NO touching! The zero tolerance rule in USA middle school  

I do understand the concept of appropriate touch! As the mother of two grown children and a leader of youth at our church I am aware that there are those that don't follow the rules but this regulation of no touching is just plain stupid. The kids need to learn the difference between the two types; good and bad and THAT needs to be inforced! This is a clear case of throwing the baby out with the bathwather in my view!
In our age of complete political correctness we have all lost our ever living minds......

Again you are thinking in terms of ideal situations but the majority of kids are really aggressive and the bigger they get the more harm they can do. Things that start out innocent have a way of escalating and rules like this exist for a reason.

Then we are failing our kids...something I have thought for a very long time.
I have four brothers...big guys all of them. They never touched someone inappropriately and neither have my many neices,nephews,kids,or my husband for that matter.
If you cannot control your kids in your invirniment then the rules need to be changed to support you as a teacher so that you can...but a no touching rule will not help anything...it only puts a temporary stop gap on a bigger issue...and you well know it.

sorry environment....

The problem is that the teachers and administrators have very little control over the kids. Kids are so desensitized most of the disciplinary action the schools take doesn't even phase them and when you meet some of the parents...

At my school things are a bit different but we still have our share of anger management problems. We try to teach kids to make better choices but it is very difficult. A little kid today told me this other little girl was his girlfriend. That used to be an innocent thing at that age but these kids are not that innocent anymore.

I have seen schools where even little kids were just out of control. If you live in a small town with a closeknit community where people teach their kids to be respectful you are all very lucky.

I do feel lucky and I didn't mean to say that you are the one to blame. It's the whole thing in general. We are all failing our future when we don't find a way to address this complicated problem. It takes parents, administrators and the public at general to fix this mess....

It's just such a massive and wide-spread problem. I was talking with another teacher today who was having some trouble with students in her class and to me she just needed to be a bit firmer with them and "say it like she meant it."

She said a kid was eating in class and ignored her when she told them to get rid of what they had. I don't do that. I either tell them to bring it to me or I take it from them. She wasn't comfortable with taking something out of a child's hand. Keep in mind these are kids between 2nd and 4th grades; not that hard to intimidate into doing what you tell them. She had her reasons but she has a big classroom problem when her authority is not respected.

I can just look at most of mine and it is usually enough. Then there is a process and if they can't make it with all the second chances they go to detention. I only send the ones who really don't want to go. The ones who try to get put out I make suffer in the room. Usually by boring them to death in a corner somewhere.

Kids have to have limits but you can't spend all your time managing them either. I guess all of this is to say the schools and administrators all overwhelmed. The parents, who get younger all the time, need parenting classes and retraining so that when the kids come to school the lessons will be reinforced. It just doesn't happen.

You're right about it not being just the school's problem..the thing is; we've taken the ability to punish away...and it has caused dire consequences in our society. When and where did we get the idea that somehow punishing our children was a capital offence? And why? Don't we have consequences if we drink and drive? When we rob and steal? When we murder? We need to teach kids before it gets to those points before they do something awful....if they learn rules now when they're young we won't have to do this kind of stupid stuff in school....

Well, punishment isn't all that effective.

I think there is a marked difference between discipline and punishment. Punishment doesn't teach anything and eventually the kid will become desensitized. I am assuming you are talking about spanking. While it is true many of us who are adults today were not scarred by being spanked, I am increasingly finding myself in agreement with those who advocate against it.

I deal with kids who don't have enough positive reinforcement (which is why though the no touching is a bit extreme, in the absence of something better I would probably support it) and I don't think that do as I say, not as I do is effective. If I don't want kids in my family or at work to solve their problems by hitting then I have to lead by example.

The slogan at my school is "make a better choice." I use cooperative games and activities that promote self-esteem, team work, fair play, awareness, anger management and so forth. You would be amazed how quicly kids get on the bandwagon and try to convince the troublemakers to do the right thing.

The only problem is that many of them go home to emotional rollercoasters and nightmarish community situations. Where is the balance? Little kids aren't equipped for that and by the time they are in middle school they are tough, aggresive survivalists.

Last year at least once a month someone had a family member being killed. Only one of those deaths was an accident. A kid from one of my classes lost an older sibling to violence. One child would act out because his father was incarcerated. I had never experience anything like that and it was an additional drain in a situation that is often emotionally exhaustive. Imagine the effect of all that trauma on children. (Down here they have the added burden of teh Katrina factor)

Education used to be a privelege. Now the majority of kids in most schools are barely literate. Teacher attrition is an epidemic all over the country. You almost need a magic wand to attack this problem.

My students are fortunate to attend classes in the environment that they do but all schools are not created equal and all teachers don't have the vision.

No I wasn't talking about spanking but on that subject I have supported it with my kids as well as when I was young. I don't think that is the problem. Whether to punish or discpline or not is just a small part of the problem. When I said we are all failing the system I meant that we aren't allowed any kind of free reign to be what we are...teachers,nurturers,parents. Someone is always trying to tell us how not to be but no one wants to admit the real problem is that little Johnney or little Janiey might get their feelings hurt and "Oh my gosh we can't have that" and the parents sue. OR...we are afraid Johnney will come to school with an ak47 and fix the problem he has HIS way...or we are afraid that we will get sued by the fellow parent that thought we were too tough on Johnney and therefore it's OUR fault that their kid got shot.
I am heartedly sick of the whole mess....You apparently work in a hostile work enviornment from the way it sounds. I commend you on trying and you are totally right...these kids are probably a mess. If family life is awful and they live with it day in and day out it is a real problem for all.
But to take away the one bit of humanity that MIGHT make a difference is sheer stupidity. You say these kids are desensitized by their home life. Well I say school should be a haven and we as Americans should insist on better schools,a better system for these problems. I would insist that to be a human first is not only my right but also the right of the kid that needs the hug the very most....

I think it is important for kids to occasionally get their feelings hurt. I don't think it is ok for teachers to be malicious or sadistic about it though. Because we are supposed to have our kids model good behavior I am not supposed to use "shut up" in the classroom. But what do you do when a second grader has pushed you to well beyond the limit and all the acceptable classroom managemant techniques have failed?

I say shut up. They look at me in shock and I say "that's right, you heard me. Polite wasn't working for you so let's see how you like rude."

In other instances they get their feelings hurt but they get over it. How can they learn from a mistake if we sweep the mistake under the rug and reward them? I think like everything it is a question of balance. Sometimes shock value is effective.

Totally....that is why I am not against spanking in the home provided it's done in the right context. Some would not agree but I have to say that unless the consequences are dire enough then some kids just don't get it.

Consequences really are the key and they have to be appropriate.

Absolutely but what is going on with our world that we find all this political correctness in everything we do?!
I want safe kids as much as anyone...this isn't about safety. It's about not wanting to have to deal with it so they just ban everything so the adult won't get sued or because the system is just getting too lazy to address the real problem.

Hey Blue,
You hit on something that has been bugging me for a very long time! I too do not think the video game or music or movies promots crime...I think lack of parental involvement in our kids does!! And on the subject of adults not touching kids...I don't agree with you...to a point. I think that people should touch people!!
I cannot believe that a teacher should not be able to hug a child on the playground that got hurt or to confort a person that lost a friend. I do know the dangers of pediphiles and I do know that their are those that want to hurt our kids but the answer is more screening with these jobs and a complete zero tolerance for pedephiles...we are too easy on the real criminals in this country.

In our country it seems that we are losing the battle with people with common sense against the ones that have none I'm afraid....

I don't think it's just in your country, my friend. We're all losing the battle! It's the way life is panning out because of all the stupid laws that are being passed. One bit of good news for the UK tonight though is that the politicians, including Gordon Brown are taking a wage freeze, to help support the common people! Wow!!!

Wow....did that happen because of the chewing out by the Parliment guy? I can't remember his name but he sure made an impression here in the US!

I don't know quite who you mean, but it's led by Gordon Brown! Here is a Times newspaper report clip, from Phillippe Norton http://www.timesonline.co...

Gordon Brown has imposed a pay freeze on all Government ministers to send a message of restraint to public sector workers at a time of increased economic uncertainty and rising inflation.

Downing Street said that the decision that ministers would forgo their pay rises this financial year was announced by the Prime Minister at today's Cabinet meeting and agreed by all those around the table. Secretaries of State approved the decision on behalf of their departmental ministers, who will also be affected.

The gesture will be matched by David Cameron, leader of the Opposition, and those senior Conservatives who are on the ministerial payroll.

Mr Brown has also rejected a recommendation from a review into Westminster pay that would have seen MPs receive an additional £650 “catch-up” payment on top of their annual pay rises for each of the next three years.

The guy I was talking about it Daniel Hannan and I started another discussion on it here. I think he's amazing and had a lot of comoon sense.....this article is interesting that you have isn't it?

Yes, I saw the other discussion. I admire DH for telling things as he sees them and not being afraid to voice his opinion, but on the whole, I feel he's a troublemaker out to gain the best end for himself... nobody else. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating, if anybody ever swallows his front and votes him in, that is!

I like your comments and I did respond to them....I am glad to have someone on the "inside" as it were....

I'm not on the inside, really but I am skeptical about a politician who does nothing but put down members and leaders of his own party. I'm sorry, but that doesn't wash with me, my friend.

I totally understand....but you also have to see our point here in the US....we love that someone is saying what we want to hear....which is "Quit Spending" even though it's not applied to our situation...

I can understand that. Ok, so what he says satisfies a lot of people in your country, but he yet has to show that he means what he says. I trust politicians very little... they very rarely "do" what they profess they will, and I haven't seen any indication that this guy is any different to all the rest, apart from the fact that he's not afraid to get up and say what he wants to. He would do a lot better if he "showed" concern for the general public, rather than tearing apart other ministers, in public. That's the way I look at it anyway.

Well you have me there...I don't trust them either....but he is at least saying what I want to hear right now anyway...and it really doesn't matter...no one in the democratic side will listen to him in the states anyway.....

Well, I've got news for you, my friend. Nobody much here listens to him either, or those that do, probably don't believe! If you watched that clip carefully, you would have seen that even Gordon Brown, who was under attack, had to laugh! That about says it all, don't you think?

I think most would laugh if they were a little imbarrased don't you? I do that anyway. I just hope we get someone here that actually means the things that they say and actually says the things this Hannan said....it would be a breath of fresh air in a congested political arena of our time...

It may have been embarrassment, but I suspect more that he knows the guy's track record, and was thinking the same as I, that he's not worth listening to if he doesn't have the power to act on what he says.

That may well be true.....

This is a perfect example of the left wing extremests that somehwow we can make the world perfect for our kids and in the meantime destroy them with rules. All in the name of political correctness.....all in the name of safety.
The world isn't safe...it never will be. They should be teaching kids how to think for themselves instead of trying to protect them FROM themselves....

Me too....it makes me want to run up the local school and hug everyone...child and adult alike...

So your willng to enstill fear instead of trust? To plant the seed of doubt in your kids that touching is somehow wrong? I think that will do more to damage a kid than just about anything in this situation.
As for knowing how to tell...what about rigorous training,screening of our teachers,doctors etc? What about teaching a kid how to fend for themselves? How about a zero tolerance for abuse? We are too lax on child abusers,pedephiles. We ar too lax on all criminals....we need to figure out who the real culprit is in this kind of a situation is...it's not the kids wanting to be kids that's for sure!

Isn't that the truth?!! We are so involved with keeping the world perfect for our little darlin's that we forget that we CAN'T keep them totally safe. And most people in this day and age find that unthinkable....even though we lived through all the things that they are taking away from their kids now....it's so sad really....

Actually there are two female principals in this school who started it and according to the news they are enforcing it too...horrible isn't it?
I do know kids need to learn to be appropriate with human touch...but this is PART of growing up....learning these things.....

Angela, I think you really hit a couple of nails on the head. Yes I do think that this school is just being lazy and I think this will cause serious issues for our future with kids that don't learn the value of human touch in their lives....