"Because the women here have so many rights, they become immodest"   

I'm with you. IF this is how women are treated by their men over there, it makes me glad I don't live there. Women are viewed as property and are treated as much. They have no real rights and they can't do a lot of things men can do.

Sounds fair to me.

This post contains content of a mature nature. You must be Signed in or Registered to have the option to view this content.

This post contains content of a mature nature. You must be Signed in or Registered to have the option to view this content.

No we in the west treat our pets b etter than they treat thier women!

Owlings,are you seeing something Im not,because I think you have lost it.

Wow, a very sad story taken by a Kurd, an evil an violent man, who killed his divorced wife in a very brutal way. I remember many cases of white nutters who kill and beat their wives. Recently, a divorced man who had a restraining order in England, went to his former wife's home, got the kitchen knife and repeatedly stabbed her in front of their two infant children.

Yet, its funny, even Snclain, who wrote this piece, did not mention Islam as I did not for my own example. Yet Owlings somehow laughably attributed this to Islam and her hate for it. Snclan topic is credible in that she talks about women's rights and an example of pathetic men. However, do not attack Islam for it does not merit such actions.

Islam is still in the same state culturally as it was 1500 years ago, which tells me that it's not a religion for all people for all time. Any more than the Amish are. It's easy to see why people reject God when they read about crap like this.

Great question, redyellow, for the answer to them is simple. Kazim, like any other delusional, cannot take rejection and avenged his rejection. It certainly does not aspire to the will of God or any faith related, just corruptive practices in cultural traditions. In the US, there are number of such killings, wife beating, child beatings and respective murders. Some of these are horrific.

For example, a court case, televised in the US, show a man full of rage about his girlfriend. He eventually stabbed her to death because he was jealous about her talking to other men. This guy was a big guy with a short fuse. In court his brother and himself created a mele of violence by leaping out and attacking the trial officers. It took about 8 security guards to cuff and restrain them. This was nothing to with religion - just male testerone. Also remember, the guy who locked his daughter in the cellar for 24 years and fathered a number of children.

So these evil people, are found in all cultures and faiths - they will murder for there perverted ways of life and selfish personas.

SnCain, and Owling however, seem to bring in Islam, for a case which is not really that common, but make news because its interesting. So I don't know where the 1500 years and Islam have anything to do with it, except the Kurd in question was a Muslim. But the examples I gave above, one American but I dont know if he was Christian. Evil is the right word, these people to not attribute anything to their faith and are disgrace to whichever country they belong.

Snclain, I hope would restrain from attributing all petty negativities to anything remotely Islamic - for I am telling her, that she has a grave misconception about Islam and its truth.

I didn't realize you were Bahai...but I can imagine your feelings toward Islam are pretty bitter then. The persecution of your people is legendary.

Allah'u'Abha Raydene!

My parents embraced the Baha'i religion when I was very small. I strayed from it as a young adult, but once I began having kids of my own, I found my way back. I have never found any other religion that cherishes it's children more then the Baha'i faith, or teaches them the fine art of truly living peacefully.

related resource: adult living

One thinks that no matter how long he is in prison he will never feel the pain of what he did, which makes me wonder; what kind of culture breeds people like that? Who thinks murdering one's wife for wanting a divorce is justified?

I can tell you: A culture that has little value for human life and values blind obedience over compassion.

This in itself can be the greatest reason that the religion is wrong.
They have absolutely NO regard for the fellow man and have no guilt, no conscience, no compassion, no humanity.... NOT a scrap of humanity.

If you can stab another person and light them on fire while alive and plot to shock anyone who tries to intervene to save the person.... This is not a human but a beast!
Only beasts were designed to kill without regret.
Even beasts have an actual reason to kill.... food or defense.

Humans were designed to have sympathy and a conscience, this is why most of us have it.... they remove all shred of humanity from these people and tell them that killing is good if you claim it in the name of the god/religion....

This is the product of that culture?
A culture of murderers?
Whole generations stuck in uncivilised times of the dark ages set free upon enlightened civilised societies.... It is bound to be a receipe for disaster and this is INDEED proven over and over with not only all these suicide bomber attacks on countries all over (And to each other for pete's sake) but on to their treatment of their very own creators.... their women. It is like they turn on their mothers....
What kind of culture is this?

Why should this man feel guilt, he did nothing wrong. He did what his god commanded he do. He will now get an extra virgin when he goes to paradise, you know like extra virgin olive oil, never squeezed.

they were lied to by thier prophet they dont get 72 virgins inparadice theymay get one 72 yr old one forthis guy she would have to be 73 yrs old

Great question showing respect and intellect on the first part - except you ruined it by causing the religion evil.

Why do you hate Islam so much? Why are you scared of its purity and peaceful truth? Why do you not respond to your misquotes on Islam when I correct them>? And lastly, why do you resort to insults about Islam, (similar to whatshername and owlings above) but you are totally ignorant to the true facts of Islam.?? It is like going into a playground with kids, while some (ie you) are brandishing slogans of collective hate, creating groups to fight.

Is this really peaceful method, I ask? Or are you just afraid, that Islam itself is so pure and peaceful, you must deny and prevent others from denying because you would alter your petty way of life for the better? What better way to prove the truth? When people like yourselves brandish false allegations openly about the religion, its founder and its Holy Book.

Peace

I know...it's hard not to become angry. When I read this I became so angry I started a discussion...I just want people to KNOW about these things, because the more people know the more people can work to CHANGE the situation, the culture, the belief that women are property.

You know, if this happened among any other group, we would be rightly outraged and shocked, because in any other culture this is seen as a gross abberation, but this kind of behavior is NORMAL for those who live in backward, paralyzed Islamic cultures.

This post contains content of a mature nature. You must be Signed in or Registered to have the option to view this content.

I don't know who's lying, but I do know that that young woman died a horriffic death in front of her own child on a public street because people are too afraid to call a spade a spade and deal with these situations more effectively.

Beautifully said. Thank you.

Thanks for best response! If you had any idea how distracted I was when I wrote it... I am just glad it made sense and conveyed what I was trying to say.

:o)

My point exactly HouseKat, and for SndCain to give you best response, means that she can also understand that what these people do are not to with Islam and its faith in the same context as HouseKat points out. So please refrain from labelling Islam as the cause.

That man was a product of his culture. Period. And that culture is shaped and molded by Islam. He felt justified in murdering his wife because his culture bred that in him. If they had been in an Islamic country that poor woman wouldn't have been allowed to leave her husband no matter what. She would have had to suffer in silence because in Islamic countries women get no protection against abusive husbands.

Rather than argue this with me, why don't you try to educate your brothers and sisters? I don't need the education; I'm not a Muslim. I would never allow a man to have absolute control over me. I don't live in a country that gives my husband the right to treat me like property.

Sndcain,

“That man was a product of his culture. Period. And that culture is shaped and molded by Islam.”

That’s where you are preposterously wrong. If you are unable to differentiate culture from religion, if you are unable to differentiate between the cultural aspects shaped by Islam and the aspects that have no relation to Islam then you are inept to appreciate the mental faculties of reasoning and critical thinking and to develop proper causation! If he felt justified because of culture then that does not reasonably translate to his deed being inspired by Islam.

I have shared with you related Quranic verses, if Quran asks him to kill his wife for demanding divorce then you will be justified in making that relation. Quran asks its followers to part with wife in kindness. If an authentic hadith has asked him to kill his wife for demanding Divorce, then you would be justified in your assertion.

“If they had been in an Islamic country that poor woman wouldn't have been allowed to leave her husband no matter what. She would have had to suffer in silence because in Islamic countries women get no protection against abusive husbands.”

Yes, women are abused in Muslim countries and they are abused in other countries including yours. But, your sweeping statement that they can’t get a divorce in Muslim countries is an ill-educated rather ignorant observation/information of yours. You need to get off the ship of Anti-Islamic sites. Thousands of divorces happen in my country (Pakistan) and many other Muslim countries a year, initiated by women. That you don’t know it just shows how much brainwashed you are.

“Rather than argue this with me, why don't you try to educate your brothers and sisters? I don't need the education;”

In fact sndcain, you need no less of education than Muslims. And, I not only try, I DO educate people. Some are just stubborn and brainwashed on both sides!

"What was missing from the discussions was honest acceptance, by the posters, of their ignorance and their lack of critical thinking while they were calling for a need of critical thinking in Muslim world (rightly so)."

Hello Dear Kamran.

I am as guilty of this as anyone else. For this I would apologize. I can only speak for myself here but I venture to say that there are many people like me and who feel the way I do. Sometimes I see something in a news article or news story that is so horrific that it just pisses me off. These atrocities, hurt me, they cut into my soul until I want to scream stop. At that point I am angry and wishing the annihilation of a whole religious culture and peoples. I want to lash out and see justice to these fanatics who kill under an umbrella of faith. My reaction is from fear. Fear of something I do not understand, fear of it touching my life, the lives of those I love, and the country I love.

I for one so appreciate your showing us scripture that teaches the opposite of what we hear, see and have come to believe. This alone will eventually, change attitudes.

"May those who yearn for critical thinking in others, work on their own critical thinking!"

Your right my Friend.

He who has no sin, may cast that first stone.
~Tammi

Hello Angelwhispers,

Your getting infuriated over such despicable things is natural and only shows your live humanity. Every human who has a heart should feel disgusted over such occurrences. I get infuriated three folds, one over the happening itself, second on the fact that it could have been stopped but no adequate effort was made and third on people making illogical links between alleged cause and effect.

There are a lot of problems in Muslim world but when people try to make undeserved causation, I just can’t stand it. If Hitler said that he is completing the mission of Jesus and that he is doing what Jesus couldn’t do, how can I take him serious and hold Christianity as Culprit for Hitler’s actions when what he did was/is against the teachings of Jesus.

First Judaism was targeted and Jews were demonized that led to historical animosity between Christianity and Judaism. In those times, Jews considered Muslims to be their friends and protectors. This folly peaked in last century and the holocaust happened. Then, in the canals of history Christianity was targeted for reasons that were not actually the part of Christianity itself. Now it’s Islam’s term. There is a whole malicious campaign against religions, in general. I had a discussion over this subject. Yes, Jews, Christians and Muslims do share the blame, partially, for what happened to them. While I accept their crimes, I do not support an all out war against them for reasons that are more suited to other philosophies.

Media corporations with their vested interests serving their masters coupled with ignorance of Muslims and their not moving forward as a whole as well as laziness of non-Muslim people in investigating the truth and their failure to make sound and appropriate judgment is a perfect recipe for yet another looming historical disaster just around the corner. If people don’t realize it well in time, we are headed for a major clash and I don’t know if I’ll be alive to discuss the aftermath. I am not trying to act as an alarmist here, yet, I see a developing pattern that has repeated itself again and again in the course of human history.

You cannot, no matter how hard you try, divorce Islam from the culture in which it was found. In fact, that is one of the main differences between Islam and Christianity; Christianity as a religion bears little resemblance to the world in which is was born, and yet one of the BRAGGING points of Islam is that it is still the same as it was 1500 years ago. But it is that stagnation that is the cause of so much violence and ignorance in the Muslim world.


You accuse me of lacking critical thinking skills but Kamran old friend, you lack the ability to see what is right in front of you. We're not talking about made up accusations like "Jews eat babies" - the reasons for mistrust of Islam and Muslims is because of the OVERWHELMING evidence for that mistrust. So you fall back on "It's the media's fault" and while I hate the media too, the isn't just making stuff up. This is is HAPPENING EVERYDAY. And it's not just random violence it's violence in the name of ISLAM.

I realize non Muslims kill their wives. But the WAY that man did it is very telling because it was the work of a deluded fanatic who believed his actions were condoned by his GOD. And the fact that abuse against women in Islamic countries is EPIDEMIC, it's hard NOT to make the connection.

You shared verses about how nice the Quran is toward women but I can share verses from the Quran that say a man can beat his wife or that a woman's testimony is worth HALF of a man. Now, you expect me to take YOUR verses at face value, but the ones that demean women are "misunderstood" though the majority of the the Arab world understands them the way I do. So you can't have it both ways.

Dear, I am VERY educated regarding Islam But as I am not a Muslim or a bleeding heart liberal, I have come to very different conclusions that you.

You use the "1000s of divorces in Pakistan" as evidence of what? The failure of Islam? What does that prove?

PS. I have a copy of the Quran, as well as several books written by Muslims. I don't just go to "anti Islamic" sites. You are showing your ignorance here. You think that if I just studied Islam with an open mind then I would feel differently. That is typical Muslim narrow mindedness. You can't fathom how someone wouldn't love your religion if they just opened their mind to it. But I've been studying Islam for years.

Sndcain,

You actually prove my point about lack of critical thinking prevalent on here, and I have found it in all critics of Islam including the intelligent people like you and others whose main sources are the religious thugs rather than serious scholarship. Yes, I have also found few, who truly love to ‘know’ than to clash.

“You cannot, no matter how hard you try, divorce Islam from the culture in which it was found. In fact, that is one of the main differences between Islam and Christianity; Christianity as a religion bears little resemblance to the world in which is was born”

You are either wrong about Islam or you are wrong about Christianity, both statements can’t be true at the same time. Islam, as a religion, was and is much different than the culture it was found in just as Christianity was different from the culture it was found in as a religion. Women were practically dealt as properties and were denied rights in most of the Christian world up until last Century. The scenario changed radically in three decades after WWII. If you like, I would write history of America and Europe for you with references to back my claims. And, if you want to take it on ground realities than Biblical women were less privileged then Muslim women of early Islam having right to own property, do trade (Muhammad’s wife was herself a trader), call for divorce from their husbands, right to criticize and practically oppose the ruler, lead campaigns and become scholars.

“one of the BRAGGING points of Islam is that it is still the same as it was 1500 years ago. But it is that stagnation that is the cause of so much violence and ignorance in the Muslim world.”

There is some truth to this statement, yet, It is bragging point of “some” muslim groups (not Islam) that Islam is same. The real bragging point is that the Quran is same and the principles are same. Islam has an institution, called Ijtihad, which works against stagnation. Though it was abandoned by Sunni Islam Centuries ago but remained in tact with Shia Islam. There are growing numbers of Sunni scholars who argue for this institution to be reinstated.

“You accuse me of lacking critical thinking skills but Kamran old friend, you lack the ability to see what is right in front of you.”

I don’t lack that ability young friend, In fact, if you read my comment in response to Angel, it states:

“There are a lot of problems in Muslim world but when people try to make undeserved causation, I just can’t stand it. If Hitler said that he is completing the mission of Jesus and that he is doing what Jesus couldn’t do, how can I take him serious and hold Christianity as Culprit for Hitler’s actions when what he did was/is against the teachings of Jesus.”

Showing clearly what my point of contention is, which you are unwilling to see because of well known reasons (to me and perhaps to you as well)! Hitler was just an example. History is filled with atrocities Committed by Christians in the name of Religion. And, I am not talking about far off history. Many of the crimes of Reagan administration were committed in the name of religion. So, your implied point from “This is is HAPPENING EVERYDAY. And it's not just random violence it's violence in the name of ISLAM” that doing something in the name of Islam makes Islam culprit still doesn’t make any sense. If it does, ridiculously so, for some people then Christianity is more of a culprit than Islam. Secular forces that committed greater crimes are even more culprit.

“And the fact that abuse against women in Islamic countries is EPIDEMIC, it's hard NOT to make the connection.”

Your point is still incongruous, I am afraid. Abuse against women is an epidemic in America and Europe too. Would you like me to present studies, statistics and opinions of social scientists and human rights organizations? And, do tell me, in the name of What, do the American husbands/men commit domestic violence against women and in what name they justify it? Also, do you consider their justifications, whatever they may be, to be VALID!!!?

“But the WAY that man did it is very telling because it was the work of a deluded fanatic who believed his actions were condoned by his GOD.”

Someone’s belief doesn’t make it a two way connection, young friend. Whatever you said is right except for what you imply!:-)

The way Hitler (and European Christians) did what he did is very telling, especially his taking “revenge” from Jews, Yet, It DOES NOT entail that his action was condoned by GOD or Jesus!!! Period!

“I can share verses from the Quran that say a man can beat his wife or that a woman's testimony is worth HALF of a man.”

Whilst you accuse others of deflection and irrelevance, do you see your deflection here, sndcain? That you are shifting focus from whether or not what that man did was Islamic!? And turning it into to a general discussion of rights of women in Islam! So, I won’t go into that for now. If you insist, however, I’ll be glad to discuss those issues.


“Dear, I am VERY educated regarding Islam But as I am not a Muslim or a bleeding heart liberal, I have come to very different conclusions that you.”

You are entitled to whatever conclusions or opinions you have. My opinion is that you, like many others (you are not alone), are ‘educated’ by religious thugs! It’s not difficult to distinguish between the one who follows serious scholarship and the one who follows religious thugs.

“You use the "1000s of divorces in Pakistan" as evidence of what? The failure of Islam? What does that prove?”

LOL!, it was in response to your uninformed assertion that if they were in Muslim country, the woman wouldn’t have been allowed to leave her husband. I see that you sliced last part of my statement…”initiated by women”!:-) you are so intelligent, sndcain, for yourself!:-)

“But I've been studying Islam for years.”

If one has prejudice and preconception, no matter how long one studies, one can’t get the soul of the reality! If one is studying for the purpose of finding faults, one will see the faults anyway! If one is not sincere in learning and knowledge, no matter how many thousands of books one goes through, it will not happen to affect him/her!:-)

I think I'm with kamran here. Sorry sndcain but you are confusing culture and religion. The culture in which this man is born is the horrible one, not Islam. The idea of "the woman should obey, if not she has to be punished" is part of a lot of cultures, like in Italy, the Catholic country, we had the "honor murder" (You could kill your wife for honor reasons and spend only 2 years in prison).
I've known a lot of Muslim when I lived in Paris and they were very kind with girlfriends and women in general also*because of* the Quran (it's said you should respect women) and they were like that also because they were born in Paris and grown up in a healthy environnement.
You shouldn't blame Islam but the culture of this horrible man, no matter in what name he's acting the blame is his.

kamran- You are saying sh eis lacking in critical thinking because she is a female right? Because you as a male know more and can think better right?

You prove the point

Anyway you say she dredges up negative srticles about Islam.... well I have yet to see a positive one ever written of a muslim doing anything positive.

Rowena, knowing "nice Muslims" doesn't prove anything about Islam. I'm sure there were "nice Nazi's" and I know there are "evil Christians". If you don't want people to judge Islam based on the actions of a few "bad" apples, then it's not fair to judge it based on the fact that you know "nice" Muslims.

This isn't about whether Muslims are nice or evil. There are good and bad people in every society and culture. That's where you guys are missing my point.

I've got to get to bed, but I will be back to address Kamran's post. But Kam old friend, you still haven't proven to me that Islam as a culture is reponsible for the giant mess the Muslim world is in. You talk talk talk, but I have a whole lot of concrete evidence to back up my claims and you have, well, not much.

I think you've answered yourself
"There are good and bad people in every society and culture"
That's exactly what I'm saying. Islam is not bad per se, there are bad Muslims and good Muslims, and the bad ones are not bad because of Islam but because they are illiterate and mysogynist and listen to the first Imam who says women are rubbish. Muslim who are born in a positive environnement are not bad.

You think I'm saying that Muslims are bad people, and that is a serious misunderstanding of my point.

By saying "Muslims born into good environments are not bad" you prove exactly what I'm saying. What I'm saying is a closed Islamic culture IS a bad environment. That man, had he not been born into a religious culture that demeaned women more than likely wouldn't have set his wife on fire for wanting a divorce.

Kamran, you’ve yet to disprove any accusations I’ve made about Islam. You know that you can’t so deflect by attacking my knowledge base. You accuse me of consulting “religious thugs” instead of serious scholars—by serious scholars I suppose you mean only people who are sympathetic to Islam? Because there are PLENTY of serious scholars who have nothing but contempt for Islam.

As for the respective differences between Islam and Christianity, the historical paths of the two religions have differed greatly since the middle ages. Islam has never had the benefit of a reformation like the one that permanently altered Christianity. Rather than embrace its skeptics and its challenges to the religious authority as Christianity was forced to do, Islam clamped down even tighter, so much so that free thought and expression were very nearly extinguished.

As for women of the Bible, there is nothing in scripture that prohibits women from owning property or being treated as equals; and in fact women of the Bible were some of the most powerful movers and shakers extant. If you want I can give you exact examples. In fact, Jewish women were and still are some of the most liberated women in that part of the world. Only the ancient Catholic church, which took many of it’s cues from the pagan misogynistic Greek and Roman cultures, defrauded women of their rights.

Citing the abuses of the Christian church and its culture actually proves my argument about Islam. For hundreds of years the Catholic church WAS Christianity. The influence is still felt today. It wasn’t until brave souls challenged the status quo and risked everything, even death, to stand up and say “this is wrong and we’re not going to stand for it anymore” that things began to change. And that change didn’t come because people like you defended and apologized for the abuses.

As for the supposed “rights” of women in Islam, you have to deal with the reality rather than the theory, because when you start talking about “should” you aren’t dealing with what “is”, which is that the state of affairs for Muslim women at large is sadly abysmal. And until you and other Muslims are willing to deal with it rather than tell people like me I am wrong nothing is going to change.

For the record, I am a BIG fan of Ijtihad. Ijtihad will be the one and old thing that can change Islam from what it is today to the ideal that you hold on to. But first Islamic “authorities” need to stop killing and imprisoning those who question the status quo.


If Hilter said he was doing the work of Jesus, all you’d have to do is pick up a Bible and know he was lying. However, much of the justification for the evil done in Islam is taken from the words of the Quran and the prophet. So equating evil done in the name of Christianity to the evil done in the name of Islam is pretty dishonest and only fools those who’ve never read the bible or the quran.

The term Islamic fundamentalist is inappropriate, for there is a vast different between Christianity and Islam. Most Christians have moved away from literal interpretation of Scripture, thus we can reasonably distinguish between fundamentalist and non fundamentalist Christians. But Muslims have not moved away from the literal interpretation of the quran: all Muslims, not just a group we call fundamentalists, believe that the Quran is LITERALLY the word of God and therefore unassailable.


I have to go to work but I'll be back to finish this.

Hello RowenaTheWitch!

Thank you for your understanding and offering your comment, I appreciate, really!

Many people confuse culture and religion, personalities and religion, institutions and religion, sect and religion..etc. Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Gnostics, Pagans all do those things in the name of religion, customs, pride and honor. In west, it is done with different names, mainly jealousy. There are quite a few wives/women killed in west by their partners every year.

But, I’ll tell you that even in those cultures, this man’s despicable action isn’t the representation of all, rather his action is, in fact, an exception even in that culture. There are other violations though which are also present in other places on this planet. I know quite a few Muslims (and from other religions in same cultures) who are very respectful humans, not only to their wives but to humans in general. Interestingly, many of my friends who are well versed in Quran are much more respectful towards their wives than liberals in my society who are away from Quran.

The only difference is that when a Christian, a Hindu, a Gnostic, or a Jew kills his wife, their religion isn’t blamed. In fact, they aren’t even mentioned in news often, let alone to make a connection between the person and the religion.

Hello sirenssanssmile,

Welcome Back!:-)

When I visited this thread yesterday and read what all was there, I was surprised that you haven’t been resurrected as yet, after your long absence! In fact, I suspected, along with you, two others too, that they will bless this thread with their appearance. But, at least you are here, so, Welcome back!

Anyways, leaving aside the irrelevant…sirensanssmile, I did give my reasons as to why I said what I said and none of them were sexist, or were they? If you have known me, which I would suppose you don’t, you would have realized that I have confronted with men more than I have clashed with women here and I have done it head on. And, here you are, accusing me of being sexist and making a hasty judgment about me that I said that BECAUSE she is a female!!!

It was not just about her; here we have a group of MALES and females, who, because of their prejudices and misperceptions are unable to discern the culture and the religion or person and the religion and as they talk about the need of critical thinking in Muslim societies (rightly so), I was reminding them to have a look in their backyard too. In no way, it was a personal attack (I was addressing to the group as would be clear from my statement), but I do understand how it would have come across.

Sirensanssmile, There are way too many things good and positive about Muslims, everyday. There are Muslims everyday doing heroic things…But, they aren’t news worthy!! And they aren’t on agenda! I have known even some who GAVE their lives for their wives (to save them from accident or some assault), there are those who spend their wealth even on non-Muslims and keep much less for themselves. There are many whose mission of life is welfare of poor and underprivileged and they spend days and nights in their missions. Try to search for Abdul sattar edhi, just for an example in my country (Pakistan). He and his wife Bilquis have devoted their lives for welfare. How many times have you heard about them? I don’t know if you even know him!!

Hello sndcain,

When was ‘I’ supposed to disprove your accusations? It is you who bears the burden to PROVE your accusation that what that man did was BECAUSE of Islam. For my part, I provided related Quranic Verses to back MY claim that it had nothing to do with Islam. And, I asked you to bring evidence, if any, and as you could not possibly back your assertion with evidence, you indulged yourself with deflection by shifting focus from cold blooded murder, because of divorce, to general status of women in Islam!!!

And, I didn’t shy away from your “other” assertions either, not only in this thread but the other one too. In this, I said that as your other points are not relevant to discussion, so I’ll not touch them “for now” but if you insist I’ll talk about them. In the other discussion where the author accused Islam and Muhammad of certain things and I said those were lies, except, ‘perhaps’ for one…you came and said that you have studied Quran and Islam and what the author is saying is right. I called your bluff and invited you to produce evidence from your study of Quran!!! You never brought forward your “knowledge” of Quran to back the conclusions of the author (and yours). So, who’s not disproving…or proving!?

As for the comparisons:

“ In fact, Jewish women were and still are some of the most liberated women in that part of the world. Only the ancient Catholic church, which took many of it’s cues from the pagan misogynistic Greek and Roman cultures, defrauded women of their rights.”

First: Are you sure you want to make comparisons and enter into that realm!?

Second: How beautifully you described, in the second part of above quoted paragraph, that it was the “Catholic Church” which defrauded women of their rights!! So, may I ask:


1. When was the Catholic Church instituted?

2. Are other Christian major denominations (Orthodox, Protestant…and denominations within them) free of women rights violations, historically and now?


I asked these questions because, in case, you choose to compare, I could tell you about the status of women before institution of Catholic Church and after its downfall, as well as their status in other denominations. I promise that unlike you, I’ll back my claims by textual evidence, in case, I am referring to Bible; or early church fathers, or to histories, in case, I am talking generally.

As for the supposed rights of women in Islam: sndcain, when I talk about “should”, it is because of my desire to see what I want en mass (overwhelming compliance to decency and humanity). But, as a matter of fact, it is reality too. Men on positive side are much more than the man in this example. I have shared a few words about it above in response to sirensanssmile!

Take your time, complete your response and do state what and how you like this discussion to go. Also, you have yet to prove the first and the basic point, it’s still due on you i.e. How this man’s action is justified and condoned according to Quran (Islam)!?

You are welcome kamran :)
"What I'm saying is a close Islamic culture IS a bad environnement"
I think no one is denying here that nations like Iraq are bad environnement but they are not bad *because of Islam* but because there everyone is illitterate and there's a mysoginist culture who twists the Quran just to prove women are rubbish. The Quran, the Bible, whatever, are subjected to interpretation so if you want to prove a bad point you can twist it as you like. In Italy, the Catholic country, in the last centuries they used the Adam&Eve story from the bible just to prove women are inferior and should obey man, but they forgot obviously the lesson of Jesus "everyone is equal". I don't know the Quran well but there are certainly parts who can be interpreted in a mysogynist way, but it's clearly stated that a man SHOULD TREAT WELL WOMEN so the man from this article IS NOT a real Muslim.

According to the Quran, a woman's primary role is to be an obedient wife. The Quran puts men in charge of women.

Women are generally only valued for their ability to breed and be obedient. A woman who refuses her role is ostracized.

According to the Quran, a man can physically discipline his wife, which is probably why that man believed he had to right to kill his wife. She was his property.

According to the Quran, men and women are segregated, because women are seen as being too tempting to a Muslim man, who is so weak he can't be in the presence of a woman without thinking impure thoughts. So, the result is that the burden are place one women to NOT provoke men, hence being covered from head to toe in a misguided sense of modesty.

According to the Quran, a woman's testimony is worth half than a mans.

Contact with a woman makes a man "impure" so he must bathe after touching her.

According to the Quran, a woman inherits only a 3rd of what a man inherits. The "official" reason is that a man is required to support the house, but at any rate, this leaves a woman at the mercy of her husband economically, and explains why women in the Muslim world are rarely financially independent.

IF the woman leaves her husband she has to repay her dowry. The money she brings to the marriage is traditionally used to furnish the home, so usually these women end up with very little means. And, as a woman needs her husband's permission to even leave the house, even if she wanted to leave an abusive husband, she must have his permission first.

Catch-22 anyone?

According to the Quran, a woman cannot refuse her husband sexual intercourse, except that she is sick, but a man has no obligation to his wife. He only has to consummate the marriage. In fact, all the sexual power is in the hands of the man. He can refuse his wife sex if he is mad at her, but the woman must be at the man's beck and call whenever, and where ever.

According to the Quran, a man is entitled to have up to four wives, provided he can "afford" them. In this way women become "equity" because the richer a man is the more women he can keep. So this merely places women even further in the role of "property".

So much for the "rights" of women in Islam.

These rules of the Quran make it pretty obvious why this man thought he had to right to kill his wife. She wasn't obedient and she didn't get his permission before she left him.

Hello Marie37,

First of all, welcome to mylot. I do hope that your experience here will be brighter than your avatar!

I had heard that thieves and cowards hide behind masks, offline or online, and I do see it a lot, more and more!

I would admit that I haven't seen many twisted, ill-informed, misguided or, if I may say, ignorant posts like what you have shared here.

Not only your comment is out of line with this discussion, bringing in all that is not directly relevant to the point I discussed, but it also shows that you have not bothered to read beyond what you are fed with from religious thugs.

Even though you have allowed yourself to be exploited by the religious thugs, even though you have brought your own twisted interpretations, even though you pretend to have knowledge of Quran, you haven't yet given anything that proves against my point that there is nothing in Quran or Islam that would recommend or even condone the actions of this man!

Be brave, show your true identity, show that you have really read the Quran in it's entirety and have the knowledge more than what religious thugs allow you to have and then come back. May you see the brighter days! Amen!

bigbird999, I wish you had limited your response to the first part only. The second part was nothing but inappropriate and uncalled for. I have no recourse but to report it, and I hope positive contributions from your side in future!

Good Evening LadyLuna,

This story when I read it outraged me as well.

"So this may not be a religious problem, per se. Though it is definitely a cultural problem. Specifically, a male dominated society. And, I mean dominated in the absolute sense."

I think what happens when you have a male dominated society is that men lose all sense of respect for women in general. Add to that socio-economic problems, arranged stressful marriages, the inabilities to keep a wife under control, can turn men of less psychological restraint into madmen. Fanatics.

You are absolutely spot on about why this would have been stop in the states. Thank you for a voice of reason

Hello Angel,

Thanks for the kind words! Based on other discussions that you have initiated, you better than some know how riled I get when discussing thugs & bullies.

I'm going to amend my supposition ever so slightly: The problems of which we speak are not isolated to a male over female dominated society. They are found in any culture or society that allows free rein to any one group who dominates the other(s). The problem is further exaccerbate when those who enforce the laws of that society or culture support that domination.

This is exemplified by our planet's shameful history of slavery, The Third Reich, the former Soviet Union, Cuba, China, etc... When the few, or one subsection is allowed to dominate another, abandoning the principle of justice for all, and enforced by way of violent repression, then these types of atrocities will be evident.

Specifically to the Islamic culture, one cannot argue that the division of male from female in school's, religion, and even businesses, from very early ages, is largely to blame for this dynamic of dominance. If boys and girls, men and women are not allowed to intermingle and learn how to communicate and interact with the other, then the natural result will be frustration.

I find it foolhearty, and negligently unwise that a large population among this culture promotes separation until marriage, then expects the very different sexes to have any comprehension of the mind-set of the other. Even into adulthood, this separation is enforced. Specifically, separate entrances and seating areas in Mosques for men & women. Different entrances and seating areas for men and women in businesses. For example: In Saudi Arabia it is unacceptable for a woman to sit in the same area of a coffee shop as men. Heaven forbid she do so, and attempt to join in the conversation!

If males & females are allowed to learn about the other, before their pre-conceptions are cemented, then "the inabilities to keep a wife under control..." will not be as prevalent an issue. Specifically, because dialogue, compromise and a willingness to 'agree to disagree' will prevail.

The alternative is simply NOT acceptable: stabbing and igniting one's wife, cutting her nose and ears off, caning her, hobbling her, beating her in such a way that the bruises cannot be seen, etc...

Yes, education is the key, as has already been suggested in this thread. Though, education without a wide-spread, unwavering commitment toward 'justice for all' will only serve to perpetuate the problem.

Luna, as usual you have spoken beautifully and eloquently. I am honored beyond words that you grace my discussions with your wisdom.

(Sorry to be so sappy..lol)

Hear Hear... I second the sap!

Aw geeze ladies, now you've gone and made me blush.

Seriously, thanks so much for the kind words.

Oh and Snd, sappy??? Wow, I'm truly honored! Though, be careful there my friend. You wouldn't want to rust that cast iron conservative heart, now would you? I keep a can of sewing machine oil very near to my own cast iron heart, just in case. (chuckle, chuckle)

This post contains content of a mature nature. You must be Signed in or Registered to have the option to view this content.

Hello Kamran,

Thank you for sharing your disagreement, and your clarification. Your perspective is appreciated, and noted.

Again I have to disagree with him.

I believe that men and women need to be mixed to be able to learn to live together. How can you live well with someone you never learned to understand?

No mingling with family members is not conducive to understanding the opposite gender as they are family.
Understanding is the key to peace and healthy relationships and if kept separated how can you have understanding? It doesnt work and that is obvious is so many cases.

sirensanssmile,

Please read my last response, above yours, once again!

I had already read it thank you.

I truly admire your fair mindedness and your unwillingness to let anger get the better of you. All I ask is that everyone do their own research and come away with their own conclusions.

i wish I could honestly say that true of me. The fact is I do respond in outrage and anger. But then the civil part of my brain eventually takes over, and in this case, I know I have much to learn. I know that I do not understand the Islamic faith. So for me sometimes the best thing I can do is shut up and listen, ask questions and do the research as you suggest on my own.

Suffice it to say, I do not take anyones word as gospel untill I have uncovered every corner and digested what I believe is truth first.

I will tell you I know Kamran. He has passion and a burning desire to learn, and that, in the end his faith will be all the stronger because he has inked out every possibility. I for one am willing to hear him out. Let him show me why he says what he says, why he believes what he believes, then go find for myself those principles.

We all learn more from each other if the anger is set aside. I can not learn where there is chaos. I tahnk you for giving me the opportunity :))

LMAO i think I am going back to my corner where the girls are talking boobs :)) that is so much easier to understand!