A vegan's perspective on abortion.  

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Doh - typo... Adoption or foster care....

yes okay,but people of religion always have a big say when it comes to issues regarding abortions,but in an extreme case,what is the right thing for a woman to do if she has been raped? Who will be in a position to give her "advice" then?Ladybug,you may have heard of a religious group of people called Jains,an offshoot of Hinduism,they belive everything has a soul.The strict followers of this faith,walk naked as they refuse to wear clothes,stating that clothes are made from cotton and therefore will not have a plant killed for the sake of wearing attire.Thank you

I may end up researching the jains, because it may be an avenue I wind up taking.

I think prolifers agree that when extreme cases are involved, the victims receive customized therapy, just from that instance alone, but, the hard part is if she ends up pregnant, against her will. She is then faced with this turmoil. It's not something she should have to burden, and hopefully, the religious right will agree.

PS - Keep telling me of more people like the Jains - I am also researching gypsy magic. So PM me whenever you think of any.

I agree, religion should be removed from the equation in this instance. I also am in favor of having options presented but I am most strongly in favor of arming our young people with information, experience in a learning environment and making birth control services available to them. You mentioned an academic real life styled parenting program in your OD and I forgot to address how effective the one we have here in Hooterville has been. They use an animated infant that the student has to keep for 3 or 4 days...I don't remember the exact number now...but that baby is difficult to deal with and the student has to respond to it's cries quickly and effectively because the baby has a timer and this lesson is 1/4 of your grade. My youngest daughter decided afterwards that she will not have a baby until she's 30! The funniest thing was when it "went off" in the middle of the night and she couldn't find it! I went into her bedroom and she had her entire bedset off the bed searching everywhere for that baby which was screaming. It was in the blanket and my daughter quickly shut it up but she was so upset by the whole thing that she couldn't go back to sleep for a long time. She also was kicked out of at least one class because her "baby" was crying. All of the teachers cooperate with the lesson which is designed to show teenagers how difficult being a parent really is.

I am not sure how the fake babies work there, but here it was that you got a little like key that you would turn into your babies back and "feed them" until they cooed so you knew they were full. It didnt really teach anyone about really having a baby because you could just take your baby into bed with you, and sleep and just mindlessly put the key in with the babys face kinda down in the pillows....in real life, everyone who did this strategy would have killed their children

And let's not forget the poops of a newborn baby, crass though this may be. They are not cute little pebbles. They are mushy and the consistency of a melted chocolate mixed with crisco and silly putty.

And the spit up is no walk in the park. And the teething. OMG, the teething.

I would want a very life like doll, and it sucks to say, but they should be programmed to wake up at 2 or 3 in the morning. That's where the digital webkin like doll would work well, but we need the full essence and severity of what it takes to bare a child, and like you mentioned, where it could sense if the baby was in danger of being smothered.

We are in the techno age - they should be able to come up with a close likeness of a real baby.

This baby was a lot more complicated than that, spicy. The baby came with a bottle, a pacifier, a diaper and a change of clothes. Whatever it was the baby wanted, including just to be rocked, it wouldn't stop crying until the student did that. Being kids, they all tried the rocking bit first and, if that didn't do the trick, then they had to try everything else until it stopped crying. It also came with a carrier and they weren't allowed to use a stroller...they had to lug the baby and it's diaper bag around with them all day. The parents had to sign an agreement that they would not "babysit" and we were informed that it would go off in the middle of the night at least once and that the other teachers would be kicking the "parents" of crying babies out of class. It was up to the "parent" to make sure they didn't miss anything important while they were in the hallway with their "child". It's too bad that it didn't really poop or spit up...that would have really grossed out some of the kids...but my daughter has had enough real life experience with her nieces' and nephews' bodily fuilds anyway.

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We agree that education should be available, and it should be available early and easily -- well before a pregnancy ensues.

I've got nothing about fully informing people about their medical options. It doesn't take 3 days to do that. Also, I think you overestimate the risk of "psychological scarring" from abortion. Anti-choicers have tried to show a link for years, but even C. Everett Koop couldn't bring himself to assert there were any when President Reagan ordered him to make that claim.

Wow - so we have been hoodwinked again?

I was excessive on the 3 day part, but, I definitely think 1 day is a compromise for prolifers and prochoicers. It shows that real educated thought is going into a difficult decision, and I think the therapist should be an expert in post abortion and post adoption counseling.

I think in the circumstance of a victim situation, this should be a given, and no one should further harm them when they are already in a delicate enough position. I think anyone who refuses them an abortion is really insensitive.

I forgot about the reputation that comes with putting out. It's been a looooong time since I was in school and in that kind of social arena. And, we are in the myspace age, where people are almost encouraged to show off their bods or whatev.

And you mentioned, in this day and age .. out here, ecstacy and cocaine are the drugs of choice when clubbing. Even the high schoolers rave, and that, obviously impairs judgment. I think clubs should have a condom bowl or something, so they will encourage safety.

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It is a touchy subject when people start making decisions about what is "best" for other peoples children. I know I don't want other people deciding what is best for my kids. I am their mother...I will decide what is best for them.
Making it a law that people can't opt out their kids will step on a lot of toes.

What if your kid got a disease from another kid, whose parents chose to opt them out of proper education, even though your kid used proper precautions?

I think everyone should know the proper precautions, because condoms are not 100% effective, and neither is birth control.

A real example could be the responsible kid requested the partner to use a condom, and it may break. If the other kid who never used a condom before and unknowingly had an illness splooged into your kid, a virus might just transfer.

It's different than deciding what a kid watches on tv, or eats, or wears. It's life, and protection. There shouldn't be a debate about that.

I agree with you that older kids should know those things..my kids will. But I am saying SOME parents will have issues with it because of religious issues and as the parents...their wishes and views have to be considered and respected.

It is almost saddening - because its like watching someone walk to a cliff, and you tell them, watch out, there is a cliff, don't keep going, but then they continue to go off the cliff.

I do understand religion, I went to catholic school all through my elementary years, and I do know that some good comes of religion, but in this case, they really have to be fair and give kids a fighting chance.

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I do agree and I understand perfectly your stance. As you said, prevention. This was apart of what I teach my daughter. I am not stupid, I was a teen, I know what they do
BUT to be honest with you, regarding teen pregnancy, I believe this became such a big problem after we kicked God out of everything and all action became socially exceptable. For crying out loud, we have schools for teen mothers. How in the world does that make girls think twice? When I graduated from high school, I learned a very important lesson, teen mothers and high school drop outs got so much more than I did. I was penalized for graduating and not getting pregnant. Now there is even a show 16 and pregnant. Nothing like glamorizing it.

I think the show “16 and pregnant” is a good eye opener, especially on a channel that normally glorifies a promiscuous spring break and scandalous reality shows. It shows teens in particular what happens to you when you make a baby at a young age. Your life changes in so many ways. Your social life is a thing of the past. You will not enjoy waking up at 2 in the morning for a feeding, while babies are cute, they are also poopy, smelly, and whiney. You’ll have to get a job so you can care for the baby and pay someone to watch the baby while you go to the job, after getting miserable sleep the night before.

I don’t think the removal of god made much difference in what activities occur, I think it may have lifted a taboo, but these things always happened, and maybe with the spread of disease and unwanted pregnancies, we are just beginning to notice and un-bury our heads from the sand.

I actually support high schools for pregnant girls, so they have people in similar situations and age groups to cope with, and they can form alliances and babysitting groups, etc. And they won’t have the teen mom scarlet letter stigma.

There are so many different aspects to this one subject, but it all boils down to prevention, prevention, prevention!

So what do you tell a parent when their daughter dies of a blood clot caused by the birth control pills? What happens when the parent sues the school for wrongful death?

A lot of this are just subjectives and what if’s, so of course, the particulars are not worked out. If this were a “law” and we handed out birth control and condoms, I would expect that to be done by a gynecologist, whose job is to make sure they are properly suited for whichever birth control they opt to take. There are several different methods of birth control.

Who are YOU to make that decision? What if a baby is born blind? Should he be aborted to avoid suffering? What if the child is born deaf? What if a child has Down Syndrome or autism? Where does it end?

I am NOT the one to make that decision. I leave that up to the woman carrying the fetus. I will tell you of my experience, though, so you can see where some of my influence in my decision has come from.

I used to work as a nanny for a couple who adopted a baby addicted to cocaine at birth. NO ONE wanted to adopt her, so this couple did, that worked as nurses in the hospital. I started when she was 8 and I was 18. I saw her abilities and disabilities, and was able to compare the differences. Her adoptive parents told me she had the developmental equivalent of a two year old. Carrying a child while addicted to a drug is a form of abuse. Incidentally, that baby was adopted by a lesbian couple.

A family friend of mine is autistic and a family friend is deaf. Some of the most brilliant people are born with disabilities, and I would leave it up to the mother to decide if she wanted to take on the risk of a possible birth defect, and if she wanted to impose it on her child.

My boyfriend was diagnosed shortly after birth with a genetic illness called cystic fibrosis. I watch him suffocate every night on his own phlegm, and have comfortably grown to accept he may die young, and my not live another four or five years. I watch him in agony coughing, sometimes blood. He has already been in liver failure.

Cystic Fibrosis comes with a 1 in 4 chance of a sibling having it, because he is genetic. His brother could have been spared this agony, but his mother chose to have him. Luckily, now, we have screening for this illness, but, I think you can see what I mean.

I think it is up to the woman carrying the fetus to decide what the more humane decision would be. I think it would be rough to bare a child who will be born with full blown AIDs, or something to that effect.

Blindness, deafness, autisitic, downs, etc … they are birth defects, but, it is up to the people in the circumstance to decide what will be the best for their child.

Like some people in third world countries give up their children to people in developed countries, knowing they would stand a better chance.

It’s something each decides for themselves. If this were about me wanting to force people to do as I want, I would not be so open to exploring ALL options. That is what I really want – people to have knowledge and access to prevention, and people to know their options. That is a compromise to prolifers and prochoicers alike.

Sorry - that was not meant to be all in bold. I pressed the wrong button.

Sorry again - he went into renal failure (kidney), not liver.

taskr, where have you been for the past 30 years? Teenage girls have been getting birth control pills from clinics without their parents consent since I was a teenager.

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No, I'm not opposed to the morning after pill for those who wish to use it. I'm not even against the idea of an abortion if that's what a person wants. The pro-life stance I take is my personal choice, not one I force upon others.

That is a really great answer. A lot of people feel that way, too.

I think, because we all try to respect life and potential life, the order of importance should be prevention, followed by the morning after pill, and then, it gets to the difficult decision.

It's hard because this seems like a really avoidable problem.

@irishidid: If your stance is that you would are morally opposed to obtaining an abortion, but do not believe that those who do not hold your moral objection should be prevented from obtaining an abortion, then your position is pro-choice. The position that calls itself "pro-life" is that the full force of governmental power should be used to prevent people from obtaining abortions, regardless of their own beliefs.

I know Metallion, I just don't like the term and they haven't come out with a better one for those who believe as I do. I'm going to fall on the side of life every time, but I believe in a person's right.

It's a tough decision to verbalize, because animal rights activists are sometimes prochoicers, as in my case, and we are often asked how we could be so hypocritical.

It really is a matter of minimizing the suffering, and I wish more emphasis was put on prevention than the aftermath, but I can only hope that will happen with time.
And, I don't want anyone to think that anyone in the position of such a difficult decision takes the decision lightly.

Thank you for your post. :-)

Very interesting perspective – and I am glad you spoke up.

I definitely agree that three days is overkill – I was just thinking that a woman/girl should be armed with so much information to help her make the right choice for her that I thought cramming it in one day would be overwhelming.

I get uber frustrated when people refuse to teach preventative measures. What do they think will happen? If no one ever shows them how to insert a diaphragm, or even where to look for condoms, etc, they could end up with an unwanted pregnancy, or a life threatening illness.