Defiance or Anxiety?

Canada
December 16, 2007 10:18pm CST
I'll start by saying if you believe defiant children are just spoiled, save us both grief and don't read any further. Thanks! My 8 year old daughter is ADHD, ODD, and has bipolar with LOADS of anxiety so it fair to say that her life is a daily struggle. I feel for her! But some days OMG I just want to rip my hair out. Especially days I need her to bathe. For bathtime, I have to first mentally prepare myself for a 2-5 day fight... YUP DAYS!! Then I have to wait for a 'good' moment where she's not in a bad mood. Then I drop the bomb... she needs to get herself clean. It's been 2.5 weeks since her last bath. We've been trying to get her to go for more than a week to no avail. I can usually win by bribing that I'll warm her towel in the dryer and I'll stay close to the bathroom but today she wanted me to stay in the bathroom with her. She seems to have some sort of fear but I really don't understand it and she can't explain it. She says she just wants me to be there. She hears water drip and it frightens her. If the wind blows and it shakes the house a bit, she screams for me. So many times, I've just wanted to pick her up, set her in the tub clothes and all because I'm so frustrated but I know that isn't the answer and OH MY how much that fuel the anger in her! I need suggestions people! Taking anything away doesn't work with this child. You have to keep in mind of the listed disabilities above. And yes they are disabilities to her.
2 people like this
7 responses
@jillmalitz (5131)
• United States
18 Dec 07
Have you talked to her doctor? I can understand some of her fear.The hard part of being fearful is convincing her that things are ok. For example when the wind blows showing how a flag waves. Is she scared of water? Has she ever played in a pool? Have you tried to make bathing a game or play? How about taking a cup and having her count how many drips it would take to fill the cup. Has she ever had any therapy? My heart breaks for you. It is hard for any of us to suggest anything without knowing or seeing how she is on a daily basis. You need to take care of yourself. Do you have any help so that you could relax? My stepdaughter has a sister who is severely retarded and has a lot of problmes. Sometimes her Mom has to have help so that she can have some free time. I wish the best for you. All I can say is to talk to her doctor (or yours-for you) or any therapists you might know. Maybe they could give you some tips. Bless you and remember that you are not alone. There is help. Wish I could send you a big hug.
1 person likes this
• United States
18 Dec 07
It does seem that those of us who know sometimes dont take our own advise. Good luck and hope you can relax for a while.
1 person likes this
• Canada
18 Dec 07
So very true!!
• Canada
18 Dec 07
Thank you for your suggestions. I am a respite worker myself so I know there is help out there however I've never tapped into it. I feel like I shouldn't have to need it since I'm the one that provides help to others! Weird thinking I know! It's so much harder with our own children than with other severily more disabled children! My husband really thinks she just does all of this out of defiance. Sometimes I lean towards defiance and other times Anxiety. Since schools were closed yesterday due to our snow storm, I did manage to get her in the bath during daylight which is a big help.
• United States
10 Jan 08
Sounds like you have really already answered your own question. I know it's difficult because there is so much you want or need to do and bath time is like sleep time, a break. You may have to start out with being in there with her for a while then start sitting outside the door, and just slowly moving away from the door. I don't know if that would work, but it's worth a try right. Also, the bath time markers and bath toys were a great idea. On the days that she doesn't bathe could you give her a sponge bath? I know it's not as good as a bath, but it might help keep her cleaner than not taking a bath.
1 person likes this
• United States
11 Jan 08
That's great that you've found away around it. There is nothing wrong with letting your child bathe while there is still light out. And if it works, go with it! :-)
1 person likes this
• Canada
11 Jan 08
Since I've written this post, she's had quite a few baths without trouble. Some days she's fine, some days she's not. I have noticed though that we have less of a hard time if it's still daylight! So now I don't bother asking her to bath after dark! I've noticed a big pattern in her behaviours over the last 9 years and the winter is always the worse. Winter also has less daylight so I think I might be on to something! Tub crayons worked great except I used icing colouring, not food colouring and I put WAY too much which is causing tinting problem. Lesson learned!
• United States
11 Jan 08
It almost sounds like something my grandson does. His problems are not due to Bipolar. He may have ADD. He was prescribed medication before he was actually tested. I need to get him to see a doctor that specializes in childhood ADD and have him tested. He does enjoy bathtime, but prefers a shower because it is quicker. I have to remain in the bedroom which is connected to the bathroom, while he is in the shower. I have to tell him to rewash himself while I am in the bathroom watching because he tends to run the washcloth over his face and arms and says he is finished. He suffers from seperation anxiety. He refuses to stay alone in a room or inside the house when we are outdoors. He has to be near an adult at all times. You are not alone when it comes to having children with challenges. Big huggers to you.
• Canada
11 Jan 08
Thank you for your support and story. I know my daughter has separation issues as well. She can't go to birthday parties alone however she can play outside for hours without us nearby. Quite Odd. Doctors wanted to put my daughter on meds before an official diagnosis. I'll tell you the truth though, there is no official test. If the meds work GREAT there's the diagnosis. I told them not to bother. I want all the other testing done first.
@Ravenladyj (22902)
• United States
17 Dec 07
I think that somehow finding out WHY she is so terrified is going to be key obviously...but HOW you can go about doign that is something I really can't help with not knowing her etc ya know...Making tub time fun and unusual like the above poster mentioned might be the way to go until she can get calm enough and more comfortable with the idea...Has she ALWAYS been that way with water though?? If not I have to wonder what has happened to trigger this sort of response from her...Of course being ODD is a factor due to the defiant part but I dont know if ADHD would be a factor really...Is there some sort of past trauma that involved water or any trauma really..I know that my childhood trauma gave me Chronic PTSD as an after affect and loud unexpected noises became a serious issue for me (still is actually) even though the trauma itself had no loud noises etc ya know..For the time being I would just continue bribing her really..I mean she has to bathe right....You are very right in NOT just plunking her in the tub though not just for the anger issue but the trauma that in itself may cause her which of course will make the whole situation that much more difficult...
1 person likes this
• Canada
17 Dec 07
Finding out why she's so terrified is difficult because I don't think she knows herself. Many times I've wondered if she's making this whole thing up because she'll tell me big black bugs are coming out of the drain or a hideous monster is watching her. She's afraid to flush in case there might be a 'sewer monster'. The funny thing is... I've always had difficulties getting her to bathe but these stories she comes up with started when we moved to our new home in the country back in August. There hasn't been any kind of water trauma in her life (that I'm aware of) however I did leave her very abusive father when she was just a little baby. I can totally relate to your PTSD and loud noises. I know I'm being stubborn myself for not wanting to stay in the bathroom with her. Last night for example I told her I had groceries to put away and I sauce I needed to throw in the freezer, deal with the kitchen. She panicked... the kitchen is too far from the bathroom. So I promised her I would do it all really fast, have daddy help me and then I would sit in the livingroom which is just down the stairs. She said OK. I ran the water (something she refuses to do herself) and left the room. About 5 minutes later she came down panicking because I wasn't on the couch however I was on my way!! She said OK and went back upstairs. I played around on the laptop for a bit while I waited for her. She came down one more time and I told her if she would hurry she could sleep on the couch next to me and watch me play a game (hubby and I wanted to play Empire Earth once she was in bed) She was excited about that but about 15 minutes later she came down with her slew of sleeping buddies and in her pjs cuddled up next to me on the couch and started crying... Mommy I don't know why I'm like this. I just can't do it!! She didn't bathe, again... So a part of me feels like it's my fault. I should just stay in the bathroom with her but then another part of me feels that I can't have her control all of us all the time and she must learn to do this on her own. The funny thing is if someone else was asking for advice, I'd tell them to stay in the bathroom and gradually teach her it's OK! LOL I believe I have a recipe somewhere for bath markers... I'm off to find it!
• United States
17 Dec 07
What would be wrong with bathing her in her clothes if that is what will work? Put her in her bathing suit and get her some bath toys and get in there with her and play. My kids love the soap markers in the tub. They get to write all over the walls and not get in trouble :-)
1 person likes this
• Canada
17 Dec 07
That's a great idea. My sister had suggested bath markers and I forgot!! Guess I know what I'll be putting in her stocking now! LOL Thanks for the reminder! She loves going in the bath with her bathing suit and she has tons of bath toys. She also has this fixation with her pillows and teddies. She must carry them EVERY WHERE. And when I say pillows, I mean two regular pillows, two throw cushions and a decorative pillow. Then she has her KIKI (baby blanket), another purple blanket and normally she carries her comforter as well around the house. Then the teddies!!! There are at least three she can't leave the house without but around the house! OH MY... her 'family' consists of about 40 teddies and dolls however she'll only carry about 12 around the house, including the bathroom :) Obviously there's some clinging issues/separation anxiety there I should be bringing up with the psych huh?
• Canada
7 Jan 08
i'm beginning to think my 2 year old is adhd, she has no attention span, she never listens, and time out doesn't work. She is just all over the place. i was just wondering when you figured it out! thanks and i hope you figured out how to give your daughter a bath...what about getting in with her...if she has alot of aniety that may help....mt 7 year old is soooo worried i am going to forget her someplace...like school or the babysitters when my husband and i go out....i feel so bad when they are worried or sad...
1 person likes this
• Canada
7 Jan 08
I've known since day one this child was different. I went into labour four times... three preterm labours and then finally induced past my due date. Stubborn huh? lol Then came the constant crying, the fits, the hitting, the smashing, the etc!! No one would babysit this 'demon' child (as she was sadly refered to) Then at the age of 3 she decided she was running away from home. Yeah try running after a kid who decides there are no boundaries to run, not even a traffic filled road. I've had my share of ups and downs with this one! Bathtime is just another curveball which is why I tend to lean towards defiance rather than anxiety. Yesterday, I told her she needed to bathe before dance and I didn't even break a sweat! It was a beautiful moment! lol
@suspenseful (40192)
• Canada
11 Jan 08
I would make sure that she has on clothes that you do not mind getting wet, give her her rubby duckie or whatever bath toys she has, some of the squeezy soap that you do not mind getting over the tub, get her to fill the water herself so that she gets used to the water flowing in the tub (watch that the water is not hot though. A bath chair might help, then she can put her feet in the water and wash herself that way. Make a big fuss as how pretty she is going to look when she is all clean. You might also take her to the pscyhiatrist to find out why she is scared of water. She might need different medication and it could be something she saw her father do to you, or something he did to her.