Explain to me why I should believe in god.  

Well that's the thing. I have never seen, or heard, or felt, or sensed anything. I cannot find any evidence for him at all, that is why i don't believe in it. But millions do, so I am looking for good evidence and argument as to why they do.
Please people, don't say I have to believe in order to believe, or similar things. I need facts.

Hello!!
You say you are a scientist and still dont believe in God. Do you believeyour car can run without a driver. you fod can be cooked itself or your job can be done without you (or sombody else) doing it. If such small things cant be done bythemselves, think about the universe. How can it be run and run so accurately without somebody controlling it? Ask yourself this very simple question and then let me know.
And somebody says he cant believe what he cant see. Well.. can you see me brother? Does this mean i dont exist.. WOW great approach11

If you asked a chemist what energy is you'd hear what is and always is, the beginning and end of all things. You ask a philosopher the same question you get exact same answer.

Point is, you are God. God is within you. Have you ever heard of the book series Conversations with God by Neale Donald Walsch? I know this will blow your mind, God visible if you close your eyes and open yourself up to him. HE is the ultimate truth meaning is LOVE.

LoL naseem, your comment were so close minded, it seems like that kind of things you tell to a child to explain something you don't know how to explain...
All the creation exists for a serie of favourable events.
Life itself is just a casuality, born from a chimical/ayomic process for a lot of coincidecies which happened at the same time a lot (and I mean, REALLY a lot, and not just 4000 years ago, like bible says, lol) of time ago.
The fact that mankind creates things to be used, doesn't mean that everything in the universe is made to be "used" by someone.
And then, if you believe that someone controls everything, why do you live? If your fate is already written by someone else, why do you struggle so much to continue to exist? It's all written no? So it doesn't change anything if you do or do not make anything....

where did we all come from if there was no one to create man? did we evolve from apes? but where did apes come from? where did dinosaurs come from? how does everything exsist in the world and in history? can you answer that? probably not...

true, but you're a little bit too cartesian too, Naseem has not so false argument, ok, the big-bang, the evolution and every other scientist facts are true, and explainable, and on the scientific side, everything can be prooved and has been. I do fully agree, until one point: what happenned the second before the big bang and the creation of universe? Who or what did cause this Big Bang? Until now, nobody can tell, and I'm sure we won't soon ...So why an idea like God creating all that would be more stupid than any other one? You're also close minded in a way...
On another hand, the bible was WRITTEN 4000 years ago, and the notion of time is purely human. Man created time, it's not something universal; if we did encounter ET's maybe they would not fragment time as we do. So, what are these 4000 years, or the seven days of creation? 4000 human year, seven human days? who knows?

There is NO creation w/o a creator not even mankind. Your destiny is not predetemined (to an extent) that's why God gave us freewill. I suggest you find a strongs concordance & a kjv bible,investigate for yourself. Man will lead you astray or try to take your money in the name of "so called" religon. Faith also requires that you simply believe-there are plenty of things that can't be seen that are very real,like the wind & you may think you can measure wind but you can also measure God working in your life.

Great reponse lyloo, I love when peple gives me hard time arguing ^^
So, let's try to defend our opinions.
Universe it's really old, and our planet is relatively young.
Every day in the universe galaxies dies, galaxies borns.
The same happened to the Solar System, as always happens.
A serie of events make exlpode stars, create galaxies, and all the rest.
But I know what you want to say, you're talking about...when the universe started? Right?
Well, on that case I cannot argue anymore, there's only theory in this question. Time is really relative if you talk about universe, and human mind cannot explain concepts like "nothing" 'cause, like it's obvious, it has always seen something, and never the "nothing", the "unexistence".
But then I have to ask...if a God created everything. How did God saw its birth? He's something who came out from nothing? And if nothing was nothing, how can a god born from it?
He has always existed? In the nothing?
If he's something, he cannot be in nothing, don't you think?
I know it's intricated, don't reply if you prefer^^'
In any case I'm giving you a '+' for your comment, I really appreciated it.

LOL Xeedar, you have already answered your question. God was never 'borned', because he always 'exist'. He's 'there' all the time.

nothing comes into existance without a creator. the big bangs, the atoms, every thing has been created.u say u dont believe what u have not seen. Did u see a big bang? did u see apes evolving into man? then y did u believe those things? and all that u have read in ur class texts and other books?

u urself are an evidance. look at urself. u too have been created.

this universe is run by God. the physics, chemistry etc are made by God for running this universe.

to see the God's power one simple example: can any other power in the world make 100 mangoes from one seed?

thats God.

So Sir, try to reply to my questions.
And you, funfreak, if everything is created by someone else, then tell me, who has created god?

About the big bang and the man evolving by apes.

Big Bang is a thing that daily happens in other parts of the universe, so I know it exists.

Man didn't evolve from apes.
What we call apes and men had some common antenates, the first primates, but it's too much complicate and scientific to eplain.
What I can tell you is that, yes, we have proofs in fossils.
Don't believe me? Who cares, I'm just trying to arguequietly and smartly with people who knows how to do it, like lyloo.

xeedar, my comment was actually addressed to belpromo and i forgot to mention his name. now to ur questions.

God exists always. he has no beginning nor an end.

i never argue with any one. i just try explain the fact, whether any one likes it or not, whether any one believes it or not.

I was referring to your sentence,
"He has always existed? In the nothing?" The answer is, yes. How can He? He is God, how come he would be a God, if he can't. :D :D

Nobody creates God, God was never created. If he is a 'creation', would that make Him a God? Of course not.

Yeah, I agree with you, big bangs and all of that, it's all exist. Who make it exist? Nature? Refer to the my response on other page, especially near the ending. ;)

Xeedar, first thank you, because I also like to have discussions with people not sharing the same opinion as I do, I mean...I can only learn from people not having the same points of wiew, those who have the same, weel, lol it would like be talking with myself which get soon boring, loooool.
I will answer you, but not today, and if you don't mind per PM, as I fear I won't be able to write here until monday (maybe sooner, but I can' guarantee). Why so late? well, first because it's already late in the part of the world where I live, and I have to care about my family, then, english being not my mothertongue, I have to think straight and deep before answering especially for tough and abstract subjects like this one, and last but not least, because unfortunately tomorrow I have many things to do and WE's, well, I can't access the computer, as hubby spends most of the time on it:o).
So if you don't mind, I'll answer you per PM, so my answer won't be lost in the mass, and no, I just WANT to answer you, even if it's hard, I like those brain challenges (and you seem too, right?)
Have a nice eeerrr, what?, lol whatever, a nice everything;o)

At this point isn't god just a way to easily explain what the human brain cannot explain?
It has been one of the reason that religions were created to.
Catholic is no more than one of the different evolutions of prehistorical cults.

@ Xeedar!
you said Naseem gave a childish reply,but if u you think with cool mind then you can get that it was the best and short reply.Off course a blind man can't see what was in that simple reply,I rated + NASEEM00.
Now what you are asking is that if somebody else has written our luck then why we are living for ? why we struggle.
Dude,its very simple.why we do struggle,before this you should ask why God create human ? why he send us on earth ? He dont need us,he never need any of his Creation.We all need HIM.Infect this world is an exam for us.We have been told two paths.One is path of evil,which is against the Good,Other is the path which is Good and one could find its destiny by walking on good path,no matter the Good path will have so many difficulties in start but Destiny will be good for ever.And in the same way bad path will have more attraction and ease in start but its end is so painful and off course pain Forever.we can't say a single word unless God permits us to do so,we can speak because we already had permission.
we have enough power to think and then judge.We've to decide on our own that what result we want by walking on particular path,Either its path of Evil or path of Almighty God.
We have the power to choose,and enough knowledge to understand what we should choose.Our scientist also asked earlier that if God is there then why killing is so common,why we die etc..He must understand that we here for just a test,not to live here for ever.Life is after death which will be endless.but mostly humans are attracted by affection of bad path,which seems to be easy as The guy is saying that why we die ? Means he is still looking for easy method without thinking about result,just a short cut to be successful so he don't want to die.
My dear,Just open your mind then you will not ask for a proof about God.

NICE THOUGHTS.................qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq

Sorry lyloo, my answer was for pyan.
Certainly that you can answer me via PM, I'm happy to find a so friendly people which doesn't count theological differencies^^

For the others, sorry, I have to go now, I'll reply later or tomorrow.

Well, discussion like this is very good actually. It helps people from different belief interact with each other, just make sure mind your manners, and respect each other. :D

For me, it's very easy to realize God's existence. The only impossible part is, finding 'real' evidence of it, and it will stay impossible. That's why there's no point asking for proof in term of objects or reality theory or hypothesis. The word 'real' here in terms of things you senses with 5 human senses and human mind. If it so easy to find out with that, how can a God be, a God? It's not simple, but it's not complex either. That is the unique thing about God.

"Life itself is just a casuality, born from a chimical/ayomic process for a lot of coincidecies which happened at the same time a lot (and I mean, REALLY a lot, and not just 4000 years ago"where is the proof of this tho? see just something else that hasnt been seen but is believed...when you actually see a human formed in this way then ill believe that...

so why are you believe in ienstien eqeation,ever you ask your self why ..why the E=mc2[square].

This is crazy, you must have faith.

I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't than live my life as if there isn't, and die to find out there is.

If you study the Bible and the teachings it all makes so much sense it even points to all the unrest in The Middle East in the present. Something that makes total sense to me is just as good as putting it in a test tube if you ask me.

I agree, how can you believe something that you've never seen just because someone tells you. Just because someone wrote a book about it long ago doesn't mean anything, What if that guy was on some dellusional drug or something and decided to write a story or if he was just an influential person, there are people in society today that will lead a cult of people to their deaths, and those people choose to believe in what the cult leader says himself,however that doesn't mean what he says is true. The ideas could have been passed along through time but that still doesn't make it true. Infact, these ideas were enforced back in the ages and if you didn't believe, you would be killed, it is possible people only held these beliefs out of fear, and it just remained in society because it grew to be so big, and because people needed something to believe in,as well as a form to explain things back then when science and technology wasn't really around,or I guess to make them feel better. if you really think about it, it's the same concept as in a cult, you are told to do things and say things or you will be dammed but does anyone have proof of this, has anyone met anyone dammed? I don't think anyone has to control the earth for us to keep going and for life to continue. I believe in evolution, and proven facts and theories. I've never seen god, and the whole religion thing is just another cult, what makes it okay? Just because other people say that's what it is and a majority agree, If that was true there would only be one religion not so many! how can there be so many if there is one god, or many gods as in other religions so which one is right? Or did god create all of these religions and if he did for what purpose? To confuse mankind? To bring War? Ask yourself that.

You should believe because it makes things easier.

You shouldn't just 'believe in it', but you should at least give it an opportunity. Experiment with it, TRY to prove or disprove it.

Why?

That way you'll know for certain and won't have to consider anyone else's views on whether or not god exists.

The real question is not WHY I should believe in God. You should believe in something if its true or not, not because of a reason of your personal preference. (that is only if you wish to know the truth) People don't believe in things because of 'why', people believe in things because of real. That is not the intent you should have if you're wishing to know the truth.

This is not to say that God is real, nor that God isn't real, but it's just simply for yourself to prove if its real or imaginary.

There is no answer as to why you should believe in God. But IS God real? Maybe not, maybe so. Go experiment, collect information, and find your answer.

believing or not is ur wish.
wat u ll loose if u believe?

annie what are you talking about? I didn't talk of individual human forms...I'm talking about the life's birth!
We have no proofs of its beginning, but we have for sure proofs it began hundred millions years ago, and not 4000.
And humen are really young. And their birth is totally ndifferent instead of what bible says.

@soFh123
Nobody gave us the opportunity to talk. Homo genre species, like the most part of the animals in the whole world, has voice.
Through evolution, someone of the ancient species before us (we still don't know which one, maybe ergaster, or erectus, who knows?) started creating articulated sounds, giving meaning to the sounds.
But it has been a slow cultural evolution, nobody gave us anything, we just reached everything by ourselves.

Well, God is supreme and the fact that there are somethings which can never be answered by mankind reinforces the fact.
Well, your eyes are deceiving you if you can't see god around yourself and inside you. The following lines will be more explanatory.
Who created God? Good question. Why always perceive god to be another human, God manifests himself in everything around us. He's in you and me, he's in the nature around us. He's omnipresent.
And you mentioned something like why do something in life when god has decided your fate... Well, we are but a small actor in this great drama called life, and God is the playwright, according to whose objectives we live. God has given this great gift called life, and he has given us our mental strength to survive. What better implements does one nee to improve one's life.
The fact that everything is so balanced here makes it rudimentary to have an Artist, whom we call 'GOD'.
Good day to you my dear friend, you've asked some good thought provoking Questions.
Regards.
Sanketh R Adiga

I like to add that I have not seen the person who started this discussions, is it mean that I will not believe his writings? God sent His information about His introduction through various Prophets and gave many proof about His existence and needs why His creature would belive Him. If you visit Egypt then you can see some proof. Do you know Mohammad was divided moon in two pieces and the scientist who visited moon saw it by his own eye? Unfortunately at encient barbarism adge, peoples killed all prophets for saying about God. Afterward God sent another new prophet for similar views i.e. with advice to beleve Him and to obey His rules. Jessus Christ (Hazrat Issa Alaihe assallam) is one of those prophets and last prophet is Hazrat Mohammad (Salla he Alaihe assallam)and God said Mohammad is the latest and greatest Prophet and Islam (muslim)is his religion. No other prophet will need by Him to announce His existence. So to proof existence of God cannot be said in a short span of page or within short time. God said who would not belive Him after seeing His wonderful creation (earth. space, air, sea, under the sea, under the earth, sun, moon, nature, sky, star etc.) God said who do not believe Him he should create one thing like Him say like a sun or a hill. GOD SAID THAT PEOPLE WILL TRY TO CREATE A LIFE AT THE END EDGE, BUT THEY WOULD NEVER SUCCESS TO CREATE A LIFE LIKE HIM. Can anyone create it (can breed not can create)? So there is God believe or not. Do you agree within your state who break the rule and do work outside rules is punishing after judgement in court? If so would you believe who will break the rules of God will be punished after judgement by God one day when he will have to face the judgement day after death. That day call Kiamah or Kiamat. Due to become a superman many Kings of old adge diverted, misleaded many religious truth just to became a superman adge by adge. So God gave man best brain to human then any beast or any other lives so human should research with that brain whether God is exist or not. God said whether anyone believe Him or not knowing Him or His rules announced through Prophets and seeing His creation, there is NO DEBATE POSSIBLE about His existence or His religions.

So where's all the missing links for all forms of life. I've not seen any of them either. And neither has science. Maybe a handful, a small handful at that, of hotly disputed cases... Yet they teach the absurd fairy tale for adults (frog turns into prince with the kiss of time) - this alternate reality fairy tale of man coming form monkeys, and dinosaurs became birds. Yes the tiny birds of today. But, this is our state enforced belief. And ain't it done wonders for the world / society.

!!!! JUMPING JACK RABBITS !!!!
I just woke and, through the blur, I saw with disbelief the number of responses to this discussion.
I will try and get through them all and maybe add a comment or two where appropriate. As this has captured the imagination of so many people, I think I will also try to summarise some of the more cogent views and arguments either in an end posting or a new discussion. But please bare with me, I am feeling a little ovrewhelmed at the response. To organise this discussion seems like a small project and will take time, and I mustn't neglect my wife. But thank you all for your input. Here goes ...

There's no missing link.
Evolution is slow and continous. Changes always happens, but they're really little. The concept of specie, is just a thing that scientist decide when in a group there are too many differencies from the originating group. But the change is slow, so there isn't a fossil which simbolizes tha change in a new specie. It's so obvious...

GOD is for real, there are proofs about it. it would not exist in this world if there is no proof that god exists, science and religion must co-inside with each other, there are some cases that science itself cannot explain like the soul of each person, the after life, etc.. but religion can explain it, on the other hand, science can explain the history of religion, specially roman catholics which has a direct connection from saint peter up to our current pope today. there are proofs about it. believe me, God truly exist, even though you dont believe in God, there would come a time that you, yourself would reach out for God, God will not come to us but rather God wants us to come to him, now, that's what you must believe in.

Sorry, what are the 'proofs'?
And why is it that we should go to god, instead of the other way round? What is the purpose of such a ruling? Why did god not place within us all a knowledge of him? A true, nailed on, completly understandable, universal knowledge?

dear axe_effect,

Yes, science cant explain soul and after life. But I dont think religion can explain it well. It doesnt explain what is a soul technically. What is soul made of? energy? particles? Source from another dimension? You have to have a reasonable answer. You can't give us something like a fairytale and it's cant be proven. We find that very unconvincing. Most of religion unexplain will end up.. something like it's unexplainable made by god. God is so great that did made this unexplainable.

If we were not to epxlore the nuclear power, radioactive materials and atoms were Unexplainable. You guys may just say, god made these unexplainable energy source to test us. OMG.. I tell you, it's simply god of the gaps. You just simply credit everything unexplainable to god, which what we call god of the gaps. Why not study what the universe is all about, rather than following blindlessly of what that is PROBABLY created by people.

Don't get me started on the after life thing. it's simply too good to be true, the heaven and hell thing. I'm not falling for that. I'm not gonna be a goodie boy just becoz i wana go heaven or afraid to go hell. That's not the way. You act by thinking rationally. You don't commit evil becoz it's unethical and morally wrong!. Not becoz you're under the threat of goin to hell. Not to mention that heaven and hell are most probably made up. Religious ppl may insist of ppl following their thinking, afraid ppl might do evil, lose their grip and so on. Well, I can assure you that we'll do no evil just to prove you wrong. Most atheist has their pride. They strive for intellect. I do think that there are more religious ppl made war, killing, raping and all than us who do not believe in god.

Yes, I do believe that religions were created. Created for the good of mankind. There was a time that poeple really needed that. Yet, for all those supernatural stuff, i'll pass. I may support 'buddhism teachings', confucionism and taoism. Those are teachings, not supernatural. I dont really pray for deities, sacrifcing things. But the teachings are okay. It's just about ethics and moral.

God is not seen. Your soule also not seen. Your feel not seen. If you sick you can not see why you sick. We, all mankind are limited in ability, capability. Gon is unlimited. God is true. It can not explain in short words. You should read a big book, the universe, and dialoge with God.

I was ticked off somewhat for not responding to Naseem00. So here goes.
First of all, thank you for your comments. Here is my response: Yes, there are cars that can be run by themselves, and yes there are foods that will cook themselves and yes there are jobs that do themselves.
But now to "the universe." and "How can it be run and run so accurately without somebody controlling it?"
I am not so sure the universe is being 'run so accurately' as you say. There is much evidence to suggest that the universe is tending towards disorder rather than accuracy.
However, that aside, there are certain laws that dictate how the universe behaves. For example, Newton's First Law of Motion: "Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it."
These are not laws that are imposed by any sanction we humans can command, but by the relative actions and reactions of the forces and matter that make up the universe. Many of them are entirely acceptable and are now taken as complete fact, as they have been tested and been seen as true time and again. Drop an apple and see what happens.
However, these laws and their results do NOT mean that they are the rules as laid down by any god. They are a reflection of what is.
Just because the universe is difficult to understand, it does not follow that it must have been created by a super being; in fact, I would assert the reverse is far more likley to be true, and that should such a super being have created the universe and us, he would have not given us such a headache trying to understand it, and ourselves.

Okkkk.. So I have been away and difinately have missed lot of activity here..
I see somebody here mentioning the big bang theory, what I dont understand is why there has been only one bang that did not result in destruction. Every other bang (explosion) that we are aware of has resulten in destruction.
Xeedar.. perhaps you are right when you said I think like children. But children tend to learn. Grown up think they have learned and need not learn anymore. So I prefer to stay the way I am and keep on learning.

@ stevew1805h .. You talked about cars that run by themselves, food cooked by itself and stuff..
Please tell me more about it.. thankyou

Big Bangs in the space always creates something.
Our big bang wasn't the earth exploding. It was a star exploding, leaving pieces around a limited space, those pieces has got orbits, got round form trough erosion, became planets.
It happens everyday in the space, we have hundred of proofs.
Sometimes you can listen in television "new galaxy born" and similar news. Never noticed?

Chaos, distruction, generates life.
Stacity is death.

Seems like you have all the answers.
Please tell me what causes big bangs?
What was there before the bang that caused this whole universe?
And yes. If apes/monkeys have turned into human beings. Why do we still find them? We have not noticed any change in them during past few centuries.

Xeedar.. I am extremely sorry I overlooked some of your comments posted earlier.
"Life itself is just a casuality, born from a chimical/ayomic process for a lot of coincidecies which happened at the same time a lot (and I mean, REALLY a lot, and not just 4000 years ago, like bible says, lol) of time ago." I really find it hard to believe all these 'coincidences' occured by themselves.

"The fact that mankind creates things to be used, doesn't mean that everything in the universe is made to be "used" by someone." What does it indicate then. The universe was a result of a series of coincidences and the rest is going according to scientific calculations/formulas? Honestly I find it really hard to believe. I dont know what makes you believe that.

"And then, if you believe that someone controls everything, why do you live? If your fate is already written by someone else, why do you struggle so much to continue to exist? It's all written no? So it doesn't change anything if you do or do not make anything.... " Thats a tricky one really, but I will try to answer that. I live because my Creator (Allah/God) has given me life. Will live for the time he has designated to me. Why do I live? To fulfill His commands, to worship him. Yes my fate is already written but, hmmm .. let me try to explain it to you. My fate is written means Allah knows what and when I am going to do, when I am going to live and when to die, etc. etc. but I am not compelled to do exactly that. It is His knowledge, not a track set for me. It is like you switching on you computer, You know that switching it on will turn the power on to the power supply and then the processor, drives etc etc. will get powered and run as they are to run, but there is always a chance that they dont run the way they are made to run. Anything could get wrong and cause the system not to startup. The same way Allah knows in His Knowledge whatever I am going to do and when and how will I be doing it but I always have the ability to do otherwise.
I hope i am not being childish again:)

Dear Naseem

Now, much of the studies of cosmology is being focused on understanding how galaxies formed in the context of big bang.

I believe that hard work of science will one day explore more of space. As before, the world was flat, we know now it is not. As before, suns and stars moves around earth, and now we know its not. After years and observations and research we will able to reason.

I dont think all of that is contained in one bible (or your Al-Quran)

We cant really tell yet whether there is some kind of 'power' is the cause of the big bang coz we havent really have detail study on it. Yet, you who does not conduct detail study on it simply credits 'god' who did it. We find that hard to accept. If it were god to do all these, we will find it out. But for the moment, your claim is far from logic. For all that we know, the cause might be instability at the center of the big mass in the universe, or some energy exerted on that mass that causes it to become a big bang. That might make somekinda sense. It is still under observation by people who studies cosmology of the galaxy.

Now we both don't know what causes the big bang. It's only because science has not reach that level of reasoning that yet. Because we are still observing it. So the only logical explanation is that it happens naturally. It is believed so as our technology has only reached that level. When there was a time the world believed the world is flat, it is based on observations and research made by scientist that time. Science may have new discoveries, and we will admit to which is more logical.

But.. will religion accept changes? I dont think so. You will just say it is the ultimate truth and so on.

I think you do understand what coincidence mean right? And as stevew1234h mentioned, again.. nobody arranges coincidence. That's why they are coincidence??? haha :p

I totally not agree with the fate thing. You shake a die, you get 6. You say it's fate. You shake again, you get 5, you'll say it's fate again. Every result you will account it to fate. You say it all.

Tell you what, you shake a die, you open it, you open and get 6, and then i tell you, I already knew it was gonna be 6. You do it again and get 5. After i see that, i will tell you again, I knew it was 5. So, am i the one who controls fate? I do feel the power now.

Fate, just like god, is an unexplainable term in a sense that it's like cheating. A term that is so perfect that it will be right everytime.

NOw we come to an agreement, that god is perfect. Since god is so perfect could he make a rock so heavy that he couldn't lift? If he could lift that rock, means that He has failed to make the rock heavy enough. If he couldn't lift that rock, he is not that almighty afterall. There is no such thing as perfect afterall eh? It can't be yes and no at the same time. It makes no sense.

Afterall you claim that god is beyond comprehension. If it were beyond comprehension, you wouldn't have the slightest idea of what it is, and wont believe it.

All your religion claims clash within itself.

Perhaps you should question, why some religion mentioned that you shouldn't question god...

I totally agree again with teikloon, and I just wanna add a question to naseem.

You said god creates us knowing our fate, perfect.
You said god knows how we are capable to change the fate that 'he' has decided for us. This gives us free will, do you agree?
This free will just tells that god is not perfect, 'cause he can loose control over us, no?
So, if god is not perfect, he cannot be a god, don't you think?

teikloon, what I do not understand from the very begining and till date is: Where did the mass/matter come from that after the big bang (we still do not know how it happened?) turned into galaxies? You say science is going to come with an answer. Your science has made different claims in different times (proven by your own argument). How can you rely on something that says 1 thing today and deny same tomorrow. Let me tell you how science works. Scientists (like all human beings) have the sences (they do use equipment i know but still we know these equipments are modified daily, reason? the previos one was not smart enough:P) and about our sences we know they are very limited. We cant hear outside of certain frequency, nor can we see outside of a certain spectrum. So, nothing we have is 100% complete/competent. Still we have concluded that there is no God but all this has been into being by itself. A series of coincidences... etc. etc. I dont know why are we trying to fool ourselves.
About fate.. Its not as simple as throwing the dice. There are people who can tell you what number is going to come and stuff like that, I do not know what phenomena they use but they can get the answer right. Nobody takes them as their god. Allah's powers are far more then that. More then you, me or anybody else could even imagine or think of. Ofcourse Allah (God) is beyond comrehension. Why would someone need to see him to believe him. His creations speak for his presence. Have you ever thaught of bud that has just come out of a seed, how delicate it is, a slightly rough finger touch may get it damaged. Yet it breaks up the earth over it and makes its way out. I know you can get some explanation from science to all that but I believe its Allah Who makes that happen.

Let me tell you a little secret here.. I was born in a Muslim family, hence I am muslim. But later at age 17-18 I started thinking exactly like you. Trying to get answers of God's non exixtance from science. But let me tell you very honestly as much as I tried convincing myselt that there is no God I found myself more and more lost. Finally I stopped making a fool of myself and got back to my believe in Allah, but my belief this time has been far more strong and I thank Him for that.

Oh that..

hmm, if im not mistaken.. it's from a big mass, and bam... it became smaller mass, as in stars/sun which is still burning, asteroids, and planets.. some maybe a rock which has alot of gas like neptune. And luckily some, have water, and others, which coincidentally mixed together with certain temperature and weather and created life. That's pretty much how it is.

Well, obviously, in the future, we wont tell you the world is flat again. Duh! We believe what is factually correct. If it is proven that your god exist, then we will believe it. If it is logically proven that the world is flat, we will believe it. We are straight, what is logic, we'll believe.

Now that we are able to go outer space and see more, we believe that we might find more explanation.

Of course you're claims wont change in time, your fate (as i mentioned.. a cheating term) will be a right answer everytime. Not right because it is truthful, it's because you call it anything you want.

Saying that there is no god might be a temporarial conclusion, yet the ones that concluded that there is god (YOU!) failed to bring reasonable explanation of its existence.

All i hear is all is so great, all is so nice look at me and you. Only god can do this.

But all we really need to hear is that, all this things, that you claim taht god made, HOw did got made it?

Now you will say it's beyond your comprehension? magic?

Again.. If its beyond comprehension, why are you believing it? OMG!
So you believe in a television that works without energy source? OMG!
If you don't know, learn!

Hello? That bud got cells inside you konw? You put it inside earth, inside earth got minerals and water you know? with correct range of pH, range of temperature and sufficient minerals it will grow. Cells multiply and forming bigger colony. Then forming others lignin, xylan and then 'break out to the earth'. That bud was not grown yet.. big deal! Obviously when you're a fetus, I could also step on you, and you'll die! Nyahahahaha...

When it is god's doing, explain how it's done. If you can't explain, you dont know, If you dont know... How on earth is it do u say something and you say you dont know??
People studying how cells grow, while you simply say it's god's doing.. without any justifications? You are so clever!

I really want to know, If your bible/al-quran mentioned how cells are formed, how god made cells, how god made cells? how god communicate with these prophets. Yknow, claiming that god communicate via dream is a haha to me. Then god created through dream and that person is dead will be a hahahaha to me. And if god can do taht then but not anytime now, i really do feel its like made up, and you've burned all evidence that prove you wrong.

- your little secret thing...Of course you are lost. You were'nt strong hehehe.. There's lotsa ways to become strong mentally, there are religious activity, motivation, meditation, loads of stuff that human created to keep our spirits up! You're probably born with it and already used to it.

Your story of going back to god does not touch me at all :P

Wei.. answer me the heavy rock question. whats ur opinion.. Can god made something like that.. or answer me this.. can god make a sword that could pierce through anything, and also a shield that can shield everything, try it on each other.. :)

Xeedar,
It is not like that. It is like God Knows exactly what I am going to do when and how will I be doing it. His knowledge covers it all and much more than that. It is like. And whaever I am capable of doing, whatever I might do is all because God has granted me the power/ability to do that. He difinately controls it and can always change it to His will. He is PERFECT and can never loose control and because He is the Only Perfect, He is THE GOD.

teikloon,
"if im not mistaken.. it's from a big mass, and bam... it became smaller mass, as in stars/sun which is still burning, asteroids, and planets.. some maybe a rock which has alot of gas like neptune. And luckily some, have water, and others, which coincidentally mixed
together with certain temperature and weather and created life. That's pretty much how it is. " if i m not mistaken?.. clearly proves you are not sure yourself. pure assumption. And

if it is as you say it is, WHO caused this all to happen, Why a 'bam' that caused bigger

mass to be divided into smaller masses..

"Well, obviously, in the future, we wont tell you the world is flat again. Duh! We believe

what is factually correct. If it is proven that your god exist, then we will believe it. If

it is logically proven that the world is flat, we will believe it. We are straight, what is

logic, we'll believe.

Now that we are able to go outer space and see more, we believe that we might find more

explanation. "
How much time do you wana take to figure out if God exists, will you be able to find out

before you and I die?? I mean whats the use finding out after we are dead? (we are going to

find out once dead:P)

"Of course you're claims wont change in time, your fate (as i mentioned.. a cheating term)

will be a right answer everytime. Not right because it is truthful, it's because you call it

anything you want. " YES OFCOURSE


"Saying that there is no god might be a temporarial conclusion, yet the ones that concluded

that there is god (YOU!) failed to bring reasonable explanation of its existence. " What

type of 'reasonable explanation'you demand. Something that could be proved in a science lab?

or some mathematical equation? No my friend! God is beyond that, He do not need to prove

Himself as that, you need to find Him out for your own sake. Look at yourself, you are His

creation. No creation without a Creator, thats as simple as that, dont believe it, your

choice.

"All i hear is all is so great, all is so nice look at me and you. Only god can do this.

But all we really need to hear is that, all this things, that you claim taht god made, HOw

did got made it?

Now you will say it's beyond your comprehension? magic?" No sir not at all, your science is

finding it out everyday How he made it. Its just that you assume it happened by itself and

We (the believers) believe He did it.

"Again.. If its beyond comprehension, why are you believing it? OMG!
So you believe in a television that works without energy source? OMG!
If you don't know, learn!" Whats thepoint in saying OMG (oh my God), you dont believe in

that or do you? (I really dont get the point about a television set that needs no energy,

pls elaborate).

"Hello? That bud got cells inside you konw? You put it inside earth, inside earth got

minerals and water you know? with correct range of pH, range of temperature and sufficient

minerals it will grow. Cells multiply and forming bigger colony. Then forming others lignin,

xylan and then 'break out to the earth'. That bud was not grown yet.. big deal! Obviously

when you're a fetus, I could also step on you, and you'll die! Nyahahahaha...

When it is god's doing, explain how it's done. If you can't explain, you dont know, If you

dont know... How on earth is it do u say something and you say you dont know??
People studying how cells grow, while you simply say it's god's doing.. without any

justifications? You are so clever!"

I knew you are going to tell me that. My argument remains the same. WHO makes sure the bud

gets that correct range of pH, temperature and sufficient minerals, YOUR SCIENCE or my GOD??

tell me WHO has designed such cells that multiply and so on....

No sir The Holy Quran is not a book on science, so it does not tell about sells and how

things are made. Whatever God could do before can still do it, dont you have any doubt on

that. Yes I was lostwhen I tried convincing myself that God does not exist. I am perfectly ok now. God can certainly do whaever He wants to do.

Now you tell me what is the difference between a living man and a dead man. Its the same body, heart, brain, liver, kidney, lungs, blood, etc etc. then why is one dead and one living, what is life, why does some medicine work on some patients while the seme medicine fail on other patient who have similar (same) ilness, 1 goes home the other goes to graveyard. why

First of.. don't repeat what i posted, it sure makes your post longer and makes more money to you. but it really makes me headache reaning it.:p

Really sleepy rite now, dunno if i could get this right.

I'm not really sure about this one. but the science guys really doin studies on the big bang. Ask mr.sceintist stevew1805h hehe. Big rock explode become smaller rocks. Probably inside the big rock got internal problems which makes it explode.. I really have no idea. So internal conflict may bause explosion, it is not necessary to have an external factor. Just like volcano eruption. moving lava and earth causes instability and erupts. You don't need to made up 'something' if you havent found out why. That is 'god of the gaps'

What's the use of finding out when we're dead. I really don't know man. If we found out that there is a god, i think the world is more stable. People really can follow only one god. Less war on religion too.

if there is no god, there world is more stable too. As in, there is no war because of religion. Moral and ethics may take the sole role in judgement. Well, it's kinda what is already being implemented anyway.

Either way, It could be a better place. Stop being so SELFISH. We study sceince and technology, to make better lifestyle, to make the world a better place. To learn about nature and also the universe. For the future generations to continue our knowledge.

I really do believe if the whole world using the same, language, same religion (if there is a god) and all being united, the world could be a better place. Yet people from different places and religion will stand their pride.Like japanese, dont wana accept engilsh language. For this reason, The technology will increase way faster. All you care is to stand on your own religion, regardless how illogical it is.

Honestly, why do you think there are so many religions? The highest possiblity is that it is all made up. For their own race, empire. And so many wars happened, to expand their religion. Sigh....

If i were to die, at least i have contributed much to science and tech.

Back to you..

Yes of course you say??? it is the most unfair term, yet you can say it proudly. It is meaningless.

Hehe.. kinda.. if possible you bring explanation/evidence that can be proved in science lab. Hmm.... anything that have repetitive results also we accept. we can work on that :)

What no need to prove? Need, those things you mentioned has no label says that it is god creation, I can also say i made it. You don't know? I made the sun. You won't understand how i made it.. it's beyond your comprehension.

If god is beyond that, how come you know it's his doing?
*You also read from bible. If any chance the bible is fake, then uh-oh..

Don't ask me to look myself nature, and unvierse, I know oredi by now, everything in this world is what he did you will say.

NO creation without creator? What makes you think the universe is a creation?
Refer * again.

The bible is so vulnerable. Also why do u think that god send prophets before and not now? So not logic.After all this years, the bible also might be added, changed and so on. You'll never know.

Erk.. OMG is Oh my goodness? Wakakakakakaka... hmm.. Oh my garfield also can?:P

No one makes the buds. It just happen when all of those things brought together. If it is put together, it grows!
That is just how things are.

Your question. Yup, diff between dead man and living man is, Living still concious and still functioning. Deadman, no conciousness, not functioning. Life is period of a person living. As in, still have conciousness and functioning body. Oh, that really depends on alot of factor. Doctor usually tells you that, there are factors such as, body strength,antibody, health condition, illness before, gender also plays part in causing different results even same treatment on same illness. We are human which have different conditions. It's not something 'Wow' that makes me believe that god made this happen.

Haih.. Nothing is perfect. Even with the same dose and same treatment, you can't get the same results. We are only human. Don't blame it on god


Err... So god can do whatever he wants to do eh?
Why can't I see him sending prophets now? Why can't I see magic anymore. I really want to see someone split the sea in two again.

back to the question again...
Can god make a stone so heavy he himself couldn't lift?
What do you think?

ALSO, you havent explain ur chataracteristic of your god.. is he omnipotent, omnipresence? Perfect?

PS: dont copy and paste what I wrote again.. later you dont have enough space to reply what you wanted to tell

Hehe.. didn't see ur first line.. don't repeat what i wrote.. Very hard to read ur comments.

Yeah I'm pretty much not sure about that thing. That is what i heard or learned before. I'm kinda honest hehe. Not assumption, I heard or read that one before. :p

Sounds kinda logic to me yo~

Way logic than your magic.

Again, If everything exist must have a creator. God exist GOd must have a creator.

There is no such thing as perfect. God can't do anything he want to. You ppl made it so perfect that actually backfired. :p

I'd like to add my 2 cents worth here if I might...I typed this into page 43 but it seems as if all the action is here on page 1...lol

Examine images from the Hubble Space Telescope as it peers to the edge of our massive universe. View the monitor of an electron-scanning microscope and delve into the intricate world of the microscopic cell. Try to comprehend the massive library of complex information code that instructs a fertilized egg to become a human being. Review the the nature of your own conscience, subconscious, standards of morality, and fascination with the spiritual world. Then put the two worldviews--Creationism and Naturalism--side by side and compare:

Explanations for Causation:
CREATIONISM- Something brought the universe and all of it's incredible features into existence.
NATURALISM- "Nothing" exploded into something for no apparent reason, and resulted in everything we see.

Explanations for Order:
CREATIONISM- Something produced mathematical formulas, chemical-based processes, and laws of physics.
NATURALISM- The chaotic first elements ordered themselves into complex formulas and information systems.

Explanations for Design:
CREATIONISM- Something is responsible for complex stellar, planetary, chemical, and biological structures.
NATURALISM- Random chance engineered apparent design and systematic complexity.

Explanations for Morality:
CREATIONISM- Something input love, emotion, altruism, and inherent moral/ethical values throughout the world.
NATURALISM- Unguided materialistic processes continue to evolve higher human consciousness.

Thinking this out logically only produces one result:

Something is behind everything we see. The best argument goes to the explanations for causation and order. In order for nothing to explode into something and form the universe through physical laws, then exactly how could it have happened if those physical laws hadn't evolved into being yet? Something had to have put those physical laws into place well before the big-bang ever took place.

I don't discount the big-bang theory. It's quite possibly the method that God chose to use to create the universe. Even scientists have said that the Big Bang Theory proves that everything came into being at one instantaneous moment, there by supporting the creation theory's claim of God willing it into existence instantaneously as he spoke.

They say if you give a monkey a typewriter that it would type out a short book in a couple hundred years, but that is only after sorting through all the jibberish and finding the proper useable words in the proper order. How likely is it that something as ordered, and complex as our entire universe has just evolved by accident in even several hundred million years without any "jibberish"?

As a scientist you must be familiar with Okum's Razor

The simplest explanation most always is the correct explanation.

Science holds this in very high standard and tests most everything according to this.

This being true, then what is the simplest explanation?

A universe exploded out of nothing into something, formulated it's own complex physical and emotional laws soley by accident and for no apparent reason?

or...

An Intelligent Creator spoke and it was?

Huh? Nothing explode into something???!?!

NO lar...

Big bang theory claim tht, once before the explosion.. or not really explosion.. more like expansion, all energy and mass were concentrated in one point.
Singularity.
Very dense.. like black hole.

NOt really from nothing into something da..

ok still then..that has it's own flaws...what physical laws were governing this "expansion"? And how did they get there? I guess you're going tell me that this "expansion" caused the laws of physics to come about? Not buying it. simply because of this: Without the laws of physics already being in place then your "expansion" would never be able to take place. So SOMETHING had to put those laws into place. Also like in my example of the monkey with a typewriter, random chance cannot bring about such a complete, complex, and ordered universe.

I guess next you're going to tell me that a tornado can rip through an airplane salvage yard full of parts and leave behind a fully functional 747 ready for takeoff?

also you say that all energy and mass were concentrated in a single point...ok..so where did this mass come from? how did it get there? what caused it to concentrate into this single point? where did the energy that caused this "expansion" come from?

I too have a logical mind...and honestly nothing of what you said seems to be at all logical.

do you expect me to believe that theres this little tiny bead of mass which contains our whole universe just floating around in nothingness, which for no apparent reason whatsoever just begins to expand and through random chance it turns itself into an entire universe with complex laws of physics and intelligent life which comes complete with emotion? WOW!!! kinda makes Okum's razor sound silly...

teikloon.. sorry for pasting your comments. Never knew though that makes my earnings more:D (i am not here to earn anyways)

Looks like he science guys are studying everything and havent come to any conclusion so far. The only thing they have concluded is that this whole thing has become into existance by itself. Thats really a great achievement!! NO He is not 'God of gaps'. Gaps are there because our imagination can not cover the truth. Its just beyond our limits. Think of asking a 1st grader explain you the Newton's Laws. What will you get? Its the same case here. We cant understand everything. There will be gaps to make us realize there is somebody out there. WHO has the control.

After you die? How will then you contribute to a better world? Dead people dont talk. If there is no religion, there will be no moral or ethics too. These things exist because there is religion.

Me being Selfish!!! are you alright?? And please dont make me laught by telling me what scientists do. I havent forgotton the devistation brought to the world by weapons made by scientists. Have you forgotton the world war II. The atom bomb? Was that invented by some prophet? Was that war (WW-I) because of any religion? Stop blaming religion only. There has been other reasons too.

You think so because you are shortsited. You dont believe in life after death. the dooms day, heaven or hell. And Japanese have their reasons for disliking English language. Don't believe me? Put yourself in their shoes and ask yourself, what would I have done to somebody who had used neuclear weapons on my people?

Yes there could be some religions that are made up, not all. I dont wana get into that detail. One has the ability to find the right out from wrong in his day to day life. Why he/she cant find what religion is right and what is wrong.

No brother you will never getanything like an evidence to be proven in a Lab. It is matter of faith and not some equation. You have to realize the difference. And talking of repetitive results!!.. Why you keep forgetting everytime a seed is put into earth it turns into a plant. You or your science is not providing it with the essentials (minerals, water, temperature etc., you know more than me). Just WHO is taking care of it while you are gone planting that seed and porvidint it some water. Isnt that repetitive result?? Stop fooling yourself. You know it very well this could never bedone by itself. Ask yourself again and again, you will get the answer.

Yes ofcourse, everything in this universe, (your science is even not able tocalculate its size, mass, number os stars etc etc. so far, how you claim you know its made by itself) is made by HIM only.

You made the sun, LOL.. OK I believe you, make another 1 for me
Cant make 2?? right?, make it appear from west instead of east for once.

I know because He told me that. No I dont read it from bible, I read it from Qura'n. Bible used to be true sometime ago. When it was God's word, not now.

Ok if Universe is not creation, tell me what it is?

Already told you about Bible, God sent prophets, then He stopped. The last was Prophet Muhammad(PBUH). Why God stopped? I can not question Him, it is His will. He does whatever He wants.
We both know what OMG stands for:) no argument on that

Amazing.... noonemakes the buds. Noone makes the universe, noone makes the trees, noone makes the oceans, noone makes the sun and the moon and stars and so on. Can that 'noone' ever make a car, a television, a radio.... too big for 'noone'. Ok how about a floppy disk, or a small screw. Tell me what you think.

I am not satisfied with your answer, what makes a living concious andfunctioning? Can you show me concious. Ok dont show, just define it to me, how big it is, what color, weight? everything your science can tell about it, pls tell me.

Why is it sometime we see those who have less life expectancy live longer than those who have more life exptancy? Why do people die at small ages (without any accident, attack etc.) and some live for much longer periods. And why does life end? Why among billions or perhaps trillions of living creatures there has been none at all who could have survive forever?
You are right we are only human, If its not God's doing, whos doing is it?

Already told you He has stopped sending prophets. His last prophet was Muhammad (PBUH) and everybody now has to follow him. This is God's decision. You can see magic for sure, ask some magician. My Allah is not a magician. He makes miracles. If you dont want to see or believe on them, you wont be able to see or believe.

Yes He can make such a heavy stone, that if He does not want be lifted by Him, wont be lifted. And in case He wants to lift it, He wont fail. Isnt that simple? or you find yourself lost? He can do whatever He wants brother, simple as that.

I already told you he is beyond any explanation. He is THE MOST PERFECT. MOST MERCIFUL, MOST COMPASSIONATE, Just believe on Him. A blind faith is all what is required.

Already apologized for pasting you comments.
God has always existed and will remain like that forever. You have also heard and read about God, but you dont believe on HIM. Is that double standard or you just believe what you like to believe and deny what you dont like.

Now, for once let us assume for the sake of argument, there is no God. I live my life thinking there is, and then i die. So what have i lost? Some pleasures of life perhaps, following a certain 'man made' religion, anything else you can name of? But if there is a GOD,(and certainly there is) and you live your life denying Him. Then when you die you will come to know GOD EXISTS, ANGLES EXIST, the DOOMS DAY EXISTS, HEAVEN AND HELL EXIST.
Tell me, where do you think you would end up??????
Are you really willing to play this game? Think again!

So you're one of the others who say follow religion just for sureness, 'cause if it exist and you didn't believe it's Hell.
Good Thing.
Ridiculous. These conversation are starting to get bored, you deny scientific proofs and ask for more.
And you creationists always throw rubbish and lies on science, while creationists assume they're scientists, uhm, good thing that one too.

If you dislike science so much, take a pike, undress yourself and go in some forest far from civilization to catch animals to live.

Oh my garfield, I'm really tired of what you say, really!

Xeedar, First of all I didnt say I dont like science. Teikloon said religion (religios leaders) caused wars on earth. I just tried reminding him of some facts. and as about the proofs. I didnt get no proof that God do not exist. I mean not being able to see Him or Hear from his is not something as solid as a proof is supposed to be.
Come up with something solid if you have, or start believing like I do.

No, 'cause you have no solid proof of god's existence. So I'll not believe. Easy.

belive in science , the science exists and it works on proves not in words but it's very possible that god exists

One who has given up the hope that God exists will never getto Him. One who keeps on looking for Him will find himself very close to Him.
As simple as that, we just dont have to look too far

This is a must see link for people like Xeedar & Teikloon
www.cosmicfingerprints.com/
I would like to have some comments

In my own personal life, I believe, for me that religion is the way in which I live my life .. everyday.
I am religious with every thought, action, value, attitude and activity.
I don’t just look for the absolution on Sundays and I don’t just pray on Sundays and it doesn’t matter which religion I’ve chosen to follow.
I do it, believe it, live it, breath it everyday .. I think that is what makes me religious.
And that is what brings me closer to my Creator.

No it hasn't really answered my queries, but I am extremely grateful to you for your words nevertheless.
You seem to gain a strength from your belief which can only be a good thing for you and anyone around you. I wish you well with it.
But I am also a believer in coincidence. Take the 46th Psalm (King James version): read the word 46th word from the front, and then the word 46th from the back. How about that?
I also had a time when I was a bit hard up, but then I got a tax rebate. But I was owed that money, so I don't attribute this to any intervention.
I have always thought that if I needed something; food, clothing etc, I should go out and get it for myself (legally you understand), and so I find it difficult to believe that it will be provided for me by any other means.
Thank you very much for your thoughts and I wish you well.

Just wanna add, my responds on other pages.

Who arrange 'coincidence'?

Hello friends there is no point in arguing. Argument never leads to conclusion. God is beyond logic. God says 'I am the conclusive truth of the logicians'.
So arguing is time waste. Also because if people who can argue like this can write nice article to triond and helium where you can earn money every time your article is read.
Don't think it is false. In helium you may not earn enough but in triond you can earn easily. Also in helium like here someone will report about your writings as objectionable or inappropriate or as useless and the management will delete them. While in triond once you submit the article (200 words is enough there) it will be there always earning you money.
I don't like many people captured by senses wasting time for useless arguments. Every moment of life is very precious.
If you want to know about God. Come out of your chair and go to temple where the presence of God will be more than your room.

By the way in US there is a great debate going between Darwin's evolution and Intelligent Design. According to Intelligent Design whoever says God doesn't exist is merely a fool. A man who has some intelligence never thinks that God doesn't exist.

I don't know if this is even the kind of response your looking for but honestly whats wrong with believing that there is a creator? For those who believe and for those that follow w/o being overbearing or relious freaks that go from person to person trying to turn everyone into their way of thinking - what harm do they do? I don't know if there is a god. But I do know that there has to be someone who started it all. And I know as a believer in that - that nothing but goodness has ever come from that. Because I choose to believe I'm a better person. Because I believe that there will be a better place for me here after - I've never choosen to do bad.

It's not wrong to believe in a creator and do good. It's not wrong to not believe in a creator and do good too. We only want to seek the truth. Explanation.

We will not do evil as it is unethical and morally wrong. That's all. You don't do evil becoz of religion/ or hell or bcoz of god. Which is somewhat threatened.

You can be good by believing god, we can be good without believing god. (which we think unnecessary)

Those who go person to person has no wrong, but please bring sufficient proof. They do not bring harm, they are only not convincing enough.

You are not sure that there is a god becoz there is no sufficient proof. But u say u believe there is someone who started it all. where's the proof? or it is simply guess or intuition. It is still not that convincing.

U do not do bad, becoz if you do, u might have a chance of going to hell(whether it exist or not). U juz dont do evil bcoz that's the safer side.

Hi guys, thanks for your thoughts:

SirPyan - nobody arranges coincidences. That's why they are coincidences???????????? Come on friend, we need COGENT argument and discussion.

Blastrail – Oh my oh my. You say :
“There is no point arguing” Are you serious???? Constructive argument and debate are the cornerstones of learning and education, the foundations of our political institutions, and the bedrock of scientific and ethical progress. I'm sorry, but I cannot take that seriously.
“Argument never leads to conclusion”. I think I am well within the bounds of real experience when I tell you flatly – you are WRONG. Where did you get that idea?
“God is beyond logic. God says 'I am the conclusive truth of the logicians'.” Well, I'm afraid that doesn't help much either.
If Intelligent Design (by the way, an overwhelming majority of the scientific community views intelligent design as unscientific, or as junk science) says “whoever says God doesn't exist is merely a fool”, then I rather think it should rename itself.
And lastly, please don't go advertising other websites here. This is not the place. I'm sorry, but in my view, this is an extremely poor post.

Krysha – You're right, it's not wrong to believe; not wrong at all.

Teikloon7 – Yep.

Hello, Steve. So many responses....wow. I feel sure that none have convinced you that God exists because God is within our own hearts. If allowed, both by you and God, you will know Him and that is the way it is. I truly hope that all would know Him and yet know that most people really couldn't care less about Him.
*sigh*
Since I last wrote, I've had more 'coincidences'...and my life remains riddled with them. So again I ask, at what point do those coincidences become more ? Is there a set number per life, per year, per day ? Is there a set number ? If so, once exceeded, are they reported ? Is this scientific ? Where does one draw the line between life, coincidence, miracle ? The questions are for you to answer - see, I just live. God has always been good to me and in 'miraculous' ways, and so I always expect miracles from God. He's very good at them.
:)
I have not read all the responses...there are so many. 465 the last I saw.....very good - sounds like people want to think. So, thank you, Steve, for starting this.

Thank you billey. Can you define coincidence?

I am really happy for you, and I wish you, your baby, and your family well. But this doesn't really prove any existance of god. There are plenty of babies who die.
Take care, and good luck.

what is zondis...I"m a nurse, I've never heard of that.

So doctors are useless? If there's a god to decide if we have to live or not...are then doctors just people who wastes energies?
I don't think so.
I'm sorry to be so rude, but I cannot accept people who says, after a hard and succesfull work of the doctors, that god helped them. They help people...nobody helps them.
Let's give to Caesar what is of Casesar.

I could be wrong, but possibly they meant "jaundice"?

if doctors are so great, y so many people are dying in hospitals. they are losing in saving so many lives? it is God's power that saves or kills.

Just to elaborate a bit on this. Many people confuse the concept of 'fate'. They thought that 'fate' refers to anything arranged by God. While this sentence is true, it has many meanings. Let's connect this with this situation.

Imagine, a doctor trying very hard to save a patient. His condition is quite chronic, there's a chance that he will die, but there's also a chance that he'll survive. OK, now imagine the doctor know about 'fate'.

What if 'fate' says "the patient will die"? Will the doctor work hard to save him? No, because even though he try hard, the patient will die.

What if 'fate' says "the patient will survive"? Will the doctor work hard to save him? Also, no. Why? Because he alreaady knew his patient will survive, even if he didn't do anything.

Understand what I mean? Only God knows your fate, we will never know. If someone said, "so it is meaningless for me to do anything, it's already been decided by fate", they are wrong indeed. Do you know your fate?

no but if it's written I don't need to struggle to reach something, 'cause it's already decided if I would reach or not.
Individual doen't mean anything in your belief.
I'm proud to be an individual, so I cannot agree with you.

I believe a doctor who saves a person is a doctor who saves a person, not a doctor who saves a person 'cause someone else decided that the person can be saved by the doctor!

THANKS.......

Well, that's what I'm trying to tell you. :D I'm not trying to force you to believe, I'm just explaining why people believe. If you don't wanna believe it, it's your liberty. ;)

Now I ask, why do you need to struggle to reach something?
Imagine this situation normally. A group of student would be sitting for exam. Would they pass the exam if they don't study? There is a big chance that they will fail. It would be a 'miracle' if they succeed.
Twist the situation. What if they decided to study? There is a chance that they will succeed, right? But, there is also a chance that they will fail, but the percentage of success is higher.

So the common action and and highest upcoming possibilities would be like this:
Study ---> Success
Not study ---> Failed

Now I ask you, if you want to succeed, will you study or not? Of course you will, right? Because the percentage is higher. This is 'fate'. We human don't know 'fate', that's why we must do what we thought right.

But, what if you failed? There must be a reason, only He knows. We are just human. Perhaps He has another path for you which is better? Only He knows. ;)

Then what abouth all the student which fails in exam and then suicide? Was it a better path fo them?
I think life is case, probability. For sure you can believwe in what you want, but I can't believe that if I studied I don't pass an exam at the University 'cause someone decided I hadn't to pass. I just didn't pass. I can be angry, or depressed, or just don't care. It's life, and life is the worst and most beautiful thing, so I accept it!

He he, then I think I better tell you this. :D Do you know that if that student fail in exam, he has many other options he can take instead of suicide? So what if he did commit suicide? Is it his 'fate' to die through suicide? The answer is: No. In 'fate' it's only written 'when' people will die, not the 'way' he die. See what I mean? ;) Most religions will say that they who commit suicide will go to hell, right? In our bare eyes, we see he commit suicide. But how do you know he will go to hell? We don't, because we are not God. We don't know, and we will not know. God is us, we are not God.

I forgot to add this a bit. I'm not blaming you, I know it's hard to understand, because you keep referring God as 'someone'. He's not just 'someone' you know, referring Him normally like that meaning you still connecting Him with 'normal being', although He's not a 'being' or 'creation'. Just remember some of the phrases I've been mentioning, you probably won't understand it now, but tomorrow or later, who knows? ;) God is life, life is not God. God is everything around us, everything around us are not God, God is us, we are not God. :D

I forgot to add this a bit. I'm not blaming you, I know it's hard to understand, because you keep referring God as 'someone'. He's not just 'someone' you know, referring Him normally like that meaning you still connecting Him with 'normal being', although He's not a 'being' or 'creation'. Just remember some of the phrases I've been mentioning, you probably won't understand it now, but tomorrow or later, who knows?;) God is life, life is not God. God is everything around us, everything around us are not God, God is us, we are not God.:D

Man, I dont get your... God is whatever, whatever is not god thing. please explain abit. Abit more sensible. You're saying like you're somekinda wiseman. :D

So explain to me wiseman, how can you be sure sometime tommorow we will understand? you're not making any sense. And we're still not convinced.

Most ppl juz say that god creating everything and nothing created god.. end of story!. Why not I say something created God.. which I call it 'Godo' and nothing created 'Godo' end of story! You can't just call end of story as you like.

It's like this, u and i agree that the earth exists. There is proof. We agree. Then we believed the universe exists. There is proof. We agree. NOw u say that there is god. But there is not proof. So we dont agree.

Dear teikloon, I have never force you to believe. :D Nobody, forcing anyone to believe or not here, it's your choice. BUT, there are reasons why people believe, and there are reasons why people don't believe. If you ask me why I believe, I already gave my answers (also please refer on my comment in another page of this discussion). I tried my best to explain. I am a normal human, I am not a prophet, my English probably got many errors, but I tried my best. If you don't understand what I am talking about today, you will probably (I said again, PROBABLY, I don't know, I'm not God) understand about it in the future, who knows right? :D Just don't stop seeking the answer. You need to 'twist' your mind a bit. :D :D

Then again, if it is so easy to explain, then all the people in this world would be a believer. ;) My advice is to ask around someone with higher knowledge about this, try finding any scholar or teacher or whatsoever around you if there's any. They might provide different opinions, but it will broaden your knowledge. Trust me, it very difficult to explain.

Adding some bit more:
A believer believe the concept of creation and creator. Cars were created by men. God is men, men are not God. Who created animals? Nature? God is nature, nature is not God. Then someone said "men created stories about God existence". Again, God are men, men are not God. Stone, sand, soil, tree, rain, water, bird, etc. etc. They are not God, God is them. :D :D

No, I don't think I will understand.
I've been a christian, 'cause I'm born in a christian family.
One day, growing, I started to ask me questions. I was believing just 'cause my society has told me to believe.
I was looking for answers, science has given me answers.
I became agnostic, now I'm starting to think like a total atheist, 'cause my studies are telling me truths that religions cannot give me, and the most important...there are proofs that catholic religion lies in the most part of its tales.

Hmm, same thing here.
As all atheist do. We were born in a religious family,
Being told what to believe. Science has give us answers.

Back to sir pyan. So i guess you are not someone who has 'higher knowledge' about about this ya?

Yeah, no one is forcing us to believe, we're just curious wanted to know the truth.

Also, Now that you've said it. I think what you're trying to say is that, god created things through us? Meaning that you are claiming that we have no free will?

Why must it be god that create the car through men? why not He create it by Himself?
Is He so incapable, that he must use us to make car? We dont have free will?

- If i want to open a door, i open the door with my own will. But Then you will say it's gods will. if i didn't open the door, you will say it's gods will too. So whatever i do it will be gods will huh? Well, you say it all :D

It's not easy you know. :D When someone started to understand a bit about this, he will have hard time to explain to other people. This is what occur now. I have the idea, but I have hard time to explain, it's too difficult. :D That's why I told what I can afford, then hoped someone will understand maybe in the future.

Nope, God creates things through us is 'partially' right. Human have no free will is wrong either. You see, that's why I said it's very hard to understand, but once you started to understand, you'll be saying "Wow, it's actually so easy!" :D Like I said in my comment (I think it's on page 12 or 13), you will never understand if you separate 'God' and treated Him like another third party. So, when you said God controls us, or anything around us, we separate God and expect Him to be other 'person' or 'power'. This is one main reason it's hard to understand. So then, we will probably say, "Then, aren't we God?" This is wrong either. God is everything, but everything aren't God.

Lemme give another situation, which involves 'terms'. For example, cat is an 'animal'. Is animal, a cat? Dog is an animal. Is animal, a dog? Fish is an animal. Is animal, a fish? Got something?

God is everything. From the first moment a baby was born to his/her death, from the faraway side of the universe to our planet, from everything we see and we can't see, from the mysterious super force that run the mechanism of solar systems to the smallest force of hatching eggs. From the moment I sat on my chair typing these sentences to the moment I press the button 'post comment'. :D From the start and to the end.

SirPyan is a little 'off the wall' to me also. But he is trying very hard to get his point across, so I commend him for that. The trouble I have with him is the same as I imagine all Atheists will have with him. Statements like:
"God is men, men are not God. Who created animals? Nature? God is nature, nature is not God", and "God is life, life is not God. God is everything around us, everything around us are not God, God is us, we are not God", and "But, what if you failed? There must be a reason, only He knows. We are just human. Perhaps He has another path for you which is better? Only He knows" - these are not really helping me understand why I should believe, they seem to be your views only SirPyan. Can you broaden your thoughts out in a more practical and logical manner to help us more?

He..he..he.. :D It's alright. Like I said, I don't try to convince you to believe, just explaining why some people 'believe'. :D Maybe later you'll understand, just don't stop searching. My ability is limited, so is my knowledge. But you know, I don't, believe just to follow other people. I'm born believer, but that is not an excuse for me to just follow blindly. It's not that I 'found' these things, but I started to 'understand'. You won't believe because maybe you don't 'understand' yet, well that's ok. ;) Just one thing though, you'll never understand if you seek the answer if your guidances are 'practical' and 'logical' manners ONLY. That's the clue.

The knowledge of human compares to God, is like "a drop of water in the vast ocean". Peace.

Dear Sirpyan, about your page 12 thing...


First of all,

Wind blows because of the heat from the sun and thus causes air movements. We can't see wind because it is moving particles of air. Air containing nitrogen oxygen and 1% of other gases. We know, coz bernoulli proved the air stream current and flow. If you do feel wind it's because these air remove water from your skin that makes you feel cold.

Second,
If i slap you in the face, you will feel pain. It is a big force of pressure exerted to your skin at an instant. Which then your senses in skin will send message to your brain telling that it hurts.

Third,
The universe is natural and there no one running it. It's natural. It's how the world is. you don't have to made up 'something' to explain that.

If you insist that there is something that is running it, God? then what is running god? you say no, stop at god, no one runs god. I say NO! stop at the universe. Nothing runs the universe.

Yes we cannot see time. Duh! Technically is a measurement of period.It is defined as the time taken by 9,192,631,770 cycles of radiation that comes from electrons moving between two energy levels of the caesium-133 atom. it's a measurement of period for the use of calculating rate. When will we die, we will know if we know the rate of deterioration of ourself. You can calculate when you die if you jump off a building. I can really calculate that for you. Just give me the height of the building and when you want to jump. :)

You cant ask WHY! the earth is not alive! it doesn't act like there's a need. It's appropriate if you ask why does the chicken cross the road. The chicken is alive. it may want to cross to the other side. You can't ask why the earth circles the sun as if there's a need or reason for the earth to do so. You're just playing with words.

This is the most terrible examples i've seen.
You're simply explaining things without even studying the real cause of it. People who have not studied science might have fallen for your.. you cant see wind, wind exist so god exist too THEORY!

WOW, you twist your view abit, you can understand the wind, the slap and time rather than people who research for many years. You're so clever. Gee, I guess, the universities should be closing soon :P

Teikloon, this is one of the best comments I've ever read on mylot (maybe the best) and you got a '+' and my respect :P

Pyan, the problem is not of misunderstanding your words, we understand them well.
The problem is we don't understand why you say those words if we have scientific proofs that they're not true.
And you're sure trying to be gentle, but try not to treat us like inferior people who don't understand, we are all discussing for reasons, with scientific proofs against pre-roman era beliefs. We will not understand in the future, 'cause we already understood. Most of us has been religios before choosing to be atheist, so we decided it for our free will. Most of religious people instead, has born religious, and remained it. There has to be a reason.

Teikloon, I did say that you won't find the answer like that. :D It's not something 'reality', yet, it is 'reality'. Of course I know why wind blows, why we feel pain, what is time, IF you asked in term of scientific terms and what human already know. I studied mechanical engineering for years, I'm not blind in science. We can't ask why the earth circles the sun, because we will not find the answer. And the earth is not 'alive', but that's only in term of human mind and knowledge. There are some questions of 'why' that will never be answered by human. I'm not playing with words. I'm just stating why I believe, did I asked you to believe? Did I sense a provocation here? =.="

Xeedar, I'm not treating you guys like inferior people. And I'm being gentle because that's my nature. If you asked why people believe, I've given some of the reasons. If the answer can easily be described with words, then like I said, all the people in the world would be a believer.

If you really want to find the answer, why don't you asked former non-believers. I'm sure the answer will varies, but hey, you'll probably come out with something.

Hi!

Glad to see u there.
Hmm, glad to know that you're not blind... in science.
Well, it's good that you 'know' why wind blows. So why did you mention you can't see wind before? You totally make yourself look like an unintelligent person. I'm so confused.
Yknow, saying things like we cant see wind 'thing' is kinda insulting both you and my intelligence dont u think? - not to mention misleading those who are uncertain what wind really is.

Well, we're not saying that you ask us to believe, we're just asking.
We're glad that you have explain your idea. Still, not good enough of a reason to make me, xeedar or stevew1805h believe. Not even a tiny little bit. :)

Come on, you can't just simply say there are some questions of 'why' that will never be answered. This is the problem with most theist. You just gave up. If the human still believed that the world is flat, and there will be a new sun coming up from the east everyday. You'll just stop there. Well, tht will never been answered? NO!

Listen to yourself.. It's not reality, yet it is reality?
How can it be yes and no at the same time?

Are you goin into the 'god is omnipotent, omniconcious and omnipresent' zone again?
God cant be not reality and yet reality. You're not talking logically.
The sentence itself is not right.

And lastly, if you say that it is so abstract it's beyond human comprehension, why do human acknowledge god in the first place? You won't even believe if u don't comprehend. If u believe without comprehending (so called faith). It seems to me you're just following blindly.

"Come on, you can't just simply say there are some questions of 'why' that will never be answered. This is the problem with most theist. You just gave up."

1. They who believe in something and never quit searching for the meaning of it.
2. They who conclude the searching and say "no such existence because there's no proof".

Now I ask you, which one from 1 and 2 above, gave up?

If I am following blindly, I won't even be here discussing and explaining as hard as I could about this matter. Honestly, I'm out of idea. I'm probably gonna make way for other to express themselves now. Like I said, I'm just stating reasons. Now you know why some people 'believe'. If you have any more question, why don't you ask someone like Hasan Din. Teikloon, I know you probably heard of him. I am what I believe, you are what you believe. Even a true believer continue to search, why not you as unbeliever search
as well to strengthen your belief that God not exist. Maybe you'll find the answer, maybe you won't. It's best if you try finding the answer not just in this tiny forum, there's a bigger world out there.

Yo, the gave up thing is about, people giving up searching for the why's. And you ppl gave up searching in the first place. While ppl are still studying about cosmology, how galaxies were formed and so on. Trying to prove how big bang happened. Yet some simply say, there are just some questions of why' that will never be answered?

In science we do make conclusions, which actually is temporary. If there are new findings. Like, oh.. the world is not flat. With logical explanations, we do agree of that discovery.
Science temporarily do find the term god absurd. Because it is too perfect and seem somewhat imaginary. Not real.. made up.

For now, as we know it, science may not prove god. Not even the tiniest proof of it's existence. The probability can be approximated to 0. Which is why we say it has no such existence. The probability of it is made up, is way higher to me as it may seem. Bibles can be misinterprated, may be wrongly translated. maybe added along the years. Not to mention it is man made. Human may make mistakes. Written by a messenger by god u say? To all that you know, you never doubt this messenger for even abit? Just because he made few prophecies correct, or he can do magic, splits the sea into two, haha. For all you know, that may also be made up isn't it? The chances of its flaw seems alot to me.

Of course this tiny forum can't provide answer. Im just looking for the slightest idea where to start. Afterall, this forum is worldwide isn't it. I don't hafta go all the way to pakistan to hear ones view.

Hasan din? Never heard of him!

Believers DO study. The only difference between them and unbelievers, is the conclusion. Unbelievers study trying to 'find out' about God. Believers study trying to 'understand' about God. That's the difference. If science can't prove the existence of God, then how come that some people who has actually contributed to science and technology in the past, and we're still using it today, are believers? 'Finding out' and 'understanding' are two different things. Ok, nobody gave up here. Just stating the method each side uses.

Never heard of Hasan Din? XD Why don't you try asking a Malay.

YO~
Now you are saying that you're trying to understand god? what happen to god is beyond comprehension?

I don't think we're finding God. Erm, to put it right, we're kinda proving you wrong. You can't even tell where to start. You just stubbornly tell that there is! You just saying things without any justifications. So, please justify your god! is it an energy? element? solid? If it is another dimension, justify that dimension! If it's imaginary, we'll just laugh.


*Just wana make things easier, let's start with your belief, Your god.
Is your god, omnipotent? omnipresence? omniconcious? Describe your god.*

Not to mention, there are other religions too yknow? You claim that your god is the only god... OMG..

People who contributed to science and technology have many reasons, they might need money to buy food. It might be their interest. And also, some religion ask them to work on science (yeah i know why, so that they got backup when science attack the reiligion :P_. People who contriubte to science are human. Which consists of many people. Some believers, some are not. So what's the big deal of people contributing to science are believers?

Again, you're just linking this ordinary facts as proof of god exist. (Even if believers contribute to science doesnt mean that god exist okay?).

Just becoz men has less one rib bone than the female, you have to made a story of adam and eve.. WOW~ how does that rib bone become female again? I would want to make one myself.

-not interested in hasan din anymore LOL-

Yea, yea, I'm stubborn, so do you. What's the difference? XD XD

Many people seem to have noticed I am a scientist and are crediting me with all the scientific knowledge ever know. This is, sadly, misplaced credit. But thanks for your confidence.

John 3, 16....For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son..that whosoever believeth in Him will have everlasting life.

LOTS OF GOOOD THOUGHTSSSSSSS

Unfortunately a lot of people believe the in the bible, even though it was written by man.

That is very very right . No one forced us to belive in nothing . But we will belive until something will prove that the thing witch is our belief is wrong or it not exist

That is very very right . No one forced us to belive in nothing . But we will belive until something will prove that the thing witch is our belief is wrong or it not exist

But I DO believe in myself. Despite a not very pleasant start, I have done some things of which I am truly proud. But I also believe I have managed to do these things from myself. I have not detected any divine intervention at all.
Thanks for your view.

yes that is really good and thank you for your immediate response.What i feel is lots of people who approach to divinity is because they feel themselves as unholy or as sinners.And they badly want to change that.Thats y they seek god

Controversial!

haha contoversial.asksome one y they seek god.eventually it will lead to what i said.People usually turn to god when they get something or when they want something

ya u r right..we remember him at that instance only.

KOOOOL COMMENT

I would have thought some people would have taken exception to the comment that people only turn to god when the receive or want something.
Is god something one can dip into only when it suits us, or is it a full time job?

Thats what we usually do, turn to Him only when we need Him.
But God is really a Full Time job!!

Perhaps it was a mistake, but otherwise, why just copy and paste the previous post?

NICE COMMENT

God it's perhaps a spirit or something

hehe just one qn.dont take it seriously

all u knowthat ur dad is ur dad isbecause ur mom says he is.So y do u believe that?

that was only an arguement.i hope u understand

Don't worry, I'm not offended.
Besides taking my parents word for it, I know my dad is my dad because me and my brother look like him and we have certain mannerisms like him. I've also seen my birth certificate and my parents marriage certificate that say they were married when I was born. There are photos of him holding me as a baby, we have the same blood-group too.
What you say is a bit silly really. If I ever doubted that I could have DNA Tests done to prove it one way or another. This discussion is about there being no proof either way that god is there or not.

now i really forgot about DNA Tests.That is a proof.I do agreethat their is no proof for god.And ia kinda atheist.Now iam not a true atheist,but kind of

GOOOOD QUESTION MATE LOTS OF PEOPLE ARE COMMING TO ANSWER

Thanks Mr Rhinoboy, I appreciate your comments and views. But
kpisgod - what has Mr Rhinoboy's parentage got to do with anything???????????????????

Thanks to everyone else too at this time. Keep it coming, I think I could even turn this into a book, the profits from which I will, of course, share.

hey boss it was just an arguement about why he doesnt believe in god-because of lack of proof

like your answer,,.........

This is what I arrived at also, skimming various responses. Why ask the question to begin with?

The reason I asked the question is as follows: I do not believe in a god of any kind, nor do I believe in life after death, heaven etc, as I have no experience of these things and, despite looking, can find no evidence for them. However, millions of people do and have done through the ages. As I don't have a monopoly on all knowledge (would that I had), I thought I would gather the views of others to see if I could improve my own view on what is, undoubtedly, a world question.
Thanks for asking.

A good response Steve. You make your point succintly.

Thank you gifana.

This post provides no evidence, no supporting arguments, nothing to convince someone who has asked for clear, reasonable responses to a serious question. Moralising and telling someone they should believe in God is not reasoning.

I'm afraid I really must agree with sarilynne. Further, I do not need to believe in god to be a good person myself. I had a pretty poor childhood and was not really exposed to discussions of right or wrong. But, since then, I like to think I have created a good set of morals and values for myself. So a belief in god is not a pre-requisite for goodness, nor does a belief in him mean you are good. Look at all the religious extremists for example.
NB. I use the word 'good' with the generally accepted definition of such – law-abiding, kind, loving etc etc etc

My dear friend. I'm going to walk you through something that blew my mind. I am currently a seminary student studying for full time ministry. I've alway's kind of been lost with the whole creation thing. You know the fact that with carbon dating and such that the earth isn't more then like 10,000 years old but what about dinosaurs. Threw my studies I've found that in reality Adam and Eve weren't the first humans. They were the first in God's image. The Bible talks about a preadamite civilization. That Satan had dominion over the Earth before Adam was ever around. Therefore the Earth's age begins to line up with a scietific timeline. Also just because I know you have amazing respect for the old school scientists like Newton, and Plato, and Galilie. They all insisted that they had to have recieved some kind of revelation to know the things they knew. And when it comes down to the fact of not being able to see God.......I've seen God's work, I have nothing to gain by lying to prove my point but I've seen awesome works of God, people healed. Lastly I want to leave you with this, can you see your brain, smell your brain, taste your brain, how about hear your brain. And I know you can't feel your brain. But you know its there. I know that Gods here even thou I can't see him.

Your name suggests that your parents are Christians. Well, that is no matter. But that you have desired as to why you should believe in God ?

Those ploughing in the field like the poor farmers of India need a yoke and oxen. You are in an advanced country and you would go for a tractor. But as a scientist you need to plough in to time and search for valid reasons why you should believe in God. Unfortunately, you are a Scientist on the ground. Take your chance to visit the space and you will find out that the Mighty Scientist (read the Almighty God) who created such an elaborate masterpiece as the universe with thousands of galaxies and planets orbitting the sun or many such centre pieces of the like of sun with the vast stretch of sky, with the day, night and the different seasons doing its round to make you go through a day, night, month and years and this going on for centuries and the humans taking birth and dying, the daily miracles taking place and even water going up in vapour to return in the form of rain etc etc should make you believe that the architect who created all this had a specific aim in view. Well, he who ploughs the land also had a mind to reap a harvest. And the harvest is for the upkeep of his family and himself. So too, you and me and the whole humanity have been created by God with a specific purpose. The ultimate end ie. Eternity and Heaven. Whether you believe it or not, I feel it expedient to inform you that, time will not wait for anyone. One day you will also have to leave this world. Is death the ultimate ? There must be some ultimate winners and losers. You have been misled by Satan who is labouring day in and day out to distract your mind away from God. For satan, it is now or never. Never would be too late and hence the attempt to snatch people away from God. Here I must add that you may be living a life fully happy to your heart’s content but without any bridle, so the horse too speeds into the horizon without any aim. It is up to you to accept the controls of the bridle and live a life within the limits to which a human should limit himself. Even the gun-trotting terrorists are running amock feel complacent butchering humans. But one day we all will have to answer the Supre Being the Almighty who so lovingly gave us this life and then He will pronounce the reward according to our merits. Have you retreated into your actual life ? Are you living a proper life, a righteous life or are you funloving and living a life of a selfish, greedy, sexy life with no controls over your senses, your mind and heart ? God forbid, what if you were to die tonight will your scientific knowledge stand you in good stead ?

God created us all and gave us a free will to live the life to our heart’s content. But the same God will ask for an account of the life we lived. If were lived well, then we shall be rewarded with heaven, otherwise we shall perish in hell – or whatever the punishment that God may give. If ever you were condemned by God and God sends you to hell, and you try pleading for another chance ? Has any dead person ever come alive ? You are running the race but the result will be attained only at the end – end of time ? But those who are recklessly running through life are ruining their future reward that God has kept in store for us all ! In Latin I woud say “Bene currunt, sed extra viam” – They are running well, but out of the way (track)”. At the end of time, when your own physique fails you and you will be gasping for breath, will you feel that all your scientific knowledge can provide you with one only breath – just one second ? “It is appointed unto man, once to die, and after this the judgement”. Are you ready for the judgement or do you think that God will give you another chance to live ? Be assured, the judgement of the Supreme being who created the entire universe will sound very harsh for you. People at the end of time automatically feel a remorse of conscience for the utter disregard of spirituality and God. Some just lie in bed never to rise again. In such a situation can you allow yourself to be swayed by your own fits and tastes and leave the rest for destiny ?

Just do not imagine that the whole world chanting hymns and praise of the Almighty could be just an outcome of their own sentiments or inclinations. They all feel their own helplessness in the eyes of God. So too you must accept that “To every man there openeth a high way and a low and the high soul climbs the high way but the low soul gropes the low, And the rest on the misty flats go to and fro, but to every man there openeth a high way and a low and every soul decideth the way his soul shall go”. Tell me, where will your body go to after death, that if you do not believe in the soul ?

You may draw up a Chart with an indepth analysis of your own life, the way you lived, whether in sinful activities like that of a wayward person with all types of vices or like a truthful person. And judge yourself whether on the day of judgement would you stand with the flock of God or of the Devil ? It is up to you to believe but whether you believe or not, that cannot deter Death from taking hold of any human and may be even without notice ?

Just to answer the question: about the heavy rock that god couldn't lift. God is all possiblities; lives outside of our physics, mathematics, dimensions, time, space...anything that we would use to meausure him by. Are we so arrogant to think that a simple paradox could stop God? Oh boy...the fridge can't be open and closed at the same time....now we've done it. Boy we sure stumped God on this one. What a ridiculous notion! Here...I'm not God, but I already solved this one...it's perception. Ever drawn a box and shaded one side. One way you look at it makes it seem as if it's inside out, and the other way makes the box seem, well...a box. Two different answers for the same problem. A paradox? Think of God as a being who changes things simple by his focused awareness. We, as two dimensional people live in the world of the the paper drawing. We can't do what God can do, but we try to measure what is possible for him by our own standards?
On the other hand. It's really convienent to say God can do anything, even though we have no direct knowledge of how he works. Simply because we don't understand his ways, we sit there and say he can do anything. But, we can't even begin to measure and see if this is true! It's like flower saying, it's amazing...he can walk, I can't walk, he can talk, I could never talk, he takes care of me, if I don't grow a certain way he will pull me out by the roots...he must be God...he must know everything, and be able to do everything, and be everywhere! So, we as human beings who don't understand God, make a blanket statement and then fall back on that blanket statement to keep from having to explain how we came to it by saying, because he's God and he knows, controls, is and always will be everything!

How about this: Since it's evident that no one here is capable of unraveling this for you, might I suggest a different tact? Why don't you use your scientific mind and abilities to help you solve this? Try an experiement where you follow the bible's commands and ask for Jesus to be let into your heart, and all that. Because, apparently, there will be a great change for you should you do this. What greater faith is there than to act in such a way as if something really were true? So, for thirty days, act as if God is real, and do your very best to know him or believe in him. If he were really an alright kind of guy, he would know that you're trying your best and no one is perfect. I think if he existed, he would be happy that you devoted so much time to try and have a relationship with him. If by the end of the thirty days, you still don't have an answer, try something else. What could it hurt?
I live my life this way....only I use meditation instead of prayer, although, that would probably help. I don't necessarily believe in the whole jesus sacrafice, judgement thing, but I do believe in universal forces as having an underlying sentient and compassionate bent towards us. My own coincidences are too numerous to think of lightly. So, try it! Maybe you'll be surprised, or maybe you'll discover a different path, but whatever happens, at least you'll be taking action and your intention will give you some kind of measurable results. I applaud your search...shows that you have an open mind and haven't been blindsided by a feeling of being too intelligent to quest for your own truth. I wish you the best...Dave

Well, I have to say, I have never (let alone on a daily basis) seen a miracle, although I imagine it depends on how you define that word. But I can tell you I see war, death, destruction, assasination, famine, crime, and disease EVERY SINGLE day on the news.

There are those that believe that giving birth is a "miracle". Have you seen a child being born? Could you accept this as a "miracle".

Not really. There are biological reasons for it. If it is a miracle, it's a very common one. Also, what if the child being born was Adolf Hitler? Is that such a miracle?