Gun Owners ~Sweet Victory ~ House Passed Gun's Allowed In National Parks  

I haven't looked at the legislation yet, but it would seem to me that state laws would still apply. What are the laws reguarding guns in these areas? If you feel that guns still shouldn't be carried in these areas and you live in one of those states, than the thing to do is work with in your state to get the laws changed, gun ownership is still, by the constitution, a matter of state law.

I haven't read it either, x, but I believe this legislation is designed to override the exemptions to the concealed weapons laws that cover the national parks. I did read something in the Palm Beach Post (since I'm in Florida now) a while ago that blasted this bill because it would force Florida to allow weapons inside the Everglades National Park, putting park employees and visitors at risk. Florida, as well as Maryland, currently issue concealed carry permits but weapons are not allowed in the national parks even with a permit. So, as far as I know, the federal government is taking this exemption away from the individual states.

If the bill attempts to usurp state laws, than it is a bad bill, though I don't want to see any state restrict firearms myself, it is still a matter for that state to decide.

I don't believe the national parks are controlled by the individual states, x, but I could be wrong. As far as I know they're federally controlled.

Your right, they are and it is a shame. I can't stand that nearly 1/5 of my state's land is under federal controll.

Then be glad you're not in Alaska where the vast majority of the state is under federal control. That's one of the reasons the federal government puts so much money into that state. They practically own it.

"Maybe next we'll be allowed to carry guns into restaraunts. Or maybe banks... "
I already can, in fact, I can walk in to a police station or even my state's house of represenatives building with a pistol strapped to my belt. Things like that are a matter of state law, not federal.

I can, too. In fact, my husband wears his weapon in plain sight at the chopper shop and I carry mine when I make bank deposits after the bank is closed.

The only problem I have with your viewpoint about the state parks is the increased risk to others by people who are not as responsible as I'm sure you are but who also hold a concealed carry permit. Bars, for instance, can have a "no weapons" policy because they are private businesses but people do drink in the state parks, which are public places. We used to have a camper when the kids were growing up and I can tell you that a lot of drinking goes on when some folks are camping. In my example above of Assateague Island, those ponies will come right up to your campsite because, even though you're not supposed to feed them, people do. I can foresee someone who has been drinking all day firing off a shot in the campground to scare off a pony (or three) and unintentionally hurting either the pony or someone else.

Thoug a bar is a place for the public to gather, it is still a private business. As to your other points, if a person who is carrying with out meeting the requirements, they are alrady breaking the law, why would more laws make them obey the law?
Accidents happen ,that cannot be denied, but we can apply the same thought process to nearly any other potentialy dangerous scenario, like driving.

"As to your other points, if a person who is carrying with out meeting the requirements, they are alrady breaking the law, why would more laws make them obey the law?"

I never suggested that anyone was not meeting the requirements for carrying a weapon...my issue is about safety and the general public. Does your state require you to have traing in the use of a firearm before you can get a permit unless you have military certification? Florida does. Why? To ensure that anyone who carries a concealed weapon knows how to use it safely. Does your state have any requirements for securing your weapon in your home if children are there? Mine does...again as a safety measure.

You know me well enough, x, to know that I will defend to my last breath an American's right to own and use a gun but that right has to be balanced with safety measures. I'm sure you also know that your line of sight is limited in any wooded area. This is not as much of a concern in a remote location but in many national parks, and especially the smaller and more heavily populated ones, allowing firearms in increases the risk to the public. It creates an unnecessary dangerous scenario in and of itself. I'm sure you know how far a bullet can travel. In Greenbelt Park you could actually fire a weapon from the campgrounds and hit someone inside of a house in Greenbelt. I believe that there should at the very least be the presumption that protection is needed before weapons are allowed in national parks out of consideration for the safety of the visitors and the park rangers.

In your case then, the state should not allow the use of fire arms there, it is with in a populated area, this is standard law in most places with fire arms. But again, it should be a matter of state law and local ordinances, not federal.
We're pretty open with our gun laws up here. To buy and own any legal rifle or shot gun, as long as you are not a fellon, one need only go to a gun store and hand them money. For a hand gun, one need only be 18 years of age and go to your local police department and apply for a permit, you may carry open or concieled. You may not carry a conceiled or loaded hand gun in a vehical. We have one of the highest rates of gun ownership in the country and have one of the lowest violent crime rates in the country. We also have an extremely low rat of gun deaths, 10 last year, INCLUDING used in crime, by police, suicide, and accidental. We actualy have more people injured by NAIL guns than by actual guns.

Interesting though how knife crime went up after your gun ban isn't it? What does that tell you? What do you think would happen if you guys enacted a knife ban?

no, we have never had a gun ban as there has never been a law allowing guns. You have to get a licence and except for farmers they are hard to get and even then they have to be locked away etc.

you had an outright gun confiscation, that restricted ownership even more, I'm suprised you don't know this......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGVAQOUi6ec
Anyway, but it's fascinating, when guns are no longer available to honest people, criminals still have them and even if they don't, they use something else, like knives, ban knives and baseball bat crime will go up.....it isn't the weapon, it's the person who wields it.

yes, that sadly is true it is the person not the item

We already have quite strict laws for knives and I wouldn't be surprised if they become more strict.

It is an offence for any person, without lawful authority or good reason, to have with him in a public place, any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except for a folding pocket-knife which has a cutting edge to its blade not exceeding 3 inches.
http://www.police-informa...

No one is taking away anyone's rights to carry a weapon in a national park. This legislation will allow weapons IN national parks which have been exempt from state concealed carry laws and, until now, able to ban them inside of the parks. So, think about this scenario. The national parks are forced to allow people with permits to bring their weapons into the parks and, sooner or later, an innocent unarmed person is accidentally shot and killed while sitting at their campsite or standing on a dock fishing. There is a public outcry about this, especially if the victim is a woman or a child and the shooter was shooting at a chipmunk. How strong do YOU think the anit-gun lobby will jump on that?

"I have a question - have there been a large number of injuries or deaths in these national parks which a gun would have prevented? Or is this just a case of gun advocates wanting to carry loaded guns in these places "just because they can"? "

Bingo Annie. Even in the Everglades National Park down here in Florida you don't hear about people being injured or killed by large gators because precautions are taken that keep visitors and park rangers safe. I really wish that someone who actually worked for the National Park Service or was related to someone who does was a member here because I'd be interested in seeing their views on this. If I worked in a park and was informed that an unknown number of visitors would now be walking around in wooded areas armed I certainly wouldn't feel that my work environment was safe any longer.

Your in luck spally, I know someone, I'll ask her when I see her later this week.

and a gator is a lot easier to escape than a pisssed off bear, couger, or a moose in rutting season.

Personally, I wouldn't want to run into a gator, a pissed off bear, cougar, or a moose in rutting season while enjoying my family picnic...lol! But, seriously, there is usually something that pushes Congress to change a current law or pass a new one so I was wondering what brought this on. I haven't heard of a sudden rash of wild animal attacks or criminals preying on innocent people at national parks. I DEFINITELY would feel quite uneasy if I worked at one of these parks and knew that there could be a bunch of drunken campers packing heat.
Annie

spalladino,Annie,
This is a very good question have there been a large number of injuries or deaths in national parks?
I don't know the the number of people shot or killed in a national park but I assume very few if any.
In my opinion because there has been no real problem with law abiding citizens having guns the govenment needs to leave thing's alone that are not broke,ROSE

I think you totally misunderstood, Rose! Why is it necessary to start allowing guns in national parks if there haven't been a large number of deaths or injuries that could have been prevented if someone had had a gun. I think you just made my point for me without meaning to...lol! Thanks!!
Annie

Annie,
Seems like it is up to each state,in my state people for 35 year's that I have lived here take guns onto national park land it is a every day thing in my part of the woods.
Like I said there has been very few death in our national forest due to a gun.
Maybe every state has there own rules and set of laws but where I live most people carry concealed weapons having concealed weapon permits,and we have the people that carry loaded guns that are not registered and they have no concealed weapon permits,I live in wild country the law is 35 miles away it takes them if they are busy in the big town 2-3 hours to get out here so most every one has some kind of gun or rifle.



http://www.washingtonpost...

"We have a Democratic president, a Democratic House and a Democratic Senate, and we're passing more gun legislation than when there was a Republican in the White House," said Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-N.Y.), a gun-control advocate. "It's disappointing."

Gun rights advocates defended yesterday's bill as an effort to give gun owners the same rights on national park land that they have everywhere else.

Advocates said they will look to find other ways to push Democrats into backing gun rights measures.

"The lessons of 1994 have not been forgotten," said Larry Pratt, executive director of Gun Owners of America, referring to the year President Bill Clinton signed an assault weapons ban into law. "The Democrats lost control of Congress after passing a gun ban."

This is how democrats and republicans Senator voted on this bill,the artical the link below say's this bill is more radical then what George W. Bush proposed.


http://www.kval.com/inter...

Democrats Yes

Baucus, Mont.; Bayh, Ind.; Begich, Alaska; Bennet, Colo.; Byrd, W.Va.; Casey, Pa.; Conrad, N.D.; Dorgan, N.D.; Feingold, Wis.; Hagan, N.C.; Klobuchar, Minn.; Kohl, Wis.; Landrieu, La.; Leahy, Vt.; Lincoln, Ark.; Merkley, Ore.; Nelson, Fla.; Nelson, Neb.; Pryor, Ark.; Reid, Nev.; Shaheen, N.H.; Specter, Pa.; Tester, Mont.; Udall, Colo.; Warner, Va.; Webb, Va.; Wyden, Ore.


Democrats No

Akaka, Hawaii; Bingaman, N.M.; Boxer, Calif.; Brown, Ohio; Burris, Ill.; Cantwell, Wash.; Cardin, Md.; Carper, Del.; Dodd, Conn.; Durbin, Ill.; Feinstein, Calif.; Gillibrand, N.Y.; Harkin, Iowa; Inouye, Hawaii; Johnson, S.D.; Kaufman, Del.; Kerry, Mass.; Lautenberg, N.J.; Levin, Mich.; McCaskill, Mo.; Menendez, N.J.; Murray, Wash.; Reed, R.I.; Schumer, N.Y.; Stabenow, Mich.; Udall, N.M.; Whitehouse, R.I.


Democrats Not Voting

"and a gator is a lot easier to escape than a pisssed off bear, couger, or a moose in rutting season."

There aren't any gators, bears, cougars or moose in the Assateague Island National Park...only ponies who could bite or give you a swift kick if you pissed one off but I haven't heard of one death by pony attack.

Again, I don't disagree that there are areas in many national parks where you should be able to carry a weapon for your own protection but I still believe that certain parks should continue to be allowed to ban them entirely due to their size and the environment. I also believe that the parks should be able to regulate the circumstances whereby you can carry or possess a loaded weapon. There's little need for loaded weapons at campsites or on guided tours/hikes lead by park rangers. I'm sure there are other examples but these are what come to mind at the moment.

I agree with you 100%, Spall. People with loaded guns at campsites is a very scary thing, in my opinion.
Annie

This is something that folks who don't camp might not have considered when thinking about how great this bill is. We had a camper years ago and used to go camping quite regularly when the kids were younger because it was fun and cheaper than staying in a motel at the beach. That's one of the reasons why I'm so fond of Assateague Island National Seashore...I've been there many times. I know from experience that a lot of people drink at the campsites and that there have been alcohol fueled arguments and actual fights between groups of campers. Would I take my family on an overnight camping trip knowing that armed strangers who were consuming alcohol could be camped nearby and I had no way of knowing? No. Would I want to be a park ranger responding to a problem at the campground knowing that someone could be drunk and armed with a deadly weapon? No. Park rangers are not law enforcement. They're not trained or expected to put their lives on the line in a gun battle when they report for work.

If there are certain areas wher a hand gun would be considered dangerous and not really needed than it should be up to the state or local laws.
and annie, what is so scary about people sitting by campfires with guns???

"...and annie, what is so scary about people sitting by campfires with guns???"
Like Spall said, there are some people that "sit by campfires with guns" and also consume too much alcohol and end up getting into fights. That can be a very deadly combination and it would be too easy for an innocent person, such as a child, to get caught in the crossfire.
Annie

Annie, why do you think that it would be any worse at national parks than anywhere else? Every day that you drive to work there are people legally carrying guns in their cars. What makes them less likely to harm an innocent than some guy in a national park?

Actually I don't think there are that many people carrying guns around in their cars in my area, legally or otherwise. Even if they are they hopefully won't be driving to work in the morning and drinking beer with a gun at their side. They're not likely to "mistake" an innocent animal or maybe a person for a dangerous predator while driving where I live.
Annie

What was "just a step toward trying to ban them in the entire country"? Who tried to ban what?
Annie

One thing that I have always been curious to know is how many people die each year from gunfire in the U.K? I have read and heard statistics on it on the internet and documentaries but I don't know if they are true or not so it would be enlightening to hear a guesstimate from a person from the U.K

59 firearms related murders in 2006-2007 and Im still looking for more up to date figures.

The figures for 2008 are out now and the number of deaths is a total of all deaths caused by firearms no matter what circumstances they occurred in. It includes accidents and suicides. In 2008 there were 42 firearms related deaths. Probably much lower than the US but we also have a much lower population.

http://www.independent.co...

what you need are the per capita statisics actualy. What is REALLY interesting is the number of knive related attacks and deaths in your country mike.

Knives are the biggest problem here by far. The Government has launched a multi million pound advertising campaign to try and get the anti knife message across. I will see if I can find the stats for deaths per 1000 of the population from firearms as I agree that they will provide a better comparison.

I could only find figures from 2006 which show 0.15 deaths from guns per 100,000 people.