Alternative history

If Hitler had not invaded Russia we would now have a Europe under the domination of a German totalitarian government. Britain would have been forced to capitulate in 1940/41 and would now probably be a satellite of that regime,

America would still have had a war with Japan and would very likely have won that war so we would now have three superpowers. America, the German European empire, and the Russian/Soviet empire, all of which would have nuclear weapons. The Germans were working on developing atomic weapons in the 1940's and if the war had ended in 1940/41 there would have been nothing to stop that.

The American atomic weapons program would probably have gone on much like present history, so that the Pacific war would be brought to an end with the use of atomic bombs on the Japanese mainland. The Soviets might still have collapsed in the early 1990's, but that would not change the general situation much.

Having said all that though, it's not a scenario that is likely to have come about because as far as we can tell, it was always the intention of Hitler to attack the Soviets as he saw territories of European Russia as the "Living Space" that he believed the German people needed. I think that would only have not happened if Hitler himself had not come to power, but that as they say, is a horse of a different colour.

We speculated that Hitler talked Japan out of agression toward the U.S. and limited their expansion into China and the Far East, tho they did take over the Phillipines, it was more of a pushing the U.S. out rather than by force.

Switzerland, Spain and Ireland remained neutral, and independent. Yes, England fell, but still resisted, there were continuing resistance, in fact, in most of the occupied countries, just much more underground.

Because the war ended in 1942, with Germany in control over most of Europe, they didn't develope the Bomb in any of the 3 or 4 mega powers (counting Japan) and, actually the U.S. was probably the weakest of the 3, mostly still free because it was too hard to bother invading. Russia still watched Germany and Japan from its two sides, and was mostly still independent because someone had Hitler's ear that said, "Look what invading Russia did for Napoleon - don't fall into that trap."

Oh, another alternant history is the S. M. Stirling's Island on the Sea of Time books - wonderful!

Yes, I've read all three of "The Island" books and I would love to see him write another. There were several loose ends that could be the basis of another novel, maybe set several years further on.

Off hand, I'm not sure of Japan's motives for attacking America. But they were in a phase of aggressive expansion, having invaded China in the late 30's, (my father was actually in China at that time in the British Army.) I believe though, that the main reason behind Japanese aggression at that time was the perceived need for direct control of resources that Japan did not have available in the home islands. Oil and Rubber principally. The Japanese military considered it unacceptable that potential enemies had control over these strategic raw materials and in a strictly military sense, they were right.

As for someone "having a word in Hitlers ear"... He demonstrated time after time his capability for ignoring advice given to him and he was not above ordering the execution of those who opposed him - I'd cite Erwin Rommel as an example of that and the tragedy of General Von Paullus and an entire German army Corps which was needlessly destroyed at Stalingrad because Hitler refused to listen to the advice that he was being given.

So, no, I don't think that he would have been persuaded not to attack Russia, and if he did not have to station a substantial garrison in France to keep the French down and to guard against a British invasion of the continent, he might well have had the manpower to reach his objectives which was to occupy Russia up to what he called the AA line. Basically all the territory of European Russia on a line between Archangel and Astrakhan and using the line of the Volga as a defensive line.

His main problem though was he seriously underestimated the Russians. He regarded them as barbarians and the German treatment of Russian civilians and POW's was appalling, POW's were herded into concentration camps with little shelter or food and literally millions died of starvation there. Civilians were shipped en mass into Germany to work as slave labour in the German war industry. Papers captured after the war showed that Hitler also had planned to treat Britain in the same way if he had managed to occupy us.

Well, there were several differences we proposed, one, he "invited" the Jews to leave and most of them took him up on it, settling in South America mostly. Hitler wasn't quite as insane as he was here. His treatment of the British was brutal since they all pretty much resisted. The Irish and Spanish, while neutral, were acting as an underground to help people escape from England and France. Portugal was also neutral, and given the protection of Spain, was more openly friendly to the opposition to the Germanized Europe.

I keep hoping Stirling will continue with more stories, but so far he's been doing the modern world post the shift - and I don't care as much for those books.

Yes, we would resist - giving in without a real fight was never the British way.. Thanks for your comments, it's been interesting to read them.

Absolutely, we realized that the British would never submit.

Fact is that while the Normans "conquered" they were rather subverted into being British after a while - kind of like what the Chinese did to their conquerers.

That's what happens when a minority take over a majority. They will eventually be assimilated. This happened to the English who settled in Ireland, they eventually became "more Irish than the Irish".

I'll add also that even if the Japanese had not attacked America, they would still have attacked the British possessions in the Far East because with the defeat and occupation of the British homeland, they would have seen that region as being vulnerable, and also as I mentioned above, they wanted the Rubber and other raw materials that the region produced.

A Japanese invasion of India would also be very likely as that was what they tried to do in the present history. Also, it is likely that Egypt and the Suez canal would have fallen to the Italians as without support from home, our forces there would not have been strong enough to resist them, even given there generally poor war performance. (Mussolini decided to join in the air attacks on Britain and sent a squadron or two of bombers, I don't have the figures to hand, but very few of them managed to survive the first encounter with the RAF)

Another interesting possibility if Suez had fallen into the hands of the Axis, would be a joint German/ Italian expeditionary force for the invasion of India. Given that the Germans would have had access to the shipping of the British merchant marine, that would not be an impossible scenario.

We did see Japan attempting to occupy India, but, while they did occupy most of the far East, they didn't manage to parts of western China, Mongolia, and most of India, just because they were getting spread too thin to manage more land. And the British/Indians did receive support from Australia.

We saw the British Royals living in Canada and Charles, rather than a playboy, being an admired leader.... well, hope springs eternal...

Charles is no Playboy and I think that he'll make a good King when the time comes - he's waited long enough.

If they did not have to fight a Pacific war against the United States, they might have had the manpower to mount a succesful invasion of India. They would also have certainly gone on to invade Australia using Papua New Guinea as a staging area to the north, and the Solomons on the Pacific side to launch a two pronged attack on the east and west coasts. PNG saw bitter jungle fighting as the Australians fought to stop them from pushing through to the south coast of PNG.

Well, as I said, there were differences. Japan was more interested in solidifing their conqured resources than over streaching their man power.

And I have to say that Charles looks the part of the playboy from this side of the pond. But you are right, he has waited a long time - after all Elizabeth became queen the year I was BORN! That puts her on the throne for 55 years!

The library of Alexandria has achieved almost legendary status and most people think that it was destroyed in a single episode. That's not the case. Part of the library's books where destroyed during the siege of Alexandria by Julius Caesar, but that was only part of the library, another large part was destroyed when the temple of Serapis, (which was being used as a secondary book store), was destroyed by the Christians. More was lost in subsequent centuries.

It was not the only great library of antiquity though, the library of Pergamon was older and at least as extensive as that of Alexandria, but again that was destroyed during the chaos of the 5th - 7th centuries AD which saw many ancient cities destroyed or reduced to a shadow of there former self through repeated raids and invasions by Goths and Vandals who between them pretty much trashed the ancient world in the central and eastern Mediterranean.

I don't think that it has much use, though I suppose that it could be said that analysing the events of the past might help us to understand what is happening now better and to avoid mistakes that have been made in the past. It might have been better for Hitler (but worse for the rest of us) if he had studied previous invasions of Russia and how those worked out. Not just Napoleons famous invasion, but the lesser known Swedish invasion of the previous century which ended in a crushing Swedish defeat at Poltava.