Former President Bush has more class than President Obama?  

Article: http://latimesblogs.latim...

Thank you, Lamb!

That's kinda how I've been feeling. I understand if someone likes him because he's charismatic but the time for stumping for the presidency is over and it's something that is starting to annoy even some democrats!

Rollo! according to some of the media reports the Bush family requested no publicity to their visit.
I agree 100% that Obama did not say much because the shooter was Muslim and he(Obama) is very, very careful not to disrespect anyone who is now being heralded as an Islamic hero!

I figured the reason Obama isn't going to the Berlin Wall ceremony is because it isn't an opportunity to put down America. He also can't take any credit for any of it.

KUDOS for an excellent response!

Excellent points! I personally just wish the liberal media would just once...once say something real about this newest president that didn't smack of hero worship....just once.

First of all, Debra, I think you express yourself really well. I actually have not delved into the facts in this case, but 13 lives lost by a shooter is very appalling indeed, and as always my heart goes out to the families.

But noting you opening line - why are equating with some wider Muslim plot rather than a simple problematic gun ho and gun free nation such as the US. Columbline or any other massacre (where more victims have fallen), is all too common in the US. Gun lobyyists need to be marginilised and laws tightened, surely this is the way forward. All shooted have a twisted mission to save the world, we should not allow weapons to be so easily available. So why are singling this incident and in particular that he was a Muslim??

I struggle with this question often. On one hand, I am a woman and by nature, I value life tremendously. But, I am also a woman who has been abused and even at the point of gun...had to submit to someone who meant me great harm.

Today I watched a video...in this video there was a woman who had lost both parents to a madman with a gun, who came into a local fast food place and shot both of them and many others. She was testifying before Congress on gun control. She said, I do not blame guns, I blame you sitting here, for taking away my ability to protect myself and my loved ones. I know how she feels.

It sounds trite to say...guns do not kill people, people kill people. But there is truth to that.

We are both Christians. We both love and believe in Jesus Christ. We both understand that LOVE conquers all. And I know that I don't wish anyone who is living in peace beside me, any harm. I can be loving and tolerant of someone with a differing faith. BUT, I cannot, and I do not believe Jesus teaches me to be, tolerant of Evil. He himself...expressed anger towards those who would kill the soul...through lies and deceit.

There ARE those of the Muslim faith who teach that it is permissible to Allah, and even pleasing to Allah...to kill the infidel. That's me and you, Cloudwatcher. ALL of us who are NOT of Islam. Political Correctness is not TRUTH. It is just another part of the deception. Google Quran verses that teach that paradise is found by killing the unbeliever. I've read them. It made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. And we are being led down the garden path when we are told there is no danger here. These verses are being used as an excuse to KILL.

We are told in scripture to HATE sin. Not the sinner, who is trapped in the condition of SIN....but rather hate THE SIN. I do not hate one soul on the face of this earth. But I can tell you that I hate sin. It is what brought my Savior down to earth to die for me. And I would lessen His truth if I said that I tolerated sin. The world at large can not comprehend this...when we tolerate evil, call it righteous....we are not living in peace or love, we are enabling the evil.

Yes you are right, guns do not kill people - it is the people with the guns that do. My heart goes out to the incidents you describe, but I think a couple of issue are mixed here. First of all, in owning a gun for self-defence and one for attacking are to seperate issues linked only under the generic umbrella of owning a gun. And from what you are saying, if he has a gun and I am honest but he attacks me, I need a gun. I get killed. Yes - the self defence and attacker argument. BUT - that is not the answer - in Europe we have very tight gun laws, and it is reflected in the gun crime statistics. Yet you have cases of defenceless people being shot with illegal firearms. But the law is swift and the police do prevent many other crimes - and perpertrators are caught and lenthy sentences passed. This saves lives. But even in this scenario, many attackers and self defenders own guns illegally, but with limited supply it is not easy. In the US, deregulation has filled the streets with easily accesible firearms - the police at all times need to be armed - in Europe, they do not have to be.

On the Muslim issue - in the UK, many of the cities are Muslim populated, and if what you are saying is true, that the Quran teaches to kill - then why do you not hear or terrorists going on killing spree who are Muslims in the UK. They are very angry about foreign policy and the like. This is because of the tight gun laws in the UK, very difficult to own one or get a license.

On the google Quran, I think you are misled, with respect, on the teachings in the Quran and the connotations towards evil. As in the Christian scriptures, the Quran also promotes peace and nowhere does it promote violence. But when some verses are taken out of context and placed on its own, yes of course that verse would imply violence.

This example, I know, about killing unbelievers is used by Muslims and others against to justify their actions whether it be terrorism or defence. But, the Quran only uses these in the concept of Treaties or wars which were ONCE faught and the breaking of the enemies oath, or when all avenues of peace were exhausted. Even then, the Quran promotes migration rather than war.

But Muslims and Christians alike forget, that whilst the Quran has these discriptions, it also has very pre conditions, example mentioned above, for this to occur. And in its pure sense, a 'Holy War' or the killing of infidels or unbelievers cannot possibly waged in the Quranic sense today because the conditions are not there, they are purely political, not Islamic. Therefore, these Quranic injunctions do not apply because no Treaty is in force, nor is Islam physically being attacked. But all the peaceful and merciful connotations do. And nothing is evil about that - terrorism is evil and is nowhere permitted in the Quran. In fact Islam condemns a suicider to hell, so whereever a suicide bomber goes, well unfortunate for him!

True religion, as in Christianity, with Islam is peace - this is what is in the Quran

I was referring of course to those very verses which terrorists use to justify their killing and the promotion of suicide bombings. I am not Islamic...I only know what I see and what I read. What I read is someone of the Islamic faith shouting out Allah Almighty and killing 13 people, and praising suicide bombers. What I read is the history of Islamic 'colonization' and forced conversions. Has history been recorded wrongly? Has the record of bloody conquest after bloody conquest been a lie? How about the treatment of other monotheists, which Islam says it respects...Although the law differed in different places, the following are examples of colonialist laws to which colonized Christians and Jews were made subject to over the years:


Christians and Jews could not bear arms -- Muslims could;
Christians and Jews could not ride horses -- Muslims could;
Christians and Jews had to get permission to build -- Muslims did not;
Christians and Jews had to pay certain taxes which Muslims did not;
Christians could not proselytize -- Muslims could;
Christians and Jews had to bow to their Muslim masters when they paid their taxes; and
Christians and Jews had to live under the law set forth in the Koran, not under either their own religious or secular law.

In each case, these laws allowed the local conquered people less freedom than was allowed the conquering colonialist rulers. Even non-Arab Muslim inhabitants of the conquered lands became second class citizens behind the ruling Arabs.



I was a student of history way back when....before it became political expedient to paint a pretty picture of events. I acknowledge that my own faith has a bloody history...even though the teachings of Jesus Christ are that of peace. I have no doubt that the Quran has many many passages that teach peace and good works, just as my scriptures do. Why is it that I can acknowledge the shortcomings of some of those who practice Christianity, but no Muslim will acknowledge the short comings of any of those who practice Islam? Why the threats of beheadings for those who will not submit to Islam and an even 'greater holocaust' for those who oppose Islam> This happened in London by an Islamic group that called itself peaceful and took to the streets with signs and placards? I acknowledge that Islamic culture has made great contributions to the world. I acknowledge that not all Muslims are violent and hate. But what you and I disagree on is that Islam's goal is to rule the world...and force everyone to submit to Islam. It is it's history and is it's present goal. And judging by it's history and present actions of many of its adherants around the world....Islam does not mind using the 'sword' to accomplish this goal.

I supported our entry into Iraq...I do not support our still being there. Why did I support our entry into the war, because Saddam was a tyrant who murdered his own people. And the yellowcake, to me, is an indication he wanted to produce weapons of mass destruction to take his cruelty into other nations.

btw...Pres. Obama still hasn't pulled out of Iraq, has he? He's had a year to get that accomplished.

Debra,

I think the fundamental differences that you I disagree on is not the substance of actions of various groups, but the constant labeling of those groups which have no true allegiance to a religion or any peaceful doctrine in the world, past or present. I think Debra, you have to understand that PEACE is road to be on regardless if you are a Muslim, Jew or Christian. What man has interpretated this into is what is the fundamental problem of society and not the religion as you conveniently apportion blame to.

The Crusaders were said to be 'Christian' but slaughtered thousands and thousand upon Muslim women, children and men. Southern Spain when overrun, the Muslims were also slaughtered. More recent events show Bosnian Muslims attacked because of their faith.

The Muslims by contrast, were not the 'sword' hungry conquerers that is portayed by the West. But they did advance sometimes, illegitimately, and yes at times, attacking for land, which is an Islamic concept.

But if you want an honest answer to why religion should not be apportioned blame nor its teachings of war, you only have to look at the actions of the founders, guided by their religous faith and imposed for time immorial. Jesus was crucified, for what, for preaching - early Christians could not defend him and he accepted his fate as to the will of the people. When he survived, he did not take revenge or attack the Romans or the Jews in anyway. He decided to migrate and leave, simply because this was the best option for the sake of peace. Yet Christianity survived and spread.

Muhammad was constantly attacked by the Meccans in Saudi Arabia, yet never was the order for Muslims to attack. Muslims were dragged, tortured and even killed at the hands of the Meccans. Yet, the eventual response of Muhammad was not to attack, but to migrate to Medina. When Medina came under attack, armies were raised by the Muslims to defend. When these attacks were becoming beyond a nuisance, and the Meccan situation for ever increasing converts to Islam was intolerable, Muhammad marched into Mecca with 10000 men. Incidently, of all these battles which took place, the message of Muhammad to all his followers was not to kill unnecesarily and if they repent then spare their lives, or take them prisoner. Women and children were expressly forbidden not to be targeted. Thus, when the Treaties were signed for PEACE, and they were broken by the enemies of Islam at the time (eg the enemies attacking Holy Places in Mecca etc), this where the Quran talks of 'kill them where you find them' or 'ambush them' and other conotations which imply violence. This does not largely apply today, as their is no unified Muslim faith or a Treaty with the Muslims and non-muslims.

Two points in the above stand out. First, both Christian and Muslim founders by their own example, (Moses, Abraham and Noah are also simililar), portray a very peaceful method of dealing with their enemies. They also preached for the love and peace of humanity attaining the nearness to God. Do you think really, that the founders would be condoning any violent actions by Christians, Jews and Muslims. No, they would not accept this skewed version. Therefore, you must not be linking things to Islam as if in anyway a 'terrorist' is at all Islamic.

Secondly, the 'sword' cannot convert millions as the Crusades proved. Therefore, violence is part of human nature and contained and controlled by a codification of rules and regulations which in the early days was religion.

In the case of the shooting, there is nothing Islamic about it, its just a shooting, there is nothing Muslim about his actions, but a criminal individual which no religion or authority condones.

Obama therefore, has no link in this kind of shooting - as it is done by criminals which all too common in the states.

He just gave a press conference and was dubbed "the comforter in chief."

Well, that would tie into his whole "messiah complex".

Whereas Reagan is known as "The Great Communicator"... Comrade 0bama will forever be known as "The Great Deceiver"...

You are toooo funny, I am having a look at some of your postings - .......

You are funny with you lipstick tags!

You are an idiot....

You are so right!

Oreo, remember the ole cliche, "you can't get something for nothing?" It certainly applies to presidential elections. Look what the country is going to pay for a few people getting their mortgages paid off.

Hatley Obummer is the reason your son is out of work. If you insist on adoring Obummer then where is the change he promised such as correcting all the wrongs Bush is getting blamed for? Wait until you Medicare doesn't give you the same coverage as it did under Bush I wonder if you will still adore Obummer. One thing I do have to thank Obama for is I have been a staunch registered Democrat ever since I was eligible to vote but now thanks to Obama I have now changed to Independent!

Hatley, do you realize that they did find yellowcake in Iraq: http://www.foxnews.com/st...

Yellowcake is Uranium ore and necessary for both energy production and weapons. Did you realize that even Iran was nervous about Saddam Hussein's nuclear capabilities? What a laugh...do you not realize that the press and the DNC has been very busy demonizing the Bush Administration to make us all scared to vote Republican? Are you really that naive? Sure, Bush did a lot of stupid and unconstitutional things...just like Obama...but let's not put ALL the blame on him. Let's look at it from an objective view and realize that WE have been SCREWED by both parties.

Do you also realize that the banks began failing under Clinton? And that it was the democrats who made the failures likely by over regulating and forcing the banks to lend to risky borrowers: http://tsfiles.wordpress....

Let's also realize that just a minor bit of dissent from Americans and Obama decides we are all 'domestic terrorists' and starts making lists of 'dangerous Americans'...but fails to call a Muslim who shouts Allah Almighty before shooting and killing 13 Americans...a terrorist and even expects us to feel sorry for him. Bush took a lot of bad press...his ratings fell drastically....he did not throw temper tantrums and try to silence the press who was calling him to task for his policies either. I have no respect for a man who sits in the highest office of this land...who cannot take the heat and who thinks it is all about him. He isn't at the ceremony commemorating the fall of communism in Germany is he? Cause it's not about HIM...He accepted a Noble Peace Prize....one that was predetermined to be his...before he was EVEN ELECTED...and fains embarrassment...what are we to think...the fall of the Berlin Wall was a major step in peace for our time....yet he is not there? The man does not want peace for America or for that matter any where in the world...he wants to be worshipped as a messiah...and even jokes about that, knowing how it would offend the Christian and Jewish communities...but God Forbid he should offend one Muslim! Give me a break!

I am sorry you feel that we are name calling and find offense in a differing opinion...but in politics...opinions are what you get. And just like you say you are entitled to yours...others are also entitled to theirs. Why, may I ask is it ok to bash Bush...and speak as I've seen others do about his administration...but it is offensive to bash Obama...when his policies are affecting US NOW? And Bush is history....

You can't bash Obama, because if you do you are labeled a racist..period. Anyone other than Obama is fair game. You can believe what you want, but the truth stares us all in the face. I like the man and his wife...but I don't like his politics.

This is what I hate about US politics, the extremism. At no point did Hatley say she adored Obama yet you interpet her words as such.

Ok Hatley; Where did I bash Democrats or Liberals.....This is what I said...and I quote "I have some friends here that are liberals or democrats." I consider you a friend and in spite of our political differences I always have. You are an intelligent person and a passionate one....just like me.
I did not say that Bush was a saint...I said he was being compassionate. This is something that I feel he did right in his presidency. He believed in his vision of America even if you don't agree with it.
As for our president now....where was Obama? Why didn't he denounce this killer? Why didn't he go to those people that were injured? To their families?
I don't care who you think you are as a president this is something that I think is a given....something that we as Americans should expect of our leader....someone who cares!
I ask you this.....do you think he acted fairly? With compassion?
And I know my link was not clickable but Mike made one that was...I'd like you to see what Europe is saying about what he did or did not do...and I'd like your opinion on this...because we are friends I am sure you will give a thoughtful and insightful answer to these questions.

Thea...I don't believe I found where anyone said/implied someone here adored Obama. And if having an opinion is extreme...so be it. Wether it is Hatley's opinion or an opposing one...it means people are thinking and not being led around by their noses.

Ok..I missed it. She did say Hatley insisted on adoring Obama. Forgive me please.

This doesn't need to turn into an argument. If we stop discussing our opinions, we stop thinking. Debate and differences are not bad things. Hatley, I am sorry that you are offended. I don't think anyone meant to insult you. Not intentionally anyway.

Debra,

Your threads seem to often revert to muslims and terrorism.
Why do you find 'yellowcake' arguments ie splitting hairs just to accuse a nation ( the yellowcake, or ore you refer to the production of uranium) ?
Moreover, why, as I see across many of your postings, you will attack Obama and quickly call him a Muslim, defend Bush vigorously, and go far as attacking Clinton if you have to - come on if you are debating, Muslims, Obama do not have to be on your attack list all the time - a little balance in otherwise well expressed views would be nice - I hope this message reaches you peacefully.

I do not defend Bush vigorously. lol I did say here that he seemed to have some understanding of the need for compassionate expressions to those grieving after 9/11 and the Ft. Hood massacre. No human being is all good, nor all evil. He was a lousy president, he made some very bad mistakes...but he is not all bad. Neither is Obama...I give credit where credit is due.

I have expressed my understanding of Islam up above, but since you question me again I will tell you a story of my FIRST experience with a Muslim online. I was new to using the internet and quite naive. Being a person who is curious I went to what I thought was a Jewish chat room to ask questions about Kaballah. I accepted an invitation to chat privately with someone who called himself an expert on Kaballah. We began by discussing the history of the middle east. He said he lived in Turkey. Not once did he say what his religion was...but by implication he led me to believe he was Jewish and knew Torah and Kaballah. After about 30 minutes discussing history the conversation turned to recent events in the middle east and as I expressed my support of the Jewish immigration to Israel...he turned quite violent in his responses to me. He said I should be raped and hung upside down and gutted...in shock I quickly exited the chat room. I do not use chat rooms anymore!
Since this occurance, I have met other Muslims online who are good and kind...I have many on my contact list and friends list on Social Networking sites...we discuss religion...they explain to me what their duties to Islam are, we exchange scriptures and discuss what each believes God wants from mankind. I allowed myself the privilege of getting to know what OTHER Muslims were like, instead of allowing ONE who hated me to cloud my judgement of ALL. I do not hate Muslims, I do not advocate hatred between or towards any group based on ethnicity, skin color or religion. But because of these good people who shared their faith with me...I have done some reading on what Islam is, what its goals and tennents are, what its teachings are. I do see that many are peaceful and want only to live in peace. But I also see that the teachings of Islam permit no 'infidel' to live 'peacefully' where Islam is in power. And I have read that Allah demands ALL to submit to Islam and commands faithful Muslims to see that this takes place. I do see that many Muslims take that to mean killling an unbeliever who will not submit....to be Allah's will.

As for President Obama...it is not wether he IS a Muslim or not...it is his disloyalty to America, our Constitution, and the people who live here and pay his salary. He has said if it comes down to choosing between us and Muslims, he will side with Muslims. NO LEADER of a diverse land such as America has a right to say he would stand with one group, over another group. He leads us all, not just one group. For that, I call him a traitor to the many other groups of people who make up America.

Well there are so many problems that have come up since the Obamanation took office. Any Democrats want to prove me wrong with actual news reports do so or stop acting like children.
1. Obama was an unknown from the start, and has been siding with Muslims since he was a child.
2. He has been challenged by the people to show his Birth certificate, and a year later still has not showed any proof that he is not a Muslim, and that he was being taught Islam beliefs. There is even investigations being closed by his lawyers.
3. He has not kept any vigil for any American, and even explains away all the hate crimes being committed in the USA by Muslims, but are kept under wraps.
4. He has never even saluted the American flag, or was sworn in on the bible, but swore in on the Qua-ran.
5. He has filled most of his staff with Muslims, and even went as far as make new openings in Government to put them in.
6. Egypt even is saying that he is the new King Tut, and is the destiny of Islam to take over the USA and turn it into a Muslim state.
7. We are the infidels they constantly remind us of, and that we must bow down to all Muslims and deny our Christ for their Allah.
8. All Muslims can not be trusted in this country because they have to put Islam first no matter what, and the Qua-ran even states that the Islam God is the only God ever to be above all the world.
9. The Qua-ran states that lies have to be used, if need be to destroy their enemy's.
10. Obama is the destroyer of the USA and Israel because he is trying to steal the land that God has given to Israel, and force Israel to give it up, when he should stay out of their affairs, because Israel could have stolen their neighbors land for miles around if they wanted to but didn't because they were promised the land by God.
11. Their Qua-ran doesn't mention any land that was promised to Muslims by God, but it does state to take land by all means necessary even killing Innocent people. While Israel does all it can to target just military weapons without killing Innocent people.
12. And the Democrats and Republicans are the one and the same family, and all they do is pit all you fools that start fighting each other over which party is better, and all the Government wants to do is bring in the New World Order and take all the rights of America away, so they can depopulate the public so they will be more manageable when they take over, and start a dictatorship.
13. The government is pushing the Muslims into conflict with Christians so we kill each other here in the states, and do all the depopulation ourselves, to make their job easy and fast, and the Muslims are just the executioners for Obama to bring in Islam rule, into the states, and we just play right into their hands, by letting them coddle the Muslims when they kill Americans, and make excuses for actions.
So before you fight with your fellow American over politics, think about joining together and abolishing the whole Government and starting all over like the Constitution was written to do. TAKE BACK AMERICA before it is too late.

Debra,

I actually posted the above before your response to my other post. As always you do have way with words and your explanation is very credible the way you describe your experiences. But let me join you in condeming the interpretation of the Quran by those Muslims who use it to kill 'infidels' or 'unbelievers' thinking this is what 'Allah' wants. Your experiences with peaceful Muslims and your own research should also give a conclusion that the Quran does not permit or call for such actions, something I have explained in an earlier response above. Therefore, the first point is not to use the Muslim card in political bantering. Moreover, both radical Muslims and Christian or political superpowers play against each other, which is neither Christian or Islamic or even Jewish other than the people who claim to belong to this faith.

No, most religions have their foundation firmly in the one God, and they are always founded peacefully, their founders, (Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad) were all very peaceful people, and the preached the love of God. So when man decides to use his religion to pitch hate against another, why would pay lipservice to this and condemn others of the faith to the same ideology. The person who said you should be raped, is hardly a human, let alone a Muslim!

And as I have explained before, the killing references in the Quran and 'infidels' and 'unbelievers', refers to conditions which are long gone, conditions either for a Holy War or agreements or Treaties broken of peace. No such conditions exist today, and all is by and large political in the physical sense. Therefore, we must separate and marginilise these people on both sides to reach peace.

Article: http://latimesblogs.latim...

clrumfelt.....Mike the Link Valet did it for me....Thanks MIKE!!

I read it, and I thought it was the most empathetic action I have seen toward our troops in a long while. But then, I have always felt President Bush has more class that President Obama.

Thank you....that's what I've been trying to say in this discussion.....just that. Not politics or grandstanding but just that....he has class because he cares about the soldiers...