Quran which they do not approve of they rebel because they feel they have been wronged and the beauty is about to be taken away.

The Christians are the same way regarding their Jesus and have ascribed to Jesus all the beauty which is within them. When I come here and state that there is no validity to any of this they feel as if their beauty is being robbed; get angry, say mean things, click minus on my star because they are protecting this beauty.

What must be understood is that there is no beauty in anything a person can perceive which is not in the person that can see the beauty: It is impossible for anyone to see beauty in nature or a God which does not reside within the person. It is impossible for any person to see love in a God or another animal or person that is not also within the person that perceive it.

In order to free the love and beauty so that it is available to the individuals it is necessary to remove it from these false Gods in order that all humanity can take the responsibility for being as beautiful and loving as they truly are.

I repeat love understanding and patience. maybe we can dream of a better world for our children or their children..... to reverse the current inertia, love and understanding and patience are the only viable solutions.

Scorn, annihilation will only result in more harm.

I can understand love and understanding for all people whether they are Muslims Christians and all others. I just can't understand not saying something about the philosophy they follow when I know its errors.

It is not that I don't want to discuss it is just that when someone states that Mohammad didn't come into contact with Judaism prior to the alleged writing of the Quran there is not much to discuss.

Evidence indicate beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is not the case; not only because of his reported contact with the different Israelite tribes that lived in Medina prior to Mohammad and his thugs killing them but because the Quran in numerous places makes the same mistakes regarding ancient history as the Judaic traditions.

You never refuted my posts all you did was post material which was dreamt up by later Muslims. Islam is not based on fact, if you read my refutation of Abraham as one example and saw my lengthy refutation you would know Abraham could never have lived as the Bible/Qumran depicts him.

how can you say that? i gave you solid proofs and facts! whereas you didnt provide any in your refutation!

Have you got solid reasoning behind your claim that Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) came into contact with Jews before announcing his prophet hood? and as for your claims of muslims killing off Jews you dont know the historical background of it! it was a war and in a war causalities do occur!

Here is just one of the multitudes of references to Muhammad having been in contact with the Israelites and their beliefs as early as when he was a child: http://www.faithfreedom.org/

Here is one of the other sites which also have reliable independent examinations of Muhammad:
http://ajnorge.0catch.com...

There is no doubt where Muhammad got his material from; Abraham is no prophet and his historical validity is about as accurate as snow white and the seven dwarfs. Basing any religion on such flawed material is irresponsible!

Sorry for the late reply, i was away for the weekend.

My friend when you conduct research why do you go to such biased and prejudiced websites who's only aim is to defame Islam and its Holy Prophet (Peace be Upon Him)? credible and honest research constitutes material taken from unbiased resources and not from ones who obviously have some vendetta against Islam, i am not suggesting you visit websites which you might term Islamic as well! all i am trying to say is that go to unbiased, third party sources which would give you a clear idea of things.

As for your proposed websites and their claim of the Holy Prophet coming in contact with Jews, I've already posted about it in one of your earlier discussions. That post of mine clearly sheds light on the earlier days of Mohammad (Peace be Upon Him) and how he couldnt have come into contact with Jews!

If you have any thing further to state please do so, i shall be glad to clarify things.

All the best

destroyer aka Ali

Destroyer:

It is not I or my sources which lie it is the Islamic community!

Have a look at what the worlds largest Encyclopedia states about your so called prophet: http://www.religionfacts....

As you can see the Muslims are misled about their leader as well.

The link you mentioned is broken, atleast i cant access it!

Please if you have time to spare, would you like to briefly tell me what was the page about?

Your reply would be appreciated.

The link is broken; it was a synopsis on a 35 page article on Muhammad from Encyclopedia Brittanica. It mentions how Muhammad worked as a caravan driver in his youth and came into contact with different people and different religion.

If you have a subscription to The Encyclopedia you can find the article there otherwise I personally have no desire to argue the notion that Muhammad did not have contact with people of the Jewish faith for there is abundant evidence that he did.

Here is the corrected link:

www.religionfacts.com/islam/history/prophet.htm

I want to understand why anyone would choose a moniker like destroyer and why? Are you by your choice of monikers trying to make some kind of a statement? What should be destroyed?

I think destroyer is one of those types who are totally closed and have made themselves impossible to reach. All I can say is destroyer has as much right to what they believe as anyone else just so long as they don't try and in any way force their ideals on anyone else who isn't choosing what they want of their own free will.

Once the force begins then I support intervention using any means necessary.

Thank you for correcting the link!

Muslims are very hard to reach for they brainwash themselves five times a day on their prayer rug. They desire to destroy all those with freedom.

I did take a look at the page and it is nonsense such as that which makes me cringe when thinking there are some people which take it seriously.

For example; "Divine Destiny - Allah has complete control of all that happens, both good and evil and He has full knowledge of it all".

If this was true Allah would be to blame for everything, not a single one of us could be blamed for anything we did or said.

If to surrender is to turn off a section of the mind the person who converts someone to Islam is a great criminal!

Yup, Muslim believe Allah controlled over and knowledge over everything i.e. both good and evil. If He has controlled over good only then He is weak as somebody else controlled the evil. Allah is not weak.

He has complete control over everything then: Muslim, non-muslim, world, hereafter, animal, tree etc. For a Muslim, when we see everything we will remember Allah as who has created all these things and He will create something new in the future.

Does Allah responsible for all good and bad things? Yes, we Muslim believe He did. This world and everything is His creation then He can do things His way. Allah creates a good child, a bad child, a beautiful flower, a man eating shark, good man/woman, ugly man and women, bacteria, virus, disease, medicine, all the nice things and dirty things.

Allah decide who will die today, who will born today, who will get sick today, and everthing. Yes, Allah create criminal and He create police too. God is the master creator, who can create this world better than Him? Professors in universities cant even understand this world yet. Most professors admires the way this world works rather than complaining.

Muslim, sunni Muslim in my case, believe that Allah decide everything but it is compulsory for every man and woman to do good did in order to get the bless of Allah. A Muslim do not know what Allah has decided for him but he knows his duty is to every good did that he can in order to get good reward and bless from Allah. A Muslim knows that Allah is the most merciful and the most just.

Some Muslim scholars believe that Allah will forgive all man and woman, muslim or not, because we are all harmless to Him. Man can even save himself from the food that he ate. I know a person died because he ate rice and choke. We are very weak too, some time food in our hand drop on dirty floor and we could not do a sh*t about it, the food is simply not ours. Man, including me, forget that he was weak like a baby yet very arrogance - thats what Quran told.

You don't need to tell me more the religion is absolutely useless.

Such a cult can inspire nothing useful in man because Allah is to blame, a useless cult creating useless people.

Please do not misunderstand; I am not saying the people are useless; it is when they follow such a philosophy they waste their lives and have no responsibility.

To show the world how truly wonderful you are I would suggest you leave the cult of pre-determination and live your own lives!

The common ground between me and other gnos out there is we found no other religion or beliefs that as convincing as ours.

That no other religion was as convincing as Islam does not say very much; adopting a set of beliefs in spite of the fact no satisfactory religion exists speaks volumes!

There is a satisfactory religion. When a humble person accepts that he is just a creation of the Master Creator then the person's heart will pure like a crystal. He will see everything in this world as it is rather as the person wants it to be. Later the Master Creator will communicate with the person.

(One thing about you gnosquest is I think you focus to much on negative side of religion. Why dont you give yourself a break by focusing on the goodness of religion. I am sorry if I am wrong.)

Gnos appreciate knowledge, you mentined about refering to facts or knowledge in your reply. There are many cheap and bias facts or knowledge around - we have to have a kind of filter, please explain what ontology you guys adopted?

If we start burning books or buildings it will only serve to lower us to the level of current JIC cultists. Destruction and killing for change always brings about a worse situation than the one which was unacceptable!

(JIC is short for Judaism, Islam and Christianity as well as just in case as most followers adhere to those religions just in case.)

Yeah but launching the Final Soultion on the Jews will end this worldwide madness.They as a race are deadly and aggresive.Wherever they go, they tend to destroy the peoples of the land they are settling in like in Egypt, Assyria, Babylonia, etc.They are still doing the same in the United States through their allowing illegal immigration, outsourcing jobs to countries like China and India and spending billions on the war in Iraq to bash "terrorism" which in fact the war is SUPPORTING terrorism.

"The Next Revolution will hopefully be the Final Solution"
-Max Resist