Do you run when you see me here?

Paul the apostle said....it is time to stop drinking milk and desire the meat of the word...you reached that point. Good for you! Now pick up the Bible ...and start reading.:)

Well put John,
And no you are not being rude or judgmental with our church. To question is good; even important for all of us. If we don't question then we can't learn for ourselves what we need to know.
I don't think we should be sheep; I think that we should be asking all the questions in our mind in order that we may see the truth correctly and not to just take someone's word for it.

Isn't it though? I think that sometimes people of all religions have forgotten that...and it's so important whether you are a believer of God or not.
I think that respect and kindness should be the universal language for us all.....

Thanks Mike,
I do too. I just am amazed at how many people are not like us though. I mean to beat people over the head with the bible or to point fingers and laugh at those of religion is just so grade school to me.
I like everyone for the same reasons and dislike them for the same reasons as anyone that is of my faith or not.
Everyone is on the the same plane as everyone else here....we are all equal.
If I do upset some with my faith I don't mean to. I am a strong person by nature and get a little militant with my attitude sometimes.....but it's not personal.
I don't suffer fools very well and tend to take the "slaying the masses" a little seriously sometimes!

Exactly!
If we all followed the Golden Rule then things would be so much simpler wouldn't it?
And on the note if we all used the word tolerance( as you pointed out in your discussion) as it was truly meant to be then we could have a better life all around.
I just don't understand hating someone for their beliefs or using religion to hurt others....it's a foreign concept for me.

Hence the idea that we are just man and not God. This is lost to some isn't it?
When we start thinking that we are more and not like others then we can get into trouble. History is full of those examples of people who took their so called "religious" beliefs to the extreme in the hopes of obtaining power....not to be confused with religion.
But they smeared the name of God in their quest for all eternity with this behavior and now the ones of us that do believe have to live with the consequences of their actions and the reactions of the non believers.
Then we see those that can point out (correctly I might add!) that some religions and some churches are corrupt and they would be right! But that isn't the fact for us all....and still we are thrown into one large lump of humanity for everyone to say we are wrong.

I just hope that through the words here and at other places we can come together for the good of all....
I have lots of friends here that are not Christians or even believe in God for that matter. It does not matter to us at all....and in fact I think we welcome the differences in each other. We find comfort in knowing that the differences are not important after all..and that we can overcome anything that the world has to say for or against us.

hi scarlet I am Catholic too and was NOT happy with Benedict aka Joseph Ratzinger as new Pope though he is German like me. In fact before they were choosing a new Pope I though please God dont let it be him. I feared that the Church would be led back into the Middle Ages but it is not developing as bad as I thought it would.
In fact I now hope that John Paul II soon will be pronounced a saint. ........

Hi to your mom from me.

You should have been me! When I first got married my mom in law thought she had a pagan on her hands. I was born into the Foursquare church. Being pentecostal was next to the devil in her eyes.
So I became Catholic after many years and a hard look at myself and then she wanted me to behave like it was pre Vatican II...yikes!
So yeah I understand....they don't like change do they?

That's the way I am....and sighted the ones here that are not of the Christian faith. Which is fine with me. I don't judge others and never have. I try to meet them in the middle and see if we can hit some common ground in every discussion and on every subject.
But the bible thumpers do make a racket don't they? And they give us Christians a black eye every time they do the thing they like to do best; which is point fingers and judge.

something else to tell.....lol..... my husband was quite into that Evangelical Teaching when we met and I told him from the beginning, I am just reconciled with the Church and will not go back to the Evangelical movement. I can go to their services once in a while if needed but I will not go and re-join these.
He didnt only accept my point of view but when it comes to the decision which church to attend he will always choose my Catholic Church over his Protestant and he also attends our Catholic Mens Group once a month.

Isn't that funny? I wonder why he likes yours more if he doesn't accept it?
Maybe he just feels more comfortable in a church with you.

hi hornswaggled, do you mean "he will not convert" by using the term "he will not accept"?
I think that would be too early and also too much asked from him. He grew up in a normal Lutheran household and its okay with me.

I am just glad that he likes to go with me and we never have these problems others from different denominations have with one of the partners saying, I always have to come with you and you never come with me or such.

He also accepts that I made one shelf in the living room cabinet a "holy" corner of the place here with putting a Virgin Mary Statue there I bought when still single.

No the comment had more to do with your comment on his acceptance of your beliefs.
I am glad he is comfortable with his choice as you seem to be as well.
It takes all kinds to make the world and that's the way it should be.
I waited 14 yrs to become Catholic; until I realized that I was doing everything a Catholic did except take communion and confession. I loved our church and was raising our kids as Catholics. I realized that this was just a formality and that I would be fine here....and I am!
I love our church and going to church makes me happy; like I'm coming home.
We don't get to church as often as we should as my hubby's job has him working a lot of Sundays and Saturday nights.
But I read the bible and am always looking into new information on the net...and am very comfortable as a Catholic.
I know when my hubby retires we will be better at going more regular. I go on my own some and I enjoy it very much. It's a peaceful time of reflection for me.

yes same here. I hope when I can retire that I am well enough to spend lots of time then in church, at weekday masses, also helping out where needed cause thats what I dream of when I think about retirement.
As far as my husband is concerned, if he made the decision to convert its all right with me but I dont want to be the cause for such a decision. I will not ask him about it just wait and see where life takes us when it comes to churches.

I don't have any qualms about you at all....and in fact have lots of friends from very different backgrounds.
I might not believe what you believe but it's important that I treat you like I treat all...with respect! This is because everyone deserves respect and understanding. And if they don't respect me then I walk away. I don't try to change others; and I don't try to judge others....ever.

that is how i am, respect everyone no matter what, and i also try not to judge others as well

And isn't that what we all want is peace? We all want a safe, peaceful world for our kids and a quiet place to worship the way we want...and that's what I want also!
Thanks for responding to my discussion!

I'm sorry you feel that way about Catholicism and religion in general. We don't all languish in poverty and I don't believe that our religion is the richest in the world. The works that our faith does is amazing. You need to look at all we have done over the world with all countries; not just ours.
I don't think we are up to date with what the newest views are; but that is what we are.
We believe in the sanctity of all life; not just convenient life. When we talk about life we are talking about life from conception; not when a baby has have grown fully. And that has many up in arms with us. We aren't however against abortion in the event that the mother's life is in danger.
We aren't the only ones that believe that, by the way. The Buddhists and the Pentecostal churches also believe this as well as the Baptists...Christians in general are more or less against abortion from the standpoint of it as birth control.
As for contraception, let me tell you my journey into the Catholic faith.
I was a Protestant and I had been to many other churches. When I went to the church for instructions when I was to get married I was like you. I thought the church was outdated and wrong. And I didn't think that they should tell me how to live my life.
I talked to our priest about my concerns and he said this...."Do you see large families in the pews anymore?" and I answered no....He said that is because the Catholic faithful will do what they need to do and the church is not stopping them.
Publicly they don't condone contraception but privately they do realize it's happening.
Do I agree with this? No. I do not believe that the church should prevent people from eating rather than starving when it comes to this point.
But I do know the church feeds billions of people in this world too. And that is a lot more than many other religions are doing.
And it isn't "free thinkers" that make change. It's people that have a need. People that have to have a church that will meet those needs.

Mainstream religion has created a lot of human suffering over the centuries. From the acceptance of slavery to the practice of genocide -- all in the pages of the bible. And let's not forget the Dark Ages.

Even Pope John Paul admitted the role the Catholic Church played in some of the dark moments in history.

Religion does not have a good track record throughout the course of human history. All the mainstream religions are associated with bloodshed. Need I say more?

I have no doubt that there are many Christians who are playing their part in trying to make this world a better place, but many of the atrocities of the past -- based on religious dogma -- cannot be reversed. And those past injustices have not been openly spoken about and admitted.

I didn't say you all languish in poverty.

I'm saying that the very poor who don't use contraception because of the position of the church on contraception, are consigned to further human misery by having more children than they can afford to look after.

Abortion is a totally different matter, although the Church's taboo on contraception can lead to increased abortions. And what is hypocritical about the whole situation are the many cover-ups of Catholic priests who have carnally abused children. If the priests can't control their own desires, how much so the general population of Catholic countries? It's ridiculous.

Of course, there are other religions that believe as you do. As I've said: Mainstream religions do not have a good track record.

The Roman Catholic church is worth millions.

The church is made up of human beings. And the historical track record is not admirable. So, I wouldn't be interested in associating myself with any religion that has a part in human bloodshed. Such institutions should be avoided based on their past human rights records.

Current assistance from churches is laudable but it isn't an adequate substitute for past injustices and atrocities.

The churches need to make a public apology to the world for their historical acts of wickedness and corruption.

Well if you don't want to associate yourself with anything that has bloodshed then you need to remove yourself from the human race. It's not religion that caused the suffering and the bloodshed. It was humans that made that decision. Some of them associated with the church and other organizations and some on their own.
The whole idea that religion invented slavery is ludicrous! It was the norm in that time; whether you were a part of a religious sect or not. It was not the church that caused or invented it.
And we don't condone it or pedophilia any more than you or any other reasonable person does.
The church made huge mistakes in not exposing the pedophiles. They are now doing so in this new administration. But the fact remains that because of the climate of hiding them instead of ousting them to be dealt with in the church; pedophiles actually chose to become priests so they could have free reign over children. This is despicable and it's wrong and it isn't being covered up anymore.
The church is worth millions but it also gives billions away each and every year. Have you actually looked at the good that the church is doing? No you just want to lump us together with all the other so called "bad" people and organizations of the world.
Let me ask you this; when did you last do something worthwhile for someone else? Have you worked at a soup kitchen; let a homeless person into your home? Have you tithed your income to the church or organization of your choice? Have you spent holidays at shelters giving out blankets and food for them?
This is done every day in our church. And millions of us participate in these good works.
So before you throw us all into the same pot of being horrible I suggest that you look at what we have done that is good in the world.

Oh and by the way the comment you made about abortion?
"Abortion is a totally different matter, although the Church's taboo on contraception can lead to increased abortions."
Can you give me some examples or links on these facts?

I will give you a couple of links on our works....I'm not sure your interested in actually seeing what we do but want you to at least think about what I've said.
crosscatholic.org/index.php?submenu=WhoWeAre&src=gendocs&...+Partners
www.dioceseofprovidence.org/?id=14&uudis=32
religion.wikia.com/wiki/Catholicism

What is written about in the Bible is man's inhumanity to man....man's pride, man's hatred, man's lust, man's rebellion, man's disobedience....and like any parent will do... God's judgment on all this.

If the Bible was full of goody goody's and they never did anything 'human' like murder, lie, cheat, fornicate, blaspheme, lust....it would not be believable and people would say...it's just a fairy tale. But because it is filled with the truth of what people actually DO...then people say it's a book filled with untruth and hate. I just don't get it. NO matter what, people find an excuse to discard the Bible. They find an excuse not to HEAR the love and mercy and forgiveness after all that....lusting, killing, rebelling, fornicating, lying, cheating etc.

Go study what the ancient people were really like from an anthropologist familiar with the last 6000-8000 years of human history...there were some real awful things done. And you get upset cause God steps in in judgment? ok...I shudder to think what we'd be living under if he hadn't.

@hornswaggled

See my response on page 3. Apologies for that.

http://www.mylot.com/w/discussions/2111863.aspx?p=3

@debrakcarey

When the first-born of Egypt were killed by "god" because "god" interfered with free will and hardened Pharaoh's heart, was that a demonstration of love, mercy, and forgiveness? Or, was it manipulation on the part of "god" because "he" wanted to prove to "his" "chosen people" how bad and powerful "he" ("god") was?

I thought "god" created and loved all races of the world.

The problems with the interpretation of the word of God is just that...an interpretation; by a human.
This has always been the problem through the ages. I know as well as a million other reasonable Christians that loving God does not entail murdering someone in his name.
But if you look at the news anytime they are talking about extremests in other countries; they talk about how to kill infidels is the only way to get to heaven.
Do you think that is what God has in mind for us? NO!
There will always be instances of people either really believing that this is God's word or being so sick that they believe He is talking to them and telling them that they need to do this.
Or, as in some cases of history, a person or persons desire for power; which has nothing to do with God but everything to do with the failings of humans.

I can't make you believe all that I have told you. All I can say is to pick up the Bible and to read it. And to study it. And I welcome another talk with you to tell me what you think.

Are you saying that "god" doesn't know how to talk straight so that there is no possibility of misinterpreting "his" word?

"God" doesn't seem to be a master communicator, does "he"?

All "god" needs to do is talk straight. Is that so difficult for "him"?

Talking straight= No need for interpretation.

How ridiculous.

"God" doesn't seem to be a master communicator, does "he"?

All "god" needs to do is talk straight. Is that so difficult for "him"?"

Who said He didn't talk straight. If you read his words they are clear. It's that others do not read it correctly either because they get out of it what they want and twist them to fit their needs or they are misinterpreted by people that have an agenda.
I don't have any issues in understanding God's word. He talks of love and understanding. He does not talk evil or of hatred toward others.

You don't want to believe their is good in his works so you are reading into religion the things that validate what you want them to be.
I can't change that. All I can say is that unless you really study the bible and his works you will not understand.

Can you explain the following?

Isaiah 45:7

"I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace and create evil. I the lord do all these things."

So what do you mean can I explain it?
It talks about how he is everything....but He also talks to us about free will. If we follow him we will be rewarded. If we don't follow him and study His words we won't be able to have an afterlife.
His words are for all but if you don't study and follow God's way then you won't understand Him.

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So with your interpretation of this passage you believe God is saying He's the maker of evil?
This shows your ignorance. He is saying he made US....which does evil.
Do you not believe we have the capabilities to do evil? Obviously you do since you don't believe in Him....so if that is so then you must realize we had a part in the evil of the past. And they we made some of those choices.
I am not going to keep up this discussion of your rhetoric. If you don't believe you don't believe.
You have your ideas and I have mine.
We will never be able to understand each other so I am not going to go over it again.
I do wish you well in your endeavor to make the world a better place but I have to tell you that you will never find true happiness until you can come to some kind of terms with your hatred of religion.

Your "god" talks straight doesn't "he"?

Repeat Isaiah 45:7 aloud and imagine that you are talking to someone who has asked you the question, "Who are you and what do you do?" (LOL)

What are you trying to do? Re-interpret an obvious statement that doesn't even need context?

Put that statement in front of any human being and it's obvious that the utterer of the statement is describing himself/herself.

Or, is this another instance of "god" or the writers of the bible lacking the ability to talk straight? Why not simply say what you PRECISELY mean. (LMAO)

Religion has had hundreds of years to lead the world towards great human understanding and peace, but they blew that great opportunity and became a part of the problem.

"Religion is divisive and it's a failed system of thought and religious people cannot make a permanent positive long-term difference to the world, even though they claim to have the power of an invisible 'god' behind them. The emperor has no clothes."

Religion has brought pain to humanity. Who can deny that? (LOL)

Religion has had its time. A new way is needed.

Religion is not a Buick you throw away when it gets old. It's been around for a thousand years and it will be around a thousand years after you kick the bucket.....and doesn't that just irritate you?!

Of course religion will be around for a long time after we are all dead. (LMAO)

After all, most mainstream religions like Christianity are based on FEAR OF DEATH. But for those of us who don't believe in religion, religion itself is already dead. (LOL)

It wasn't long ago when preachers used to try and scare people with "Brimstone and fire" sermons. Why have many preachers stopped using such an approach? Because modern people are more informed.

As far as I'm concerned, religion is a backward way of thinking. (LOL)

As the centuries pass, religion will gradually be exposed for the fraud that it truly is.

As an example: the church was exposed for its ignorance in believing that the earth was the centre of our galaxy and universe. The church even killed and tortured people for stating that the sun is at the centre of our galaxy. How could people who are in touch with the creator of the universe be so WRONG? Did "god" want the church to look stupid?

I guess it was a way for "god" to say to the church, "I'm going to expose you as liars and frauds."(LOL)

If you wish to believe that religion is all bad that is your choice. For me and mine....we will serve the Lord.

Did I say religion was all bad?

There are some wonderful religious people in this world. I strongly disagree with their religious perspective, but they are great people nontheless.:-))

Religion is a very personal thing. It is for everybody to decide their path. You're on a path to serve your god as you desire. Obviously, your beliefs bring joy to your life and that's great. Everybody is entitled to their beliefs.

All I've been doing is disagreeing with some of your views on religion. Surely, there are people like myself who will disagree with you. And most certainly, there are people who are going to disagree with some of my points. It's all built into the debate.

That's all it is. A debate.

When anyone shoots down my point, I come back with another reasoned response. It's not about trying to change minds. It's not about conversion.

You know why I regard religion as divisive because I have given my reasons to support that position. You don't have to agree, of course. And I wouldn't expect you to agree. I expect you to dig into your arsenal of words to come back with some hard-hitting logic that will stretch my ability to respond. At the end of the counter-arguments, I expect to say, ...

"Good debate";-)))