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Refutation of current religions X; the Dead Sea Scrolls  email this discussion to a friend?

myLot reputation of 37/100. Gnosisquest (777) 5 years ago

Instead of tackling the individual prophets I feel it would be far better to look at the material recovered from the caves near the Dead Sea.

Carbon dating along with the coins discovered makes it clear that the deposits were made in three different stages.

The first deposit was the impending attack by Pompey in 63 BCE.
The second was at the conquest by Herod in 37 BCE.
The third was at the first Jewish revolt of 68 CE.
Material also includes what was found from the Bar Kokhbah revolt of 135 Ad.
The material which I will refer to is mainly from "The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible" by Abegg, Flint and Ulrich.

Our current Bibles have all been translated from the Masoretic texts, that is the case whether it was Judaism or Christianity, it all came from this codex known as "The Leningrad Codex", written in 1008 AD. The other existing important manuscript in existence is the Aleppo Codex from 925 AD.

The rumor that the Dead Sea Scrolls were from the Essenes are bogus; there is not an expert today which disputes the fact that these caves were employed by the Rabbi's to preserve their documents when Jerusalem was threatened.

The Dead Sea Scrolls contain all the biblical books with the exception of Esther (Ishtar). All the biblical books from the Leningrad Codex and the Aleppo codex are far longer than the same books from the DSS. To the original Judaic material have been added extensive glosses to make it all more palatable. The one exception to this is the Psalms which are more in number even though some of our current psalms are missing.

Two of the most important manuscripts to the Israelites of 2000 years ago are missing from today's bibles. One of these manuscripts, "The Books Of Enoch" was a part of the Christian Bible until about 600 years ago when it was removed from the canon due to its absurd notions about earth, the sun, god's containers of rain, snow and ice and other things. The one aspect of Christianity which still is derived from these books is the legend about Heaven.

The one book which by far had the most copies and would thus have been most important was "Jubilees".

When it comes to prophets Isaiah would have to be the most important document. I know some theologians stated that if we desired to know what the Isaiah document from the DSS said we could just read the Bible. This was stated before the religious community became aware that they would have to release to the public the content of the scrolls.

1QIsa was the earliest manuscript, written possibly as early as 125 BCE. From this first manuscript buried at 63BCE to the manuscript buried in 37 BCE to the one of 68 CE and finally the manuscript from Masada about 135 CE we get a clear picture of how Judaism evolved over these years. This evolution witnessed in practically all the material is indicative of the fact that 2000 years ago Jewry was in its formative years.

One other puzzling aspect noted with the DSS was the fact that even the manuscripts written in Greek did not conform to the LXX version of the OT also known as the Septuagint. This indicates that the LXX version was written about 350 CE rather than 350 BCE as today's church would like to have found.

These manuscripts list every important Israelite, every self appointed prophet and every revolutionary individual. These manuscripts list every noteworthy event in Israel up until 135 AD and there is no sign anywhere of any Jesus. There is a person which can be identified as Paul and another who would be John the Baptist but no Jesus.

The only messianic character which can be found from any of the manuscripts was Elisha from 2 Kings.

It is obvious that if a person had existed which performed just a small fraction of the things bestowed upon the Jesus figure he would have been found in the DSS manuscripts.

As I can't cut and paste I won't bother with examples; if you desire some examples of the contradictory biblical message 2000 years ago let me know.

These documents confirm the suspicion that Jewry practiced then and today are very different. The beliefs we thought they had are not correct. The documents also signify the late development of Jewry and give further credibility to Gmirkins theory that Genesis and Exodus came from the histories of Berossus and Merneptah of about 275 BCE.

Since everything discovered refutes the possibility that Judaism has it right do you think there is any person that has the right to teach this material as fact?

Do you think we would have been better off if this material was still unknown?

Ras


 

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michelledarcy (4379) response was accepted on 3/10/2007.
denotes best response, click it to go to the best response.
tags:  bible versions, dead sea scrolls bible, evidence versus beliefs, historical jesus, nice discussion
 
1. myLot reputation of 87/100. michelledarcy (4379)   ranked 383 out of 6,501 in religion   5 years ago

I am pretty sure a lot of Christians would prefer if there was no evidence to suggest that their sacred bible might not be the complete truth.
I was in a church this morning and was going to ask them a few questions that I am interested in but as they are friends as well it is difficult to approach it in a tactful way, so I might put them up here later.
It might be interesting to see what you have to say about them!


myLot reputation of 37/100. Gnosisquest (777)  5 years ago

I'm looking forward to it Michelle:

I noticed a long time ago that Christians do tend to take offence at being asked certain questions. They don't have any desire to follow a false teaching; it just makes everything so much easier.

Ras

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2. myLot reputation of 78/100. jricbt (1177)   ranked 651 out of 6,501 in religion   5 years ago

Very nice text, as the others in the series.

Since I was out of mylot because of Brazil´s Carnival I will read it (all the series, today).

Very good job.

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3. myLot reputation of 58/100. Thomas73 (598)   ranked 957 out of 6,501 in religion   5 years ago

To me, Jesus has always been some mythical character in the same vein as Robin Hood or William Tell. A single character created by several stories about various people, either real or imagined.

Here is a fairly good web page I found: http://nobeliefs.com/exist.htm
The conclusion is pretty good in my opinion, and I'd like to quote a part of it:

"Of course a historical Jesus *may* have existed, perhaps based loosely on a living human even though his actual history got lost, but this amounts to nothing but speculation. However we *do* have an abundance of evidence supporting the mythical evolution of Jesus. Virtually every detail in the gospel stories occurred in pagan and/or Hebrew stories, long before the advent of Christianity. We simply do not have a shred of evidence to determine the historicity of a Jesus 'the Christ.' We only have evidence for the *belief* of Jesus."

I think it sums it up quite nicely.


myLot reputation of 37/100. Gnosisquest (777)  5 years ago

Thank you Thomas, it is a good summation of what happened.

Ras

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4. myLot reputation of 90/100. steerpyke (295)   ranked 166 out of 6,501 in religion   5 years ago

usual excellent work, will be adding this to the rest of the series.

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5. myLot reputation of 73/100. TheGreatWhiteBuffalo (1509)   ranked 572 out of 6,501 in religion   5 years ago

Okay, I read this again, and this time I have to ask, how do we know that the scrolls aren't created to obscure particular text and omit any wording or working of Jesus, you say they talk of every self proclaimed prophet, including John the Baptist and Paul and yet no Jesus? That leaves us with two conclusions to me made, Jesus was expunged or added.

I see you taking the path that Jesus was added... How do you reconcile that with the Magdalene Gospel?

Am I following too close or not close enough?


myLot reputation of 37/100. Gnosisquest (777)  5 years ago

Gary; have a look at what I wrote about the Gnostics here: http://www.mylot.com/w/discussions/810132.aspx

Ras

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6. myLot reputation of 91/100. flowerchilde (8018)   ranked 223 out of 6,501 in religion   5 years ago

the new 'gospels' are

THE NAG HAMMADI LIBRARY:

"The Nag Hammadi library (popularly known as The Gnostic Gospels) is a collection of early Christian Gnostic texts discovered near the town of Nag Hammâdi in 1945. That year, twelve leather-bound papyrus codices buried in a sealed jar were found by a local peasant named Mohammed Ali. The writings in these codices comprised fifty-two mostly Gnostic tractates (treatises), but they also include three works belonging to the Corpus Hermeticum and a partial translation / alteration of Plato's Republic. The codices are believed to be a library hidden by monks from the nearby monastery of St Pachomius when the possession of such banned writings denounced as heresy was made an offense. The zeal of Athanasius in extirpating non-canonical writings and the Theodosian decrees of the 390s may have motivated the hiding of such dangerous literature.

The contents of the codices were written in Coptic, though the works were probably all translations from Greek. The best-known of these works is probably the Gospel of Thomas, of which the Nag Hammadi codices contain the only complete text. After the discovery it was recognized that fragments of these sayings of Jesus appeared in manuscripts discovered at Oxyrhynchus in 1898, and matching quotations were recognized in other early Christian sources. Subsequently, a 1st or 2nd century date of composition circa 80 AD for the lost Greek originals of the Gospel of Thomas has been proposed, though this is disputed by many if not the majority of biblical matter researchers. The once buried manuscripts themselves date from the **3rd and 4th centuries."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nag_Hammadi_library

-----------------
THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS:

"The Dead Sea scrolls (Hebrew: ?????? ?? ????) comprise roughly 825-872 documents, including texts from the Hebrew Bible, discovered between 1947 and 1956 in eleven caves in and around the Wadi Qumran (near the ruins of the ancient settlement of Khirbet Qumran, on the northwest shore of the Dead Sea) in the West Bank. The texts are of great religious and historical significance, as they are practically the only known surviving Biblical documents written before AD 100."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_sea_scrolls

and..

"The Scrolls can be divided into two categories—biblical and non-biblical. Fragments of every book of the Hebrew canon (OLD TESTAMENT) have been discovered except for the book of Esther.

5. There are now identified among the scrolls, 19 copies of the Book of Isaiah, 25 copies of Deuteronomy and 30 copies of the Psalms .

6. Prophecies by Ezekiel, Jeremiah and Daniel not found in the Bible are written in the Scrolls.

7. The Isaiah Scroll, found relatively intact, is 1000 years older than any previously known copy of Isaiah. In fact, the scrolls are the oldest group of Old Testament manuscripts ever found.

8. In the Scrolls are found never before seen psalms attributed to King David and Joshua.

9.There are nonbiblical writings along the order of commentaries on the OT, paraphrases that expand on the Law, rule books of the community, war conduct, thanksgiving psalms, hymnic compositions, benedictions, liturgical texts, and wisdom writings."
http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html

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