Chinese MyLotians

Oh, believe me I have but I know that the Chinese authorities repress the truth of the issue.

all the best urban

Have you ever been to Tibet? Tibet is belonged to China in history.Tibet locates next to India,as we all know,India used to be UK's colony,and the indian army which was led by the UK intrude Tibet through India in 1903,people of Tibet fighted with the intruder but end up with failure.So in one period,Tibet was under the control of UK,until the liberation of China.Very regret that my English is poor,i can not express my thought freely,but i suggest you come to China and visit Tibet for one time,you will find the truth there,just by your own eyes and heart but not by other people's words!I think it will be a valuable trip for you!TKS!

Ann, people from different countries will have different views on a certain political issues that we have taken the present status for granted. Hearing different opinions are good, no matter they are well-grounded or groundless. The history books that Chinese and British people read are very different. Therefore, it is natural to hear all kinds of voices. I think he is also inviting heated discussions.

However, I agree with your points that Tibet is conventionally the territory of China. And it is for the utmost interest of the Tibet people to be a citizen of China.

What is more important is that the Tibetans themselves considered themselves a separate country and were recognised as such by the international community. Britain never conquered Tibet as you seem to suggest but rather granted it protectorate status in return for permission to travel freely through this country. As has been pointed out histories of different countries differ and some are groundless, it is well known that China prohibits its citizens access to certain web sites where they might learn the truth about Tibet. Again, in order to resolve conflicting accounts the consensus of the international community must be sought, and they recognise that Tibet was an independent state.

all the best urban

Furthermore, Tibet was historically an independent state and at the time of the Chinese invasion of 1949 Tibet had been de facto a independent state, conducting relations with other states independently, recognised by other states and operating independently.

all the best urban

I like how you open cans of worms! You know that the Chinese are never going to admit that Tibet was ever a free independant country! Nor will they ever allow it to be again!

But keep that can opener going!
Shalom,Adoniah

Dealing with the points you raise

"Tracing back to the Shakespeare age, T was announced the natural territory of China "

But China announcing that Tibet is part of its territory means nothing any more than Tibet announcing that China was part of its territory.

"So it gives some people the impression that it was an independent country, which it was not."

This is just your claim with no supporting evidence.

"No country knows T better than China" Except Tibet itself

So, you admit that at one time Tibet was not part of China, when then did it become so, according to you?

The idea that British enslaved the Tibetans is ludicrous especially when, as you point out yourself, they did not come armed.

Tibet as an independent nation is recorded in history as long ago as 7th Century when the then King, Namri Lonstan sent an ambassador to China.

From the 7th to 11th Centuries a series of Tibetan Emporers ruled Tibet, their Empire extending as far as Bengal and parts of Mongolia. Thus at this time is was more than just a separate state but head of an empire.

After 200 years, following the death of Langdarma, their was a struggle over succession and civil was resulted. The empire became divided.

In 1244, the Mongols recognising Tibet as an independent state began negotiations for its surrender. It is around this time that China also came into the Mongol empire.

Thus there is ample evidence until 1244 that Tibet was an independent state. Khubilai left both the Chinese and Tibetan legal and administrative systems intact and operating independently and whilst the Chinese system of exams nor Neo-Confucian policies operated in China there were not implemented in Tibet.

As the Mongol empire faded to be replaced by China, administration of Tibet passed to China but it is important to note that this was as a conquered country.

In the 18th century the Dalai Lama became sovereign of Tibet, the executive function delegated to a council of ministers. Thus sovereignty was restored, although the Chines insisted on retaining the right to dictate choice of Dalai Lama.

Following an invasion by Gurkhas, Tibet called on Chinese military aid and this lead to China attempting to tighten its control over this sovereign state. This control wained to being a mere formality, appointment of the Dalai Lama being approved in Bejing after the event.

As British forces caused the retreat of Tibetan influence in Nepal and the power of the Qing government declined.

In 1841 cessation of hostilities with the Punjabs was concluded by the Tibetians without recourse to Bejing and again in 1856 Tibet made peace with Nepal without recourse to Bejing.

The Chinese claim that at this time Tibet agreed to allegiance with China. Now only a sovereign state can make allegiance.

Thus we can see that Tibet has been an independent state, a ruler of an empire, an subjugated state under first the Mongols and then the Chinese. We can also see it emerge from Chinese control, once again as an independent state.

In the late 19th Century British empire agents were actively trading in Tibet and Britain In 1893 China signed, by Ho Chang-Jung, a treatise with Britain from which I quote,

"In the event of trade disputes arising between British and Chinese or Tibetan subjects in Tibet..." thus we can see that China recognised the existence of Tibetan citizens and therefore of a Tibetan state.

On 8th January 1913 Tibet and Mongolia signed treatise mutually recognising the sovereignty of each.

Following revolution in China, Tibetan forces expelled remaining Chinese military and Chinese officials signed a document providing for the expulsion of all Chinese forces from Tibet.

In 1914 British Chinese and Tibetan representative met and a document was drawn up giving Tibet independence from Chinese control whilst Tibet remained nominally under Chinese Suzarianty.(It is important to note that Suzarianty does not confer sovereignty to China, thus Tibet still remains a Sovereign state)

Despite agreeing to this China then reneged on the agreement, never the less having agreed any moral claim to sovereignty surely ceases.

Between 1920 and 30 China attempted unsuccessfully to reassert sovereignty and again this alone is sufficient to cede Tibet as an independent state.

From this period China had no representation in Tibet, this not being re-established until a mission was sent in 1934

Tibet remained de-facto independent of Chinese control from 1912 until the Chinese invasion. Thus its sovereignty cannot be in doubt.

all the best urban

wow...cool..kentbush~
You know so much~ and your English is pretty good~ you are great~ Because I'm not good at English, I can't exprees my feelings freely to this duscussion. I just want to say I can't agree more with you, it's no doubt that Tibet belongs to China.

if it depends on your theory,maybe USA should be returned to indian.

It's interesting to notice that whenever people mention the communist, people tend to use negative adjectives. What I want to say communism is not as cruel and wicked as you ever heard of. Look at the deaths in Iraq, look at the abused prisoners in the Guantanamo prison. Would you like to say all these are for the best interests of people? No government's arse is clean. This is my point, so please don't always target the communism. Please also condemn the capitalists who have committed and are still committing the brutal acts.

You condemned China for the atrocities they had committed, what kind of atrocities? They oppressed the original monks or serf owners when they give freedom to the lower class of T people? You tend to credit all the problems to the China's intervention to the regional affairs and consider all its intervention as atrocities, which is not subjective. I cannot say all its acts are dignified, for no country is always doing dignify things without making a single mistake. But taking all associate aspect into consideration, the communist party is doing good in T. It is trying to make it better. It builds a railroad connecting the central region of China and T. It give favourable policies to support the livelihood of the T people, some policies even make us Han People envy. One may interpret this as an act to better control T. But no matter what one says. People from T are benefiting from this railroad and policies. I cannot imagine this all would ever happen if T and China are different countries.

I am a university student, and I have schoolmates from T. I have many times asked them what the real things are like in T. They told me much the same as what we see on Chinese TV. But please remember, my Tibetan schoolmates are not communists and they have their own religious believes. I can quite imagine what a image it is to see T from the west point of view -- T is sinking from the earth because of the communist. Interesting, you can see the effects of media manipulation -- whenever it is something about the Communist, it is all about its intention to sink the world with its arsenal. But one really need to talk with the local people, of course not those claimed leaders because these bunch of people have political bias can will choose to tell you the information they want you to know.

OK, now imagine we all agree that T is an independent state, which factually I disagree, and China hands over the sovereignty to the so-call rightful owner -- the Monk or the serf owners, what will happen? Back to the serf system? Is that what you want to see? I believe not. So better keep it as it is now.

Oh, by the way, talking about the artefacts, may I kindly remind you of the artefacts that are still on display in British and American museums that the western allied forces 'borrowed' from the royal palaces and even temples in T in the previous wars with China, and also ruins of the Winter Palace that still exist in Beijing? Tell me they are the acts of communism. But one thing I should point out is that those Chinese artefacts are indisputably in foreign countries museums but artefacts from T are preserved in China.

I agree all countries involved should return all that they have stolen from the Tibetians and allow these awesome people to have their lives back and their religion back!!