do you really care about gay marriage?

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NO, my dear; I'm not assuming anything... I believe what The Bible says and that's my prerogative,whether anyone else thinks or believes otherwise, BUT there's more, because even if there were no God (!?) nature itself shows clearly that heterosexuality if the only way that reproduces!!!

2) How can anyone think that God "created us all for who we are" AND STILL go against HIS rule??? I don't understand that, but maybe ... you know... I'm thick. Or maybe we're talking about different gods.

3) Then you offer me examples of five year olds ... poor children ... poor examples ... THEY'RE CHILDRENFOR GOD'S SAKE!!!
The way I understand it, PARENTS are supposed to set the example!!! (poor examples that we are with all the treason, divorces and all that)

4) HEY, did I say ANYTHING about not accepting people for what they chose to do with their lives??? I have no idea where you read that but, sorry for you, you're sadly mistaken if that's what you chose to assume!!! Do whatever you do, but don't even TRY to make me do it!!!

5) And where or when did I even mention ANYTHING about telling my children they can or cannot be something or other, OR be with someone or another... NO, friend (loosely) you've been infested with the same kind of "political correctness" that's making everything incorrect by seeing things that are not there and presuming what you wish to see and hear in order to promote your disconcerted agenda. I have nothing to do with those things.

I think it's rather odd that you should invoke GOD and Jesus when you ignore ALL HIS precepts. I didn't and don't!!!

well kids these days know much more then back in the days. kids these days know so much more then what people see or what to know

I KNOW, Yankee, and that's because the rest of us have failed them. We should be sorry and repentant instead of complacent and satisfied.

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Thanks but your interjection does not solve the issue for me because as far as I'm concerned it is a MORAL issue, not strictly a religious, legal or political one, but the governments of the world and religion should HELP people to see reason. In fact, even science has a contribution to make in this respect and, as I said before, a simple observation of nature should show us what's right.

I have had MANY homosexual friends and acquaintances, and I'm willing to accept them for what they are, but I'm strictly opposed to let them make me think that it's normal to be as they are, and they have been willing to accept my opinion as well. In fact, we thank each other for our exchange of ideas.

My problem with this issue is that if homosexual marriage is legalized, we will be telling future generations that it is normal to break the laws of nature. If we stopped being so danged selfish, and started thinking of others as much, (such as our succesors) maybe this question would be simplified.

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mrbluey, let me just say thanks, first of all for the link, which I followed and found such a very well written pamphlet. It's not often you run into those! But this was. So thanks.

Second, let me also say, and repeat actually, that I also disagree with any type of injustice practiced against homosexuals, ESPECIALLY from the religious, spiritual aspect.

However, let me add that regardless of his skillful penmanship, the revered Dr White does NOT convince me because, 1) The Bible IS NOT strictly about GOD but about GOD's relationship (interaction) with HIS Creation (wider theme, isn't it?) AND 2) Dr White's skilfull manipulation of that first misconception enables him to simply disregard the REVEALED FACT of God's displeasure with unrepented sin and HIS Justice, which White at least recognized by slightly mentioning that we SHOULD let GOD be Judge. We're not to judge but leave that to the authorities, who will have to answer according to their faithfulness or lack thereof in The Last Day. And by the way, as I understand it, without repentance there's no forgiveness, so that if someone simply accepts and continues in their sin, whatever that might be, there's no forgiveness.

3) I think it's also interesting the way that the Rev Dr White manipulates history to suit his needs because it's true that religion has committed many atrocities through the ages, but REALLY! Does this mean then that there are no such things as sins and that none of us needs the Redemption of God's Only Son's DEATH and Resurrection? You mean HE wasted HIS life and Blood?
Hmmmmmm.... I won't buy that! And won't apologize for it either!

Let love reign; but that includes speaking the truth and without anyone's explanation the Bible record speaks clearly against homosexuality, just like it does murder, adultery and stealing.

I have a link for you too, which I have offered to other people as well, because there are two sides to every coin.
http://www.exodus-international.org/

Peace.

Sorry for the (very) late reply.
Thank you for your fair attempt at pointing out the flaws you see in what I have brought up.

Yes, I do agree with what you have said, that the Bible is about God's interaction with His creation. [Neither does Dr. White deny this. Though he states that the Bible is about God, surely it can be a fair type of perspective to see his statement of the Bible as being a book, a record, the only definitive accurate store of information about God. And this includes His interaction with His creation.]

I quote: "Dr. White's skillful manipulation of that first misconception enables him to simply disregard the revealed fact of God's displeasure with unrepented sin and His Justice..."
I truly believe Dr. White never did mention otherwise (against the definite fact that God IS unhappy with sin unrepented). Speaking of which, have you read the text carefully? Did you consider objectively the facts Dr. White did put forth, that homosexuality was not firmly and surely banished as a sin in the Bible? If that were true, and considering it is, and homosexuality, particularly in its practical sense in our time and culture, is not a sin in God's eyes, would there have to be any matter about unrepented sin?
Your entire argument seems rather based upon the unjustified assumption (which Dr. White has already attempted to dismiss) that homosexuality is certainly a sin.

'Without repentance there is no forgiveness'.
Without a doubt. But then again, are you pointing inherently to homosexuality as the implied sin? Have you forgotten that man has innumerable sins, and that none of us are exceptions? Dr. White never did state that 'without repentance, God will forgive'. Because that is known and irrelevant. Dr. White was showing readers that homosexuality in our time and culture is not, and certainly not DEFINITELY, a sin. He did not make mention of sin in general. All true and faithful Christians are rightfully deserving of God's forgiveness. Henceforth, homosexuals alike. That we agree upon.
However, what I say is crippled about your argument is the fact that you did assume that homosexuality is a sin (this especially implied in your attack on Dr. White's arguments). Bear in mind that we indeed are no worthy judges, and that we may never assume the roles of will-executors as we, in our beliefs, may think we are entitled, or even called to do so.

No, of course there are sins. I pray you, please show me one instance of when Dr. White stated, in such audacity, that religion, having committed such horrors, is an agent of total injustice, and that religion must be totally dismissed because of this. See Dr. White's argument, and his urgent warnings against such misinterpretations. Of course we do need Jesus! Don't you see that all Dr. White was saying in his entire argument was that homosexuality should not be considered with absolute confidence (and brazen hatred) a sin, especially in the time and culture of today, as opposed to the time of the Bible? Forgive me in saying that I believe you have been a little brash with your skepticism and your rather overdone attention to how words have been put forth. When you want to see the true truth in a matter, you must never back your own judgment with your subjective opinions, or it would be theoretically impossible to win you over in an argument.

Speak the truth. In all sincerity I say, the Bible did speak clearly against homosexuality. In that time and that culture. Do you dispute the very apt example of using pigskins to play with being a sin? If you do, why not speak about it? Why not go against it? Homosexuality and playing with pigskins were both mentioned in Leviticus. Why not rise against it? Can you tell me then, after having ruled out that oft-used excerpt of the Bible as a point of reference to what sins are, how homosexuality is then clearly made forth to be a sin?

Jesus' blood is so pure and precious. It is for those who are willing to take it. Don't you see? Why state that anyone is saying otherwise? And why highlight homosexuality as a particular sin, as though homosexuals are guilty of some exceptional cause of shame, since Dr. White's argument was meant to prove otherwise? If you wish to prove Dr. White's argument flawed or untrue, the whole principle of homosexuality being or not being a sin is what you will have to go with, not such dreadful lengths as actually saying Dr. White challenged the integrity of Jesus' redeeming love.

Murder, adultery and stealing. Timeless crimes. Homosexuality. Once outlawed, now unspoken against. The Bible's words teach against such evils, evils which harm and degrade life and love. Why do you, then, categorize homosexuality along with these evils? Don't you see how the words of Leviticus can be taken to accordance with significance to that time-period only? Don't you understand what Dr. White said about the practical disadvantages homosexuality particularly held in those times? Again, take the example of the pigskins. See, sometimes God's words must be comprehended for their apparent importance to smaller things. God cares for us in all things; things which might be considered less than significant to some of us, such as our health, perhaps. Homosexuality, being placed with other such technical laws in the Bible, was similarly outlawed for such little reasons. God loves His people so, that He protects us against the most minor threats. If you read Dr. White's pamphlet, he gave several excellent reasons for homosexuality being banned - for instance, the fact that Israel was struggling to fend for itself, and it needed a population which grew in constant strength.

I hope you will take the time to read it through once again in a good, unbiased time and manner. I hope you'll find the facility to see the truth. Be truly objective, and when you have found a better heart to understand this principle, you really will accept these people.

Bless you!

... they do not realize that God loves us all, made us all and does not care, either!!

What a poor excuse! IF there is a God... WHAT A RIDICULOUS THOUGHT that HE would not care!!!

Why don't you just leave GOD out of your argument and join those who don't believe and just want to bash religion so they can push their own agenda??

Isn't honesty the best policy any more???

One of the things that bothers me most is this hypocritical ambivalence of using religion for one's own benefit, WHICH IT ISN'T!!!

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nana, I sincerely hope that I have not expressed myself in a way as to make anyone think that I am wanting to bash homosexuality in any way. People make all kinds of choices, right ones and wrong ones, and this is an issue in which they decide the direction they wish to go. People have to decide whether there's even a Highwer Power or what to make of IT, and even whether to seek the truth behind it... those are all choices we must make, but NO ONE should blind themselves to the possibilities that exist, which is why I said in my response "IF there is a God..."
I believe there is one, but to try to impose that belief on someone else is ridiculous and irrational, so we must look at the whole picture and, like I said before and again, nature shows us that homosexuality is NOT a normal thing so that it should not be endorsed as normal, and MOST IMPORTANT, is that we should be thinking of our succesors in a selfless way so that we will not pass on to them the idea that it is, contradicting nature and therefore bringing a worse doom on this planet and their generation. My concern is NOT for my opinion.
And let me add that I recognize the complexity of the problem, because homosexual couples want the benefits granted to the heteros, but maybe the legal system can work something else out. Marriage as an institution already has enough of a burden.

Yes, I did misunderstand and I apologize.

I just feel then, as you, that people put too much of their concern in other people's lives and choices. No harm, no foul!! LOL

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