What is so bad about bad people? Is it them being bad

Yes derek, you are right. It all depends upon the perception of the beholder and nothing else. Whom I see bad may be a saviour to some one else. The bad thing about a bad person is they are bad according to our perceptions. Hence good or bad cannot be explained and it can be only experienced. You can judge a person but the judgement is just yours and you may not expect everything to be universally accoladed.

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Thank you for the question..

OK, we are talking about serious crimes here and the criminals are better off being removed from society until they have proved beyond reasonable doubt that they won't re-offend, but I don't think many can prove that and so it continues. But to deal with the issue from a personal point of view...

An answer from my experience of Zen and spiritual discipline, is not easy to answer in a few words..

It is a known psychological fact that those who continue to judge and hate a criminal after that criminal has been punished (and maybe for example, in Jail or even dead), only hurts themselves.

In Zen it is said that we are one with all, and when we hold judgements of resentment and hatred, we are holding such feelings within our selves - within our nervous systems. The part of the self that is holding these feelings begins to suffer and grow ugly - we are hating part of ourselves and therefore hurting that part of ourself.

Often, the hurt goes so deeply that we cannot stop such judgements, but eventually, if we are willing, we can forgive, and it is forgiveness that provides a strong healing power. I don't see forgiveness as forgetting and ignoring the fact that a person may still be dangerous, I see forgiving as a way of giving self and other the healing that is needed.

I know it is not easy, and I have been faced with many situations that I have judged, but in my meditation, I have looked for ways of resolving such inner negative feelings. I have recognized the destructive power of such feelings.

The greatest spiritual teachers have taught about the healing power of forgiveness. They knew it was difficult, because it is not something that you can explain to another how to do. It is not really a state of "doing" at all, but a state of "being". And some situations are more difficult than others. I would say that forgiving begins with a willingness for forgiveness to happen. If we are not willing, we just carry on in the same state of consciousness.

My personal effort in Zen is not to judge, and especially not to judge even those who judge me. Not easy, but possible. I hope I have explained my point of view clearly enough. - Derek

All I can say is that it makes a wonderful reading Derek.It is so soothing.Well to be frank Derek whether a father whose daughter is raped and cut into pieces can have the same feeling I wonder.

You are right. If it was my daughter who was raped and cut to pieces, I would be horrified and would want her attackers severely punished - I couldn't help but harbour such revengeful thoughts. But as a Zen practitioner, I would know that I would be harming myself even more, and until I had grown spiritually enough, would find it very hard to forgive. But through my pain, I would know that I would need to work hard towards forgiveness, or I would carry that hatred in my heart, hurting only myself. - Derek

Thanks Derek.I really like this conversation.The is always the other side of everything.I feel like going through what you said about Zen again anyway.It is time to open up to new philosophies.See you friend.

Can the vile crimes against the innocent can be considered as good if we judge them good in that case?

I think what happens in the universe is beyond good and bad. The person who committed vile crimes usually does so because he thinks of them a good. Others however, think of them as bad. It is neither. If you believe in reincarnation, perhaps the victim in a past life, was very cruel and killed and tortured hundreds of people. It is now that person's lesson to learn about suffering to that he/she can become a better person. We don't know absolutely, because we are here to learn.

The universe is just the space in which things happen. The universe doesn't say this is good, or this is bad, it just allows these things to carry on.

For instance... is the lioness being bad when she allows her cubs to play with and torture another young animal, which dies a slow and agonizing death? If the cubs don't learn these hunting skills, they would die a slow and agonizing death of starvation because they haven't learned how to hunt properly. Is that wrong? Now we would have to choose which is right and which is wrong. Would we have the lions die or their prey? All physical things that live will die eventually.

This is what happens in Nature. We humans are part of Nature. But we can can reason and have created something called conscience as we've evolved. We weren't always so gentle though. And we still kill other species to survive.
- Derek

If the lions are evolved to the level of humans I think they will buy the food for their cubs in the supermarket and live a decent life than us.

Those good people sure includes you Beertjie.

Poor bad fellows.Victims of circumstances and surroundings.

That is a great response Friend.Very decent and fair one.

God bless those sick people.And I know a lot of people definitely know that they are bad.There cannot be any other explanation for this behavior except that they throughly enjoy being bad.That makes them really sick.Is it not so?

No dear definitely not.Who else can understand you more than me who is a barking good man.Can you hear my wife's chuckle?

I can hear her LOL

Yeah that is the basic fault with them.

The bad people including those sociopaths are not born bad with a bad wiring up there.It is the fault of the people who bring them up and the environment they grow that makes them bad.They become so tuned to it to a level of reveling on it.Poor souls.As you say they get entangled in it without any help.

That is where the right use of the rational mind comes in.Is it not so Alok?
Old fellow have simply put it as 'Look before you leap'.