Paternity Fraud - Crime, Non-Crime, Don't Care or "HA HA" -_-
By theprogamer
@theprogamer (10532)
United States
December 7, 2007 12:55pm CST
Well the subject of this one should spell it all out. Probably 120% discussion or its probably my painting a bullseye on myself. I want some thoughts on paternity fraud. For those that don't know, its simply the wife shacking up with a different guy, having his kid and trying to pass it off on another guy (typically the original boyfriend/husband/significant other).
Just want your thoughts on it. Many courts don't even recognize the term, even though a google search can pull up at least 50,000 hits on it (along with other sites and their links).
As for the event itself, I already know the child will be messed up from this if it plays out in the worst ways. Its terrible some families and parents do this and I feel sorry for children who go through or have gone through the identity/self aspect of this. I also know there are fathers who don't care if there is a biological link or not and they'll still be a parent. It is interesting though that plenty of states still assign the role despite protest, despite what happened... Here's what else sets me off. There are situations where the dad tries to take care of the kid, but the mother leaves him, takes the kid(or kids) and shacks up with the biological father (or some other guy). The original sucker, I meant guy, ends up with child support charges and is not allowed to see any of the kids again. And alot of this is all based on archaic maritial sanctity assumptions, ones that don't even fit the present world. Basically its a no-choice, no-win situation in general.
What's way worse than this is the lack of recognition of this subject. This is a serious tresspass on both the frauded and the child, yet the only real rhedric is on what will happen to the child. Its all silent on the side of the frauded "dad". So many excuses are thrown out or at times shaming tactics are used.
Flip the gender perspective in all of this and you get a much different situation
there excuses for the frauder woman or silence on the matter,
if the mother doesn't want to be a parent she doesn't have to,
if a woman is violated or trespassed against it is noted and justice is sought
But behold, the same isn't extended to men in matters like this.
But back to reality, this subject is more of a head in the sand situation. Or some say "he earned it". Pathetic. If its crimes and many other situations, do people say "they earned it"?! Most sane people do not!
Here go a few links for examples, stories, thoughts, etc
http://glennsacks.com/blog/?p=1442
http://fathersandfamiliesblog.org/?p=24
http://mensnewsdaily.com/2007/12/06/what-rights-do-victims-of-paternity-fraud-have-in-massachusetts/
http://glennsacks.com/blog/?p=733
http://mensnewsdaily.com/archive/g/gay/02/gay120602.htm
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20050831-000007.html
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48871
http://www.glennsacks.com/duped_dads_bill.htm
So what do you think?
Is this a crime or not?
Is it a sick thing to do to a person?
Do you not care (many don't so this answer wont surprise me)
Or is this a "ha ha" moment/"scumbag earned it" moment
5 people like this
10 responses
@foxyfire33 (10005)
• United States
7 Dec 07
I would call it a crime AND a sick thing to do to a person. S/o's cousin was sort of in a similar situation as far as questionable paternity only in his case things went in his favor and both questionable babies turned out to be his so his support of them was justified in the end despite his grumblings about it before he knew the babies were his.
Anyway...I don't understand why these women aren't being charged with fraud and how they are getting away with it. I couldn't even get support from the biological fathers so it really infuriates me that I had to struggle while these other women were abusing the system. I like the comment made on your first link about what if married couples started going after random women for child support. That surely would count as fraud so why isn't going after random men?
2 people like this
@theprogamer (10532)
• United States
8 Dec 07
The legal system is warped (and I think I'm putting it lightly). Plus thanks to societal mindsets not only is it easier going after some men for their paternity crimes... its also "the right thing". Giving the topic I presented any consideration... to some its not worth it, to others it doesn't exist... its nuts.
@UnselfishShellfish (1306)
• United States
7 Dec 07
I fully support the men in this situation. If the women weren't so devious, this would have never happened.
In some cases, the women were trying to play some mind game, or even if they were innocent and honestly thought the baby was her husband/boyfriend's baby and not the man she slept with, it still hurts two people: The baby and the non-biological father. The non bio father has grown to love and raise the child and when he finds out the baby isn't his, how does he feel? Furthermore, how would he feel if the mother said no more visitation with the kid because he's not yours.
Some women use DNA testing as a way to get money out of their 'baby daddy' even though they have no needs or desires for the father to see the kids. I also think that if you pay child support, you aught to have the option to see your kids unless the courts say otherwise. There is more than one woman in this world who tell their childrens' father to pay up but he still can't see the kids.
Myself being a woman, I can't imagine what that's like.
2 people like this
@theprogamer (10532)
• United States
7 Dec 07
Those were great posts you two. I did touch on a bit of this and you guys did well presenting your sides and relevant cases. I'm looking at 120% truth here and I'm very glad you guys did respond to this. I forgot about that part of the DNA testing though Unselfish, total truth there, it works both ways. I also dislike how selfish and well pretty much sickening things get in this matter overall. I've seen and read cases... so much damage has been done and then there are people excusing it, or worse encouraging it. /extended facepalm...
Thanks again, great responses and discussion.
2 people like this
@jennybianca (12912)
• Australia
10 Dec 07
Without reading the numerous links on this topic, I can still give a suitable response, as this was a hot issue in our family recently.
Quite simply, my husband had always suspected that his son, now 14 years, was not his own. His first wife (now ex) slept around before, during & after their marriage, including at the time the boy was conceived.
Hubby often thought about having a DNA test numerous times & finally did so a few months ago at a cost of $450.
The boy is his.
Nevertheless, this test raised the issue of what hubby would do if the result came back negative. In Australia, men are attempting to sue the ex where it is proven that a child is not theirs. There is at least one support group with political clout for this purpose.
My husband would definitely have sued if the boy had not been his, without a doubt, with my full support. I can not stand women who do this kind of cheating.
Regarding the childs rights... my step son asked at least twice for DNA tests, as he had figured out what his mother was like... now he denies having requested this.
In any case, there is a common belief, which I support, that every child has a right to know their biological origin.
@jennybianca (12912)
• Australia
10 Dec 07
Thats a social question that would require a great deal of research from the experts. One of my theories, is that kids are more aware of their rights now, but unfortunately have even less maturity & social skills to deal with these complex issues of paternity, step children, waring ex parents, etc.
As for the Paternity case now in our courts, let me tell you that if you have any Aussie friends who are thinking of pursuing this line of action, to get their DNA test done NOW. The Federal Government were/are attempting to legislate that Paternity cases in Court not be allowed at all & that DNA results (if the testing is still allowed) not be used in Court.
As we have just had a change of Federal Government, I am unsure at this stage if this will be pursued.
But any Aussie out there reading this, better get your DNA teats done now, & if negative, get your Court Case started.
There are online sites in Aust. where you can order DNA tests for less than $400.00. There is a MensConfraternity site that has a wealth of info. There is also a Step Parents Support Group (online).
PM me if you want the links, or should I put them all here?
@theprogamer (10532)
• United States
10 Dec 07
Thank you Jenny for sharing that experience with me. It does expand upon what I know and I believe I know about the lawsuit situation going on in Australia (thank you very much though for confirming and clearing it up!)
Part of me has a heavy heart over the situation thanks to your story. Even the kids are going around questioning paternity and asking for tests. I think that along with everything else in discussion paints a very grim picture. One has to wonder how it really got like this, why it stays and what is yet to come.
1 person likes this
@theprogamer (10532)
• United States
12 Dec 07
Jenny you are indeed permitted to post those links here if you want so it can be a benchmark for future reference. In my opinion every bit can at least help.
1 person likes this
@RosieS57 (889)
• United States
13 Dec 07
Non-crime. All a man has to do is have Family Court order a paternity test. The mother must produce the child in question so the child casn have a blood test. The mother can't be physically coerced into giving a sample, but the alleles between the male and the child will tell the tale, whether actually his or not.
And since it is Family Court, which is Civil, it's not Criminal, by definition.
There can be no fraud if handled the right way, which I just spelled out.
No biggie, truly. Father's Rights groups really do blow it out of proportion.
On the day my youngest's paternity was settled (I did volunteer my blood, but wasn't required to) so was Tom Jones's and his daughter right on the same floor at the same time. :-)
My youngest's bio-dad was determined with 99.76% certainty. That's purer than Ivory Soap. The mother can also bring suit to determine paternity...in my case the bio-dad wanted to claim my son as his, and he is his.
Like I said..not a biggie.
@theprogamer (10532)
• United States
16 Dec 07
I believe its becoming more of an issue. I've had to deal with cases (even one in family) like this. A lot of hell occurs because of it. There are men who simply don't doubt paternity but through some event the doubt arises, plenty of times it happens when said time limit expires. Things only work the "right way" some of the time, not always. You get situations where mom can assign one dad for child support, then run off with the real father. You get other situations where the non-biological father wants to be the dad regardless, but mom doesn't and she keeps the kid away from him (after the child support is established). Then there are also bogus court decisions, government error that also occur like some of my links had. Just note, the courts aren't perfect with this and some people do get screwed over. In any case, victims are here be they children, husbands, fathers.
@Adoniah (7512)
• United States
7 Dec 07
The whole business is horrible. First to the unsuspecting man who is either "trapped" into fatherhood or proudly thinks he is a father and then at some point the truth comes out. No matter what, the woman can and should never be trusted again. The courts will never catch up to the reality of life. They just figure they are going to make someone support this child and they stick with the archaic way and "stick" it to the father or nonfather as the case may be.
Then the child is hurt, because he is trapped in the middle being used as a tool to get the money. He may never know who his biological father is . He may have many "uncles" as they are sometimes called.
One thing that is changing however is parental visitation. If the father wants to see the child, he can see the child. Even if there has been acusations made of some form of abuse they now have supervised visitation in most states that allow visitation in these cases. And if the parents go through classes, they can eventually get passed the supervised visitation and have regular visitation because the courts know that a lot of things are said during divorces and separations that may not be true.
1 person likes this
@pastorkayte (2255)
• United States
8 Dec 07
I think it is pretty bad for a woman to knowingly deceive a man into thinking a child is not his. However I also believe that it is as bad on the other side of the spectrum. When a man leads a girl to believe he is single and has an affair with her, she gets pregnant and he tells his wife its not his, or my favorite is she slept with everyone. Then the girl must raise her child alone. I know DNA tests solve that problem, but where does the girl get the money to have the court order the test and the money to pay for it.
1 person likes this
@theprogamer (10532)
• United States
8 Dec 07
Interesting scenario. I think there are family courts, local/county programs, health departments that help out with that. It does vary with where a person is, but I know that how some of the situation plays out.
@cblackink (969)
• United States
13 Dec 07
No one deserves to be lied about, especially in such a serious situation. Maybe (I don't know) some of these women really don't know who the father of the baby is (which shocks me), and they're just looking for a man to foot the bill. It's true there are men who are scumbags, but there are women who are too.
@Aussies2007 (5336)
• Australia
8 Dec 07
Interesting question...
It can be regarded as a fraud... so it should be regarded as a crime. And when you consider the cost of bringing up a child... it rates with the biggest crimes of obtaining money by deception.
However... the reason it is not a crime is because the law wants to protect the child first. If the law punish the mother... the one who will suffer the most will be the child.
But this problem could be solved by forcing the real father to pay for the child. The law could easily make the father pay if it wanted to. It actually could be a good thing... as it might makes men think twice about sleeping around with any woman they can get into their bed.
I would not be too concern at the prospect of destroying relationship or families... because if cheating has occured... those relationships are base on a lie anyway and are not worth saving.
What will it do to the child? Very little if all this mess is sorted out before he/she is 1 year old. The child will adapt to its situation as it does not know any better. But it would be devastating for a child over 4 to discover that his father is not his father.
Problem is that people are selfish... and many of them will be more concern about themself than they are for their child. So women will continue to lie about it until they get caught.
There is also the problem of having one or more children with your husband... and then having one through cheating with another man. In that case... no matter what you do... the children will suffer... which is why people prefer to keep it all a big secret for the sake of the children. It is by no mean an easy situation to solve.
@theprogamer (10532)
• United States
8 Dec 07
Alright Aussies, good so far. And yes the child should be protected. Very well done on your case. I still think this is a gross situation. I say its still fraud, its still disgusting and there are plenty of cases where guys lie (about contraception, about their paternity, etc.) and those are crimes. However, none really consider the situation I originally presented and the travesties that occur (you even pointed them out along with me and plenty of responders here).
I'll say this as a close. I know guys who've been nice and screwballed by this whole thing, there's no support period. It just makes my heart heavy seeing what I've seen and knowing more is out there. I'll agree with your last comment too, it isn't easy to solve.
@anniepa (27955)
• United States
8 Dec 07
Yes, in my view it certainly is a crime and I wish it could be prosecuted as such! Obviously, what it can do to the child is indefensible, turning a human being into some kind of a pawn. But there's usually little thought given to the man who is defrauded. I know it's usually the law - I guess depending on the state - if a couple is married at the time a child is born the husband is liable for child support. Isn't that stealing, is a man is made to pay support for a child the mother knows for a fact isn't his until that child is at least 18 years old? This is a "lose/lose" situation for all involved except the mother! To different degrees it unfair to the child, the "legal" father and the biological father as they are all being used or have been used by the mother to suit her selfish purposes at any given time. Very good, Gamer, you came up with another great one!
Annie
@kurtbiewald (2625)
• United States
10 Dec 07
hmmmmmmmmmm
its very bad to lie to people
especially about serious things like who someone's father or child is
, being a biological father is only one kind
perhaps what matters nost is quality time spent together, etc
its utterly despicable to tell someone he is the real biological dad if he is knot
pinion`
