Have you ever fought 'city hall'? Or, gotten a speeding ticket?

@ladyluna (7004)
United States
April 18, 2008 6:32pm CST
Hello All, Fighting 'city hall' can sometimes seem like it's just not worth the hassle. And, that is exactly what municipalities count on! Please read on, as your city may be next to adopt this SCAM! This will tend toward the long, but will be worth the read, if you ever get a speeding ticket that relies on the use of a radar gun. Albuquerque, NM is among a number of cities that have adopted a privately run, camera citation program, much to the chagrin of all advocates of the U.S. Constitution. To feed the ravenous pig (the greedy city), the city instituted a 'safety zone' on a federal highway -- reducing the speed from 75mph (the state speed limit) to 55 mph. They did so without installing flashing yellow lights, which signal a 'safety zone' (like a school crossing zone), and they failed to place signage on the 'on ramps' to the interstate highway. So, if a driver didn't know exactly where the 'safety zone' began and ended, you could not know what the posted speed limit was, until you happened upon a speed limit sign. Which, by that time means that you have already passed through a 'speed trap' (camera set up in an unmarked van designed to capture 100 photo images per 60 seconds). Yup, this takes the term 'speed trap' to a whole new level! 1. The program violates 'Due Process', as one is not entitled to defend their case in court. Rather, the program is run by a private, 'for-profit' company in conjunction with the city, and a quasi-legal 'hearings' procedure has been established to address the voluminous appeals process -- where no excuses are accepted, meaning that there is no Judicial Discretion. 2. The program violates the 4th amendment, because the ticket clearly states: "Failure to pay this fine on time will lead to serious legal consequences including the loss of your vehicle ..." Yup, tickets that aren't paid result in vehicles that are confiscated, and sold at auction. 3. There is no representative from the Prosecutor's Office. And, what's most eggregious of all is that the City has been maintaining this program under false pretenses of accuracy. Moreover, the program ASSUMES GUILT, UNTIL INNOCENCE IS PROVEN BY THE DEFENDANT. Hmmm, doesn't that sound like it's a 180 degree contradiction to our U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights? 5. The program operated for two years in direct violation of State Law: State Law mandates that a certain percentage of all traffic violation fees be directed to the State Treasurer. Yet, Albuquerque was 'hoarding' all of the revenue. This ended up in a display of greed that shocked the whole of the state! There was a showdown between the Governor, the State Legislature, and the City of Albuquerque. When the city feared losing its 'cash cow', they shut down the program, so as not to have to share the revenue! Though, it reluctantly agreed to reinstate the camera program after the media 'hammered' the mayor for his deceptive guise that the program was 'all about safety' -- when, in fact, it was all about generating revenue. In a two-year time frame, the city generated a net profit of $5,807,281 from this program -- all the while claiming that it was in the interests of public safety. Below is a snippet from an ABQ City Internal Audit of the program. Notice how much the 'private for profit company' made off of this cash cow? $2,844,920 "Net Revenues from FY05 through FY07, the majority of which is general fund activity: Citation Revenue $10,611,397 Expenditures paid to Redflex (the private company) ($2,844,920) APD Personnel Expenditures ($465,888) APD Direct Expenditures, excluding Personnel & Redflex ($761,350) Subtotal APD: $6,539,239 OAH Expenditures ($731,958) Net (Revenues - Expenditures): $5,807,281" link to an Albuquerque internal audit: http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/docs/2007/0710-abqmoney.pdf Anyway, my personal circumstances are that I got 'nailed' in exactly the circumstances outlined above. I got on an 'on-ramp' in the middle of the 'speed zone', and did not know what the posted speed limit was until after I had been unknowingly 'cited' by a camera -- no police officer contact at all. I didn't even know I was violating the speed limit until I got a ticket in the mail. *** You should also know that I only visit Albquerque on a once per year basis, or less frequently. The 'speed trap' was set up to ticket non-residents who travel to Albuquerque from all over the state, to use the only international airport in the state (an easy mark, who will generally not fight the ticket). When I got the ticket in the mail, I chose to fight it! I did my due diligence and appeared before the hearing officer, armed for bear! *** This is really important*** The police officer who was in the van that day was also present, BECAUSE I DEMANDED that he be present (it is our right to address the accuser). He submitted the photo evidence, and 'assured' the Hearing Officer, and the Gallery that his equipment was operating properly (chuckle, chuckle!) -- though he was never 'sworn in' in my presence!!! Then came my turn to cross-examine the Officer. The first question I asked was for evidence that he is properly trained in the use and maintenance of the equipment. He had no certification evidence with him! (Which means that everyone is just supposed to believe that he is certified to operate the equipment.) My next question was a request for evidence of his equipment log-book for the day in question. He didn't have that either! Which of course means that the officer could not PROVE that his equipment was functioning properly, and subsequently meant that the City failed to PROVE the evidence that that Officer submitted alleging my guilt. I moved for dismissal based on the grounds that "the city failed to prove the foundation of evidence" ... And, guess what? I WON! The moral of the story is: Always seek real justice! Albuquerque, like many other cities has adopted this program specifically to make money. They count on people being too ignorant, too busy, or too lazy to call them to task! If you value our Constitution, the please don't ever let your city get away with this kind of gross miscarriage of justice. It hurts every American Citizen!!! Photo enforcement is a SCAM, designed to generate revenue without being encumbered by the burden of evidence that is necessary in a legitimate court of law!!! [b]My questions to you are: 1. What are your thoughts, questions or comments? 2. Does your city have photo-enforcement? Or, have you heard about this new income generating scam? 3. If you get (or have gotten) a ticket, will you fight it? Or, will you just pay the fine? 4. I won my case. Though, that won't shut down the program. Do you think that I should keep fighting to have the program dismantled? To the best of my knowledge (based on my research), I am one of the few who have actually won. Or, should I take my win, and be satisfied? [/b] Thanks for reading this long post, and please know that I welcome your input!
3 people like this
7 responses
• United States
19 Apr 08
Congratulations on your victory. I'm pretty sure I would not have went to all the trouble you did, even though someone needed to do it. I'm just too tired of these kind of crooks and scams to deal with them. You are very much to be commended. There is a lesson to be learned from this. We the voters have got to stop electing the people who set this program up.
1 person likes this
• United States
20 Apr 08
The disconnect of which you speak is some kind of coping mechanism. Many people have a built in ability to delude themselves. The most common example of this phenomonon is in what is often called 'denial'. When a certain 'truth' or 'fact' is just too difficult for some people they have this 'disconnect' with reality and a 'disconnect' with the ability to put unpleasant facts together which logically reach a conclusion with which that individual can not cope. In other words, the person goes into 'denial'. If you ever find a way to help such people learn to get over this, please let me know. My favorite form of denial, is when people deny they are in denial and 'project' their denial unto others.
1 person likes this
@ladyluna (7004)
• United States
20 Apr 08
Hello Red, Thanks for the congrats! Your fatigue over this kind of abuse is the very reason why I am undecided as to whether to keep fighting this one. Part of me is resigned to see ABQ's tourism revenue slowly wither on the vine, then scoff at the bemusement of city officials. Though, that would mean that many will suffer the actions of the unscrupulous few. I wholeheartedly agree that the key to the finality of this kind of abuse is to elect representatives that don't seek to micromanage our lives. Yet, there seems to be such a disconnect. In fact, one older gentleman who was there to fight a ticket, stated that he believes the mayor that is behind ABQ's photo-enforcement is "a great mayor", and that the program is a good one. Yet, he was there to fight having to pay the fine. How can this kind of a disconnect be reconciled? I'm bewildered!
1 person likes this
@Guardian208 (1095)
• United States
19 Apr 08
Well done ladyluna!!! I'm very proud of you. I don't think that I would have been as well prepared and bold as you were. I'm going to answer all of your questions in the context of the next several lines. First, our town does have photo enforcement and I fully support it. But ours is significantly different than yours. Here the traffic cameras are for red light runners. In this case you either ran the red light or you didn't. In fact there are so many red light runners that when I was teaching my 15 years old to drive. I taught him to wait a few seconds after the light turns green just to avoid the cars that run the light. It is way out of control here. I wish we had those cameras at every intersection. Here the argument against them is that they would cause more accidents than they would prevent. They claim that more drivers would speed up to get through the light or brake too fast and get rear ended. WHAT! they don't want photo enforcement because other cars might be following too close? that is idiotic. In your case it appears that the "safety zone" was created for the sole purpose to trap drivers pure and simple. It is a blatant mis-use of technology to add to the coffers of the state. It is a violation of their own laws and should be aggressively fought. I would think that the right attorney would take this case and get all kinds of publicity from it. Or maybe some wise, savvy citizen who knows how to get things done might step up to the plate on this. Do you know anyone like that? (wink, wink)
1 person likes this
@ladyluna (7004)
• United States
19 Apr 08
Hello Guardian, Thanks for the moral support. I really appreciate it! I can only hope that your city's red light camera enforcement program isn't as riddled with controversy as Albuquerque's is (though to be sure, ABQ is not alone in this particular controversy). Specifically, ABQ does have red-light carmeras as well. It's all part of the same photo enforcement program as the speeding program. Which means that red-light runners in ABQ are subject to the same unconstitutional issues as speeders are. GRRRRR!!!!! I fully support respect and adherence to the letter of the law. As such, I believe that it is in the best interest of the police to enforce traffic safety laws. Though, these privately run 'profit-sharing', enforcement programs are so problematic because they rely on 'guilt until innocence is proven' for their revenue stream. If a city wants to use photo-enforcement, then I believe that it is incumbent upon the city to do so within the confines of the law. Though, I think you should know is that the argument that the red-light cameras acually increase accidents is true! This I learned while performing my due diligence. While the cameras do lower the numbers of T-bone collisions, they increase the number of rear-end collisions. This is part of the reason why two states have banned the use of unmanned camera enforcement programs within the past two years. The reality is that out of fear, 'in-the-know' drivers will slam on the brakes to avoid triggering the camera sensor, thereby causing the driver behind them to collide with their car. This has been proved out in ABQ - as the target intersections are experiencing increased rear-end collisions by 18-37%, varying by intersection. And, not one intersection over the last year has reported a decrease in T-bone and rear-end collisions. Note: these are unofficial stats, because the city has failed to release any official statistics, even after running the program for two years! Moreover, one of the sneaky tricks that cities have pulled has been to decrease the yellow light time, so as to increase revenue! The national yellow light standard is 4 seconds. While the NHTSD has suggested that a 5 second yellow light time would decrease the number of accidents by almost 40% overall. In the case of ABQ -- they actually lowered the yellow light time down to 2.8 seconds. When a local radio host had the listeners, including three engineers, time the yellow lights simultaneously with stop-watches, that same afternoon the city engineers office dispatched their crews to re-time the lights back up to 3.8 seconds -- because they got caught in a dastardly deception -- a deduction of one full second to increase revenue! Where they had previously officially reported that the city's standard yellow light time was 3.8 seconds. Grrrr!!!! So, while I respect your respect of the law, my point is that the 'wiggle' room for abuse of power when these cities learn of the revenue opportunity in photo-enforcement is very troubling BECAUSE the temptation is so great. AND, because the average, law-abiding citizen has no clue what lengths city officials are capable of lowering themselves to in order to feed the hungry pig. I never would have imagined that ABQ was capable of such a gross abuse of The People's trust. Though again, ABQ is not alone. It's exceedingly rare for a traffic citation to make it to the appellate courts. Yet, two states' Appeals Courts have banned the use of these programs, based on having overturned lower court rulings. The reality is that the 'private, for-profit' aspect has brought a whole new level of corruption to traffic safety issues. I applaud you for teaching your son to wait a few seconds after the light turns green. You have shared with your son one of the best defensive driving techniques -- to stay out of the way of dangerous drivers! As for the wink, wink: I will consider your wink. My decision is not yet made because taking this on would mean that I would have to be available to travel down to ABQ. This is a very unpleasant prospect for me. It's a long way to drive ... Hubby & I have vowed to avoid ABQ because of their disregard for the Constitution, and because such a 'fight' takes alot of time to win. Though, the result would be a great victory for all civic-minded people. So, I guess we shall see. So, having shared all this, would you fight the 'good fight'?
• United States
19 Apr 08
Wow Luna, I really have to commend you. I know whom to seek if ever in a spot such as this. As of right now we do not have any camera locations, I know it has gone before the city board on a couple of occasions. You strike me as a strong advocate for the US constitution and I for one would love to see how you would tackle such a task. It is a gross disservice to those of us who pay taxes, work and try to contribute to our communities to have the very officials of our communities use us for their own greedy agendas and ventures. With gas, and grocery prices rising on a daily basis, just how much more do they think we can take?
1 person likes this
@ladyluna (7004)
• United States
19 Apr 08
Hello Angel, Thanks for reading such a long post. I'm troubled to hear that your city council has entertained this type of program before. Hopefully, they will not adopt it. Your mention of 'using us for their own greedy agendas and ventures' strike a real chord for me. I had all I could do to bite my tongue while the folks ahead of me were raked over the coals -- under this guise of 'guilty until proven innocent'. Though, if I had gotten out of line, I would have rescinded my right to be heard, Grrrr!!! I have yet to decide if I want to be side-tracked with tackling the demise of this program in Albuquerque. I have some time to make my decision. Though, in the interim -- others can contemplate the eggregious nature of this program, and decide if they'll fight to keep it out of their own municipalities, or not. Thanks for sharing your thoughts here, Angel!
@Kowgirl (3489)
• United States
19 Apr 08
Three cheers for Ladyluna and anyone else who fights for their rights win or lose! I live in central Florida (near Disney World)and we have cameras on almost all our street lights. The police,the sheriffs deputies, and the highway state patrol use radar and cameras to issue tickets to everyone. Residents and out of state visitors as well. Speed limit signs are changed so often we really don't know what the speed limit is in some places. I may be 40 today and 25 tomorrow...There are some roads that don't even have a speed posted. Our courtrooms are full of people who try to fight these tickets, some win some don't. It's according to who sits in the judges chair at that time. Last year hundreds of people got fined because they didn't show up in court. They went to the wrong courtroom but it was the courtroom that they were told to go to on their papers. The judge who assigned them to this (wrong) courtroom has since been released from the bench. Florida makes lots of money off of visitors from other states because they know they wont drive back to show up in court. Instead of issuing the ticket to them they mail the ticket to their home. It's not worth the money to fight a $150 or less ticket if you have to spend more than that to drive back just to spend time sitting in a courtroom..
1 person likes this
@ladyluna (7004)
• United States
20 Apr 08
Hello Kowgirl, Thanks for sharing your thougths on this. It sounds like things are rather a mess in your neck of the woods. Has anyone tracked how frequently speed limit signs are changed? While the description of your traffic court situation is very troubling, at least your tickets are being adjudicated in a real court. One of the biggest 'beefs' with this photo-enforcement process is that the tickets are 'addressed' in a non-judicial setting. Meaning that they throw all of the responsibilities of the prosecution out the window, and that there is no adjudication at all. I do agree that fighting tickets is imprudent for tourists, and that the bean counters rely on this.
• United States
19 Apr 08
With this creama thing and tickets how dow they know if it is you driving the car or not. So I think they should just take them down.
1 person likes this
@ladyluna (7004)
• United States
20 Apr 08
Hello Strawpurple, First, I'd like to welcome you to MyLot. I hope that you enjoy your time here. You raise a very good point! Instead of the driver of the car being ticketed, the reality is that the car is ticketed. One of the earliest, and loudest protests of this program is that the registered owner of the vehicle may not have been driving at the time the the ticket was issued. After fervent debate, the city did initiate a policy whereby the driver could protest on the grounds that that he or she was not behind the wheel at the time of the citation. Though, in order to make this defense, the registered owner would have to turn over the name of the driver who was behind the wheel. So, once again this demonstrates how unconstitutional the program is. The basis of our judiciary is that the prosecution is obligated to prove that the named defendant committed the violation, beyond a reasonable doubt. In the case of this program, in order to claim the defense that "I was not driving", the defense must prove the prosecutions case that 'someone was driving when the car was cited for violating the ordinance'. Yup, this stinks to the rafters! How very astute of you to have 'caught' this point!
@Destiny007 (5805)
• United States
19 Apr 08
It is good that you did your research and stood up for your rights and prevented an injustice from being done to you. Knowledge is power. Missouri is full of speed traps and I had to go through one daily over a year to get to work. This one was in Curryville and the speed dropped from 55 to 25 through the city limits... which is about a mile long strip... and the city cops sat in various places 24 hours a day monitoring the speed with radar. The town consisted of a few houses and a used car lot, and not much else, and speeding tickets is where they generate most of the towns revenue. Even that place had huge warning signs up in advance of the town, so anyone that got a ticket was pretty much asking for one. They made the news one year when one of those solar cars went through and got stopped for speeding.... that may have been the reason for the huge signs because it created a lot of outrage locally at the time. I do believe that photo enforcement is a scam, and the fact that it is run by a private for profit company is extremely troublesome. A private company has only one goal, and that is to make money. Making a business out of law enforcement is a very bad idea that can only lead to abuse and the loss of citizen's rights. I am against privatizing government services including law enforcement and the prison system for that reason. There should always be posted speed limits and anywhere there is a change in the speed limits there is supposed to be ample advance warning of it, especially if a driver is approaching a reduced speed zone. Onramp, offramp and exchanges should be plainly posted so that there is no confusion as to what the speed limit is, and any failure to do so is plainly indicative of a deliberate attempt to set a speed trap at the cost of public safety. What I really find odd is that the officer was so sure of himself that he was not even prepared for court. He should have had all of his relevant certifications and logbooks with him as those were necessary in light of the questions that you asked. I would not be surprised to learn that he was at least counseled on proper legal and courtroom procedure by both the judge and his superiors when he got back to work. These officers pretty much count on people either being ignorant of the law and their rights, or being too busy to go to court, or being even fearful of going to court in the first place. Most people just think it is easier to pay the fine and be done with it, and the police counts on that. I have gotten a few tickets over the years. two of which were for speeding back in the eighties, and a couple for not wearing a seat belt. I paid them because I because they were valid tickets. I don't drive any more so it is no longer an issue, but if I had gotten a ticket for something I did do then I would have fought it. As to your last question, I think you should continue to speak out and try to inform and educate people about this. If enough people get involved then it might make a difference.
1 person likes this
@ladyluna (7004)
• United States
20 Apr 08
Hello Destiny, Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. (Quote - Destiny) "A private company has only one goal, and that is to make money. Making a business out of law enforcement is a very bad idea that can only lead to abuse and the loss of citizen's rights." I share your concern over privatization of law enforcement. As for the police officer not having been prepared: I was shocked by this! The only possible answer I have is that the city has written this ordinance as a 'civic code'. So, it is not a criminal issue. That is the only reason I can come up with as to why the Police officer, and the Hearing Officer both ignored the requirements of proof of the foundation of evidence. As an aside, because the code is civil, and not criminal --no points are assessed against the drivers record. So, one individual can get a million tickets, and never face any criminal charges. A driver's license will never be taken away as a result of repeat negligent breeches of safety protocols. Which corroborates that the whole design of the program is the generation of revenue. If the city was really interested in 'safety', then criminal punitive action would be a logical course of action. Meaning that if someone repeatedly breeches public safety, that it should be the goal of the city to rescind the driving privileges of that person. Though, not with this program. With it, one can repeatedly break the law, and only suffer by way of paying fines.
• Singapore
21 Apr 08
Hi ladyluna, In my country, there are speed cameras at road junctions covering the country to about 60-70%. Whenever, drivers who crossed the red light, it will snap the photo of the car and send it to the HQ database then after a few days, the owner will receive a summon to pay a fine. With this system implemented, I find while walking on roads is safer such that every person takes own responsibility to keep them and others safe. Speeding kills and it is against the law for drivers who speed. In addition, traffic police or traffic warden are assigned to bring along a specialized digital camera to the road side and take pictures of any cars speeding before the traffic lights. Therefore, current drivers in my country, are more careful and speeding is an less occurring event. In addition, in order to regulate the traffic, the government has erected overhead gantry named as Electronic Road Pricing (ERP) gantries in the middle of roads despite the road tax being imposed, ERP is an additional stuff. If drivers do not insert cashcard (a card that is able to contain amount of money) into the reading unit called "IU", the owner will be fined. Take a look at this: http://sg.news.yahoo.com/cna/20080408/tap-339924-231650b.html, in case, you do not know what is an ERP gantry is, here is the link to it: http://www.streetdirectory.com/stock_images/travel/erp_gantry/7/3/ Well, if you were to live in my country, it is better to be satisfied with your winnings because evidence talks in my country and there is no way to talk round with the officials. In your country, you may try to fight for your rights to have it dismantled although you have won. I, myself do not own a car and everyday, I will take public transport to home, office, school and others.