A tale of two ACORNs, has the GOP shot itself in the foot?  

Or maybe trying to punish one entity and being too stupid to realize who all else it affects...

More rash than stupid. Blood lust is a terrible thing, red mist and all that. But when republicans see an organisation helping to register voters who are primarily from low-income neighbourhoods who will probably vote democrat then the red mist comes down. Not to mention their corporate buddies who see ACORN campaigning for raising the minimum wage. No, no diversions, pure blood lust.

Oh well a minimum wage is a direct assault on their beloved capitalism. Can't have that!

And just what is wrong with capitalism. With out it we wouldn't have electricity automobiles or appliances. Wed all be working for the state at jobs they decided we should do.

Capitalism has its good and bad sides like everything else. It can be abused like every other system can be and has been. But anyway that comment was made at least partly tongue in cheek.

Dee, Capitalism is a good THEORY. The problem is that no country has ever actually tried it 100%.

"With out it we wouldn't have electricity automobiles or appliances."

I hate to tell you this, but if it wasn't for socialism, the world would have been sent back to the days when we didn't have electricity, automobiles, or appliances. In a true capitalist form of goverment there would be no money to bail out the banks. They all would have just failed and sent the world into a depression if not worse.

Dee -

Capitalism is not the biggest influence on technological development, quite the opposite in fact. The main drivers behind invention are curiosity and necessity.

Nikola Tesla, arguably the most prolific inventor of the 19th and 20th centuries, was not driven by the profit motive but by an intense desire to understand the forces of nature in the form of elctromagnetism, and to harness them for the benefit of mankind. Contrast this with capitalism, as represented by JP Morgan. In 1931 Tesla invented a method of wireless electrical transmission which was powerful enough to run a 1931 Pierce-Arrow touring car. When told that anyone could draw upon this power source, JP Morgan's comment was: "But where do we put the meter?". Needless to say the idea never got any further. So if anything, capitalism is an obstacle to technological development. If there isn't a profit to be made then ideas won't be developed.

Also, as thegreatdebater says, if banks adhered to the main principle of capitalism i.e. a perfect market with perfect competition, then they would have fallen victim to the capitalist philosophy they apparently support and would have gone out of business. But banks use capitalist practices when it suits them and socialist principles when capitalism fails them. Greed and hypocrisy, nothing more, nothing less.

But what about all the corporate fraudsters mentioned, don't you want to stop them as well? Or are you okay with people like KBR being responsible for the deaths of service personnel while picking up millions in tax payer dollars?

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Taskr, so explain to me why it is that REPUBLICAN companies like Haliburton, Blackwater, and KBR are caught embezzeling hundreds of millions, and still get MY tax dollars? All three of these companies have been found guilty of stealing, embezzling, and fraud in US contracts which I would believe would be a federal crime, but they are not only that in jail, but they are still on the government bank roll.

You gave a good explaination why ACORN shouldn't get anymore money. Please explain to all of us why these three corporations that donate to republicans are still getting US tax payer dollars? Especially when they have been accused of stealing hundreds of times more than ACORN and for decades.

Go after all of them then. I don't want crooks getting my money. As I said, I don't care what this means for the DNC or GOP.

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Please! Nobody even knows where the money went. It sure didn't go to hiring qualified employees or providing qualified employees with the proper tools to do their jobs.

That's not the point here. The point is why are republicans screaming for ACORN's head when they conveniently ignore the real criminals who are guilty of far worse crimes? You don't appear to have answered that one yet. Or do you stand with the hypocrites, as you haven't condemned them, only ACORN.

"There's so much that needs to be invested and taken seriously. From Obama on down and through the entire shebang."

That quote is what I said in my first response. Somehow you missed it or just ignored it. You have absolutely no idea what I think or who I believe should be investigated. Now you said it, prove me a hypocrite. Find anywhere I said that only ACORN should be investigated. Go on, I'll wait.

I didn't say that you said only ACORN should be investigated. But when you refer to Obama on down that's a very sweeping statement which seems to imply that you think Obama and his team should be investigated, with no mention of the republican party at all, and it's them I'm calling into question here for their hypocrisy. Which is why I asked if you stood with - as in, agreed with - the hypocrites i.e. the republicans. The corporations I've mentioned are, in a way, only a side show to the main issue here, which is the hypocrisy of the republican party. My apologies if you thought I'd called you a hypocrite, I hadn't.

Accepted. I should have been more clear on my Obama on down statement. It's the money trail that follows them all.
Oh and welcome to the lot. Sometimes I am nice not often you blink you might miss it.

Irish, can you avoid the question anymore? I know you have done this to me many times, I thought I was special, but I guess this is a patter for you. Why do you ask questions when you won't answer everyone elses questions.

Bater, you're only special in your little mind. So what do you want? Me to list people? Companies, Corporations? How about phone numbers and addresses. Would that make you happy? Do you need photos? What exactly would make you happy because my experience with you is that the truth is never enough for you.

Irish, just answer the question. Why should we go after ACORN when we have corporations that have done much worse then what they have done. And, are still getting tax payers dollars. Why aren't you upset about this????

Heck yes, we should go after all of them. I believe I already said that, in fact I'm sure I did.
Not playing your game, bater. You want debate? Then actually debate and not the twisting games you like to play. That's not debating.

Irish, our government didn't go after these guys, they patted their wrist, and said don't do that again. Then gave them hundreds of millions more, and hoped they wouldn't do it again. If you look at these case you would see that these companies didn't even try to hide what they were doing, nor did they care if someone found out. Why weren't these corporations ever brought up on charges of fraud, or embezzelment? The only time they were investigated is when someone did an independant investigation and then the DOJ did something. It is sad, and needs to change.

I agree. All of them should be investigated and called on their actions. Let's include the banks that took money knowing well what it was to be used for, then turned around and bought other banks,etc. They were dishonest and knowingly took the money under false pretenses.
My mind is drawing a blank on the company, but the one that was in the Middle East. Black something. Didn't they get away with some pretty serious charges?

One of the big problems is that the criminals are judging the criminals. Look at all the fraud and dishonesty going on in the house and senate.

That's exactly what we have Irish, criminals judging criminals, on both sides of the house.

The company you're thinking of is one I mentioned - Blackwater. They have been getting away with fraud, gun running and murder for years. They've now changed their name to Xe but are still getting government contracts. In fact Obama recently extended their contract in Iraq.

Irish, I hate to tell you this but if you look at the profits from these banks that we bailed out it will make you sick. All of them are setting records for profits, and are building up these huge stock piles of cash to pay off TARP and then hand out huge bonuses. The problem is that the government financed, and pushed corporations into merging with each other creating huge profit centers for the banks, and allowing them to drop the low profit centers. It was a perfect deal for the banks, and the American tax payers paid for it.

"Heck yes, we should go after all of them. I believe I already said that, in fact I'm sure I did."

I think you've said it 4 times now. I think bater is just itching for a fight so bad he'll continue to argue with someone who agrees with him. I stated in no uncertain terms that they should go after these groups and I don't care what it means for the RNC or DNC yet I got multiple replies attacking me too.

Taskr, finally something we can agree on.

Thank you Annie. I too am sick of seeing disc after disc slamming ACORN but never the real criminals. ACORN should be investigated and made to clean up their house, but so should every organisation which is funded by tax-payer dollars.

Good point about the voter fraud allegations. The DOJ couldn't find one instance of voter fraud linked to ACORN, and according to a recent study, 80% of the media failed to report that ACORN had investigated every possible case of voter fraud themselves and reported each one they found. Good old corporate media, you should all thank them for keeping the public as misinformed as they always do.

ACORN have done a lot of work in stopping foreclosures, more than the government has. And they were warning people about the dangers of the subprime bubble a long time ago. But hey, they had the nerve to help register voters and campaign for higher wages so they just had to go.

Thanks so much for the BR!

Annie

I know it's future funding they're cutting and I don't think I said otherwise, if I did please correct me.

And yes, Congress - both sides - need to get on the case as regards all government contractors because we're talking billions here, and serious crimes. I just want to know why the Republicans are conveniently ignoring these when they're fully aware of them. For instance, I believe McCain was throwing stuff around about ACORN on the campaign trail last year but as recently as last month, he was working with The Project On Government Oversight (POGO) in getting more helicopters for special forces troops in Afghanistan. The info on Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman was taken directly from POGO's website and databases. So McCain should know all about the crimes being commited by defense contractors but he stays silent. Hypocrisy, no other word I'm afraid.

ACORN is a criminal organization and needs to be investigated under RICO, immediately.

That doens't mean you are wrong though. Yes, Congress needs to finally step up to their Constitutional responsibility to audit revenue they allocate.

That was one of that sk@nk Pelosi's promises when she was jockeying for the job of Speaker. The lying wench never had any intention of doing it though, too many of her own crimes would be uncovered.

Politicians always say one thing when they're seeking power but once they get that power, the amnesia kicks in. Pelosi, like so many others in the house, has a few skeletons rattling around in her cupboard, and she won't be rushing to unlock the door.

So let's quit shrugging it off as if it doesn't matter.

Some may shrug it off, I don't; but Pelosi's not my target here. I was called everything from a liberal to a marxist, along with a few other 'terms of endearment', on my first discussion here. But I'm actually very bipartisan - I detest 99% of ALL politicians, regardless of what badge they wear. You're just as likely to see democrats in my sights as republicans.

No, I didn't forget, but it's not just republicans who take their money. You only have to look at the campaign contributions of Max Baucus and the rest of the yellow, sorry, blue dogs to see that. From Obama down, there aren't very many dems who don't accept corporate money when they're campaigning, or when they're in office. Speaking of Obama, why don't you check out the directors at the Chicago Council on Global Affairs (offshoot of the original CFR) and you'll find Michelle Obama sitting at the same table as corporate America.

To be honest the research for this wasn't difficult. It's just that most people don't bother, they rely too heavily on the MSM for all their info, and they're biased towards the views of their corporate owners. But cognitive dissonance is by far the major problem. As I said elsewhere to a friend of mine: some people simply cannot cope with the thought that they have been lied to by people who they have come to rely upon for defining their reality; and if they rely on the Fox fascisti for their info then that is what they will believe is reality, when it isn't.

Thanks for the good luck wishes.

And the left believes WHAT? Everything that comes out of any Liberal's mouth...so who is worse? The corporations that often do contribute something of worth to our society along with the greed and the complacency of that greed...or the liberal social engineers who are pulling apart our society in bits and pieces just for a few social welfare programs that may help someone? Woldview is a b*tch greatdebater....either way, either one (worldview) you hold too...the little man gets screwed and left for dead.

Deb, can you explain to me again what this has to do with US corporation exploiting their large donations to a certain party, then committing hundreds of millions in fraud, and hiding behind those officials that they paid for? When ACORN did this republicans went crazy, but then someone points out that defend companies have been doing this for decades republicans go into full denial mode. Please explain to me what the difference here except for the amazing amount of money that the defense industry has stole from the American people, and the number of dead Americans because of their greed.

I agree that they should be investigated. Along with ever cent spent on the war in Iraq, and every contractor that misused tax payer funds should be punished by placing their CEO in jail for a year for every million dollars they stole. That will NEVER happen.

Sierras -

I agree, ACORN should be investigated, like any other company or organisation which is in receipt of tax-payer's money. But if you really are 'all for them going after all organisations that are involved in fraud', then why aren't you and other conservatives/republicans on here coming out and saying so? I don't see it anywhere on here. The only difference is not publicity, it is blind belief in one set of politics, regardless or whether that is right or left based media and political mouth pieces. And I'm not just getting at the right here, the left is just as guilty. Me? I'll have a go at all of them if I think they're doing wrong by the people who elected them, despite what some here may think, I have no party allegiances.

Do you mean the Against Corporations Organising to Rip-off the Nation Act?

If you do then I agree, and it's NOT a BOA, that's the point, it's not forbidden by the Constitution, Article 1. Isn't it a simply inspired piece of legislation?

The way I understand what you describe as a BOA...it is specific to ONE corporation...so my thought was legislate against ALL of them. lol But I do see now the merits of the other. What do we do if they claim they are falsely accused? What kind of balance is included in the this? Do we put them on trial first...prove that they are mishandling federal money or knowingly hurting the public? I am all for getting rid of greed and making corporations accountable. My concern with this is it would be used to bring down the competition, so to speak, by those weilding the governmental power behind this Act. Say a government contract was given to one corp. and another wanted it, what would stop them from influencing the government to accuse the competition falsely? YOu know human nature as well as I do, if not better. Is there protection under this law for those who may be falsely accused? And were do we draw the line...with only those who get federal money? Or do we include ALL businesses? From corporations of thousands to the private enterprises of all of America?

Yes, a BOA is specific to one person or organisation and is not permitted under Article 1 of the Constitution, which is why the first ACORN Act which went through the house is in trouble, because it specifically targets ACORN.

But the second ACORN Act proposed by Betty McCollum is broader in scope and targets ALL companies and organisations who have been convicted of felonies and are in receipt of federal funding. It doesn't deal with all companies guilty of felonies, just those in receipt of federal funding. The rest of the crooks will still have to be dealt with under existing legislation.

I haven't looked at the bill in detail so I can't say anything else about it but if you google it I'm sure you'll find the info on one government site or another.