Personal Morals

United States
June 1, 2008 6:56pm CST
Recently I have been introduced to the idea that some people (probably most) just do not appreciate being told they are hypocritical. I have now come across a few instances of a vegan/vegetarian telling a meat eater who claims to "love animals" that they are less moral (or rather implied it) because they still eat meat. What do you think about this? Do you think someone who eats animals, but claims to love animals at the same time is being hypocritical, if not "less moral" than someone who loves animals and doesn't eat them? Yeah, kind of a loaded question... I bet you can guess what my opinion is! (by the way, I would never really question other people's personal "morals")
7 people like this
24 responses
@gantwick (849)
• United States
2 Jun 08
I don't think that a person who eats meat is being hypocritical when they say they love animals. Any more than a person who eats fruits and vegetables is being hypocritical when that say that they love plants. The human being's teeth are designed for an omnivorous diet - meat and plants. I don't think it was a loaded question.
5 people like this
• United States
2 Jun 08
The human body can also survive perfectly well eating only plants, but this is a debate for another place. Fruits and vegetables cannot be "abused" and cannot feel pain, therefore it is not the same at all.
3 people like this
@gantwick (849)
• United States
2 Jun 08
Interesting. Plants actually can be abused and do have feelings of sorts. Studies have shown that houseplants raised in a threatening/hostile atmosphere with harsh, discordant sounds do not flourish as well as those raised in a loving environment. I couldn't eat a pet. And if I raised a cow as a pet, I couldn't slaughter it and eat it, because it was a pet. I don't think I could eat somebody else's pet, either. But beef cattle, which are raised in herds and not as pets, are destined for the table. I was nearly a vegetarian when I was single (I had chicken or beef about once a week), but I married into a "carnivorous" family, and so I don't have many viable, affordable options. I know this has probably gotten way off topic, but if you have some vegetarian recipes, especially ones that would appeal to kids, I would love it if you shared them with me.
3 people like this
• United States
2 Jun 08
vegweb.com has a lot of good recipes, and I believe they have a "kid-friendly" section, too. That's where I get most of my recipes from As for the plants have feelings thing, I think it all depends how you define "feelings" and without a brain, they cannot feel pain (at least not the kind we feel) so I do not buy into that "but plants feel pain too, so might as well eat animals!" argument (not saying that's what you were saying, but I hear that a lot.)
3 people like this
@schilds (410)
• United States
8 Jun 08
I eat meat - and I love animals. Dogs and Cats, pigs and cows. I beleive that all domestic animals have a purpose. And I have seen 1st hand what an overpopulated heard of deer look like - they aren't pretty. I guess growing up in a ranching area I have a different view on things. When I am able to purchase some land I will have a few cattle, and a couple pigs -- I will feed them and love them, and when it is time I will eat them. I think the ultimate cruelty is not allowing an animal to serve a purpose -- not letting a dog guard, not letting a cat hunt...
4 people like this
• United States
8 Jun 08
I think the ultimate cruelty is not allowing an animal to serve a purpose -- not letting a dog guard, not letting a cat hunt... Not letting a cow....? a pig.....? What purpose do they serve when they are raised for food? Specifically large factory farms?
3 people like this
• United States
8 Jun 08
There are people who have pet pigs lol, but that is besides the point. You used the examples "not letting the dog guard, not letting the cat hunt." Obviously these are instincts these animals have. It is not the instinct of a cow to "be food" so those comparisons are illogical. As for factory farms... actually most animals come from factory farms. "The number of farms has also decreased, and their ownership is more concentrated. In the U.S., four companies produce 81 percent of cows, 73 percent of sheep, 57 percent of pigs and 50 percent of chickens.[26] In 1967, there were one million pig farms in America; as of 2002, there were 114,000,[27] with 80 million pigs (out of 95 million) killed each year on factory farms as of 2002, according to the U.S. National Pork Producers Council.[25] According to the Worldwatch Institute, 74 percent of the world's poultry, 43 percent of beef, and 68 percent of eggs are produced this way.[17]" (I got this from wikipedia.) You said you don't know much about factory farms... I recommend if you are interested to look it up and read about the way animals are treated there. It is not a "case of one ruining it for the whole lot" and if you can believe most of those who work at these kinds of farms have a "healthy respect for keeping things in balance" (that is, respect for the animals' well-being and health) then that is sad. I am not saying there are not "good" farmers out there, but those are unfortunately not the majority.
2 people like this
@schilds (410)
• United States
8 Jun 08
Cows and pigs are food -- that is their purpose. If they were not food what would they be? They are not suited to be wild animals - and even then they would only be food for something else. Most people would hardly want a 2,000 lb cow for a backyard pet. Beef cattle also graze grass - and help keep wildfires under control, atleast where they are still allowed. Wildfires are still a concern, but areas that have been grazed are easier to contain when there is a wildfire. And what about the byproducts -- where do you think the fertalizer for organic veggies comes from? They have their place, and their purpose -- it isn't pretty, but it is how nature designed us - to eat meat as part of our diet. I don't have much experience or knowledge about "factory farms", but I come from an area where ranching and hunting are ways of life. Ranchers don't mistreat their animals or land in general, because that is how they survive. If the meat is damaged they don't get paid (which is why most ranchers rarely use a cattle prod). If they overgraze their alotments there will be no grass for the next years herd. There will always be one who ruins it for the whole lot, but most of them have a healthy respect for keeping things in balance.
3 people like this
@Pigglies (9329)
• United States
2 Jun 08
I think it is at least somewhat hypocritical. When most people say they love animals however, I've found that what they really mean, is that they love dogs and cats. One of my friends however is a good example of a real hypocrite. She loves dogs, cats, wildlife, farm animals, everything. I had to kill ants in my bathroom and she was sad about that. You can't smash a bug near her, you have to take it outside and let it go. Yet she eats meat despite knowing about what happens. She is a very picky eater and blames it on that, but to me it is the oddest thing. I'm not one of those vegans to pester people though. But I do try to expose her to foods without meat. I also find it odd that she is very into the environment (supposedly), but eats meat. She won't pour water down the drain, she'll put it on plants. She wants to recycle everything. She doesn't throw things away. Yet a lot of resources are wasted unnecessarily on meat production and this does not bother her. It's strange. I guess my mind just wouldn't work like that.
4 people like this
• United States
2 Jun 08
At least she is doing something, but yeah I agree it is strange that she eats meat. It doesn't really make sense to me at all... I am a VERY picky eater. The pickiest I have ever met and there are a lot of things I won't eat, yet I fare just fine on a vegan diet. I actually get more variety being vegan than I ever did eating meat... she sounds like she just likes to eat meat.. I mean, if she really cared about animals/the environment she would at least TRY some new recipes and see if she can start fazing meat out, right?
2 people like this
• United States
3 Jun 08
Or, you know, people need to stop looking to PETA for all animal rights related information. There are tons of great organizations out there, too bad they don't get enough press.
2 people like this
@cyntrow (8523)
• United States
2 Jun 08
I won't comment, because I respect your views. My first effort was very snarky and I deleted it. I eat meat. Plain as that. It is my preference and although I do eat meat, it does not mean that I accept abuse of domesticated animals or the slaughter of animals for fur or trophy. It may, in fact, be hypocritcal and I can accept that. But I am what I am and what I am is an omnivour(sp). I don't eat people and I don't eat dogs or cats. Beat me up as you see fit. Thanks
4 people like this
@cyntrow (8523)
• United States
2 Jun 08
I once met a woman who was protesting fur while wearing leather boots. That's a total hypocrite, or idiot, I don't know which. LOL
3 people like this
• United States
2 Jun 08
That is very hypocritical... Vegetarians who wear leather also get my knickers in a bunch.
2 people like this
• United States
2 Jun 08
Luckily I like you What bothers me is not people who admit to being hypocritical, but people who can't see the connection between "loving animals" and eating meat.
2 people like this
@kenzie45230 (3560)
• United States
2 Jun 08
My son is a vegetarian striving to be a vegan and I've learned a lot from him. I also eat lots less meat because of what I've learned. Personally, I think that if most people realized how corporate farms work, how poorly animals are treated, then there would be more vegetarians. In the meantime, because people are in the dark about animal cruelty, I think you can love animals and still eat meat.
3 people like this
• United States
7 Jun 08
Perspctives - Perhaps I am being misunderstood. I am not implying that if you eat meat you cannot love any animals. Of course (most) people who own pets love their pets and I do not doubt that, but if they say "I love animals" and mean it as, "I love all animals, not just my pets" I can only assume they are implying they love animals used for food as well. Now, if this person also eats meat, then how are they loving the animal they ate? (assuming they did not raise/slaughter it.) You can talk about "other" cultures all day long, but what it comes down to is in today's western society, meat is over consumed and most people are not raising the animals themselves, not to mention most meat does not come from "humanely raised" animals.
3 people like this
• Canada
7 Jun 08
I agree that there are farming practices that are involve the inhuman treatment of animals. However, there are numerous farms and farmers who recognize the importance of providing the best quality of life for their animals while they are in their care...for ethical as well as business reasons. We are of the same mind Kenzie...that people can love and care for animals...and still eat meat. The number of cats, dogs, birds, fish that have a wonderful quality of life because of the love of their owners is not invalidated because they include meat in their diet...from my perspective! Raia
3 people like this
• Canada
9 Jun 08
Cattle grazing in green pastures - This is just one of many photos I have taken of well cared for, contented domestic farm animals in the Pembina Valley of South Central Manitoba.
Hi again... I am not sure if you are being misunderstood or not...and I am not here to confront who you are, what you think...or what you do. That is your decision to make. I decided to involve myself in this discussion at the suggestion of someone else who had commented originally. If there are misunderstandings...it happens to all of us. I have copied the content from your discussion that might be creating misunderstandings...and here it is:[b]I have now come across a few instances of a vegan/vegetarian telling a meat eater who claims to "love animals" that they are less moral (or rather implied it) because they still eat meat. What do you think about this? Do you think someone who eats animals, but claims to love animals at the same time is being hypocritical, if not "less moral" than someone who loves animals and doesn't eat them? [/b][i][/i][u][/u]From my vantage point...it does come across as a moral judgment...whether that was the intent or not. When I was a vegetarian and animal activist I was on my own soapbox as well. It was only when I moved to a rural farming community and traveled up North and saw the plight of many Natives on Northern Reserves that my eyes were opened to the reality that life is never as black and white as many believe. There are gray, neutral areas that many who are rigid in their belief systems find it difficult to accept. I am all for anyone following their own path...and believing whatever they choose. However, whenever any of us start pointing fingers at others it is bound to create confrontation. Throughout every post I have ever made here I suggest that as long as we agree to disagree within a spirit of respectful dialog the integrity of Mylot will be maintained. In regard to your comments about animal abuses and farm life...in some cases I agree. My hubby and I were city people who moved to a rural community because we felt out of sync with the hectic pace of big city life. We had a lot of ideas about how the farmers abused the land and their animals until we saw for ourselves that many of them do not. These families have often been working the land and raising animals for generations. They have a deep respect for their animals and endeavor to give them the best quality of life they can...because if they do not the quality of their product will be diminished...be it animal, grain or produce. As Winter08 pointed out when she shared her personal experiences growing up. She essentially said...you follow your chosen path...but allow others to do the same...for whatever their reasons with moralizing. I have included a photo of a large pasture filled with contented cattle living a leisurely life that I took earlier today while my hubby and I were driving around back country roads. There are others I have in my files with free range chicken farms and goats and bison in lush green pastures as well. In an ideal world I would love to think that no animal would ever be slaughtered to feed humans...but we are not there yet. Quite candidly, vegetarianism and vegan dietary choices are great for those in a financial position to purchase organic foods...but many (including the Inuits and Native Peoples) could never afford to eat that way...and this why they hunt. I ask you...if there were absolutely no meat available tomorrow...how do you think North American Society would feed itself? The question of meat and how healthy it is has as much to do with the steroids, growth hormones and the previous use of animal by-products in feed than the meat itself in my opinion. My only concern in suggesting a parallel to personal morals and the food people choose to eat is that the larger implications and lifestyle choices are not being factored in. As I said to you in other replies...any radical dietary changes can have adverse affects on the body...and not everyone thrives on vegan/vegetarian diets. All I have been suggesting is that proactive health involves balance and an ability to make informed choices about what is right for anyone's body...at any stage in life. I am a professional writer but my husband and I are also life coaches and group leaders in the health and wellness friend...and have been since 1990. We work in cooperation with client's nutritionists, physicians, psychiatrists and anyone else on their healing team. The information I have offered here is not about making you...or anyone else 'wrong.' All I have been doing throughout my replies to anyone in this discussion is presenting another...perspective. I will congratulate you on posting a very interesting discussion...and whether we agree or not...it sure has people thinking and chatting...and that is what we do here. So I say...good for you. I look forward to chatting with you again perhaps on something we see similarly...or not! (smiles) Raia
2 people like this
• United States
8 Jun 08
I adore animals and I adore a good steak too. Does that make me a hypocrite or a carnivore I don't know and I don't care. Here's what I do know I don't have it in me to kill an animal but I'll pick up a chicken at the grocery store without a second thought. Hummm, seeing this in writing I can now give you a direct answer. Yes it makes me a hypocrite. Ho humm will I never be perfect? I guess not. F*** it I'm gonna stop trying. As far as it being a personal moral to eat meat I'd have to say no, not so much. Is a lion immoral, or a dog or are Pandas, deer and other herbivores more moral?
3 people like this
• United States
8 Jun 08
Well, do lions, dogs, pandas, or deer have morals? No. Are we carnivores? No. Do we (in general) NEED meat to survive? No. Do carnivores? Yes.
2 people like this
• United States
8 Jun 08
There's nothing in meat that you can't get from plants/other sources (besides cholesterol ) but since you don't know what your mother was lacking, well then... I dunno lol. Just because a doctor recommends more meat, doesn't mean they couldn't have recommended a different source. Not saying meat isn't the BEST way to get whatever it was she needed (probably iron?) but I doubt it was the only way. Anyway, lots of big animals are herbivores... cows, horses, rhinos (!), pandas, moose, deer, zebras, goats, pigs, ELEPHANTS!... It reminds me of a quote from Henry David Thoreau: "One farmer says to me, 'You cannot live on vegetable food solely, for it furnishes nothing to make the bones with;' and so he religiously devotes a part of his day to supplying himself with the raw material of bones; walking all the while he talks behind his oxen, which, with vegetable-made bones, jerk him and his lumbering plow along in spite of every obstacle."
2 people like this
• United States
9 Jun 08
@wooitsmolly....I do respect your choice to live vegan. My brother in law and his extended family have made the same choice. I'd like to ask you why you think the human is the only animal with a moral code, a standard of conduct? I'm asking because I really am interested in why you think that. Me, I think the beasties have as much morality as we do. They hunt to feed and it is not a moral issue. It is a survival issue no right or wrong involved in the process. The choice to eat vegan is great and I do admire people who do it because they have a respect and love of animals but I don't think they have made a more moral decision than the guy eating the hamburger. Course as I already stated I do feel a wee bit hypocritical for buying my nicely plucked chicken from Kroger's when I know d*mn well I would never be able to kill a chicken so maybe I'm full of cr*p.
3 people like this
@dodoguy (1292)
• Australia
4 Jun 08
Hi wooitsmolly, I thought only PETA loved animals (and they really, REALLY love their animals...) But there is probably a double standard at work amongst those who claim to love animals, yet still happily munch on their loved ones' carcasses. IMO they just haven't done their homework. There's a disconnect somewhere between the "ideal" and the "reality" of how people live. As a matter of interest, there was a time when humanity was forbidden from eating flesh. It just didn't happen - and this is entirely consistent with our biological makeup. But given that, somewhere along the way, humans DID switch to consuming the flesh of other animals, then it does potentially present a paradox for those who claim to love animals ( or those that really, REALLY do - like PETA). I'd expect that the term "respect" is probably a better word to use than "love". We all "love" our pets - or at least, are supposed to (and PETA really, REALLY does...). But certain cultures, like the Native Americans, incorporated a deep respect for the animals that were obliged to give up their lives for human nutrition. Which recognizes that all animals have the dignity of life and individuality and deserve commensurate respect, but it's a hard world in the game of life, and some of us (ie, the animals) have to bow out for the benefit of others. No, humans don't NEED meat or the flesh of other animals to survive. Fruit and vegetables are in fact sufficient for our bodily requirements. But the world of relative scarcity immediately after the Deluge forced a situation where it was permitted to supplement one's diet with meat - and apparently this has become embedded in most cultures around the world, and has persisted to the present day.
@dodoguy (1292)
• Australia
4 Jun 08
Hi Perspectives, I am quite honestly dumbfounded at the statements that people can make, apparently with all seriousness, presumably inculcated from the effect of years of endlessly repeated commercially driven propaganda. For example - "Fruits and vegetables do not supply any sources of proteins and they are the building blocks of the body..." Hmmm. This interests me... So just out of curiosity, let's ask all the BIGGEST animals on the planet what sort of foods THEY prefer to eat. One would assume that THEIR enormous bodies are composed of at least SIMILAR building blocks to our own, if not the same. So now I have to wonder (I wonder, I wonder, I wonder) just how they accomplish the feat of growing those enormous bodies, when "Fruits and vegetables do not supply any sources of proteins and they are the building blocks of the body..."? And without even considering the largest animals, what about such human-scaled creatures as Orangutans, who produce abundantly healthy bodies with superhuman strength on a diet consisting of just fruit and vegetables? One might hope against hope that some pennies might be dropping in the background. I guess it's understood that humans are a herding species, and that they inherently strive to align their views with what is thought to be the consensus - and relentless propaganda, endlessly repeated day after day throughout the years, is a powerful proxy indeed for the consensus. So it's understandable that if a particular line is repeated often enough, eventually people will start to believe it, even if it's not actually true. But despite having a generally open mind, I still occasionally find myself gobsmacked by the twilight-zonish logic expressed by otherwise intelligent people who seem to have succumbed to the mainstream mantra on one subject or another. Yes, fruit and vegetables DO contain protein - more than sufficient for human dietary requirements, in fact. Unless one swallows the industry-sponsored "recommended intake" of nutrients which is tailored to what the beef, wheat and dairy industries provide, and NOT what we actually "need". I'd suggest that anyone having trouble accommodating this view, might find it helpful to refer to the comparatively larger bulk of an Elephant (or maybe a Mastodon, or a Mammoth, or a Brachiosaurus, just to press the point) and consider again what they use to build these massive bodily frames. Or just reflect once more on the darling face of a baby Orangutan, who will grow into a hairy adult as large or larger than a human, and considerably stronger to boot, on a diet of just fruit and vegetables. As for supplements, the principle reason that people in Western societies need nutritional supplements at all is because the natural bounty of the Mother Earth has been thoroughly poisoned and drained by the short-sighted wisdom of profit-driven Western agricultural methods. This direction, however, diverges from the intent of wooitsmolly's discussion (and I'm a touchy-feely kinda guy). So I'm going to just accept that people are people, and people see what they want to see. But I will say in PETA's defence that they love their animals (and they really, REALLY do!) at least as much as a pedophile loves a child.
2 people like this
• United States
4 Jun 08
Thank you, Dodo.
2 people like this
• Canada
4 Jun 08
Sorry dodoguy...those who do not eat meat often end up with B12 deficiencies that lead to irreversible neurological damage without awareness that it is occurring...until it is too late. The law of predation (predator and prey)exists on every level of the food chain. What would happen if there were no supplements available? The reality is without supplements individuals on vegan and vegetarian diets can end up with health problems because their bodies do not receive adequate nutrients. Fruits and vegetables do not supply any sources of proteins and they are the building blocks of the body. Check out other aspects of Peta...some of their members subscribe to a belief that there should be a genocide of all cattle...because of their impact on the environment. Yes, they REALLY love all the animals...that is contrary to what I have researched about them. So on this discussion I think we will have to agree to disagree. Raia
1 person likes this
@Ravenladyj (22904)
• United States
2 Jun 08
What do you think about this? Do you think someone who eats animals, but claims to love animals at the same time is being hypocritical, if not "less moral" than someone who loves animals and doesn't eat them? not at all...I'm a fullblown meat eater BUT I love animals..I love scoffing back a nice delmonico steak but that doesnt mean I love my pets or wildlife etc etc any less....In fact I'll take it one step further..I LOVE venison...BUT I also love to watch the deer in my backyard and get excited when I see them out and about...I dont agree with hunting them BUT I understand (around her at least) why its done..I could never hunt them and hate hunting season when it comes around BUT I'd never turn down a venison roast or steak or ground vension.. I dont see it as being a hypocrite because they are completely different things to me....and I'm very capable of loving and enjoying two things at once..I'm not limited LOL
2 people like this
@Ravenladyj (22904)
• United States
3 Jun 08
yea I can..and I agree that its somewhat flawed if you look at it black and white but I dont look at things that way. Never have never will...Its that simple for me ya know...Yes I love all living things BUT I love to eat meat too...i think for me its the seperation factor really....We let a couple of guys hunt on our land (deer) BUT we also know that its unfortunately necessary...NOW..could I go hunting WITH THEM and eat the catch? NO....but because I'm seperated from the hunt I can seperate my love for the animal and my love for the meat...I love cows...I think cows are cool as all fk actually LOL BUT would I ever turn down a thick juicy steak? HELL NO! BUT if I were there watching the cow get slaughtered I'm sure there is no way I could put it in my mouth...
1 person likes this
@urbandekay (18278)
4 Jun 08
"BUT if I were there watching the cow get slaughtered I'm sure there is no way I could put it in my mouth..." Here is the most odious kind of hypocricy, those that eat meat yet if confronted by the slaughter are squeamish. That are happy to eat meat if it is urbanely packaged to remove the connection between it an a living being. That would not kill but are happy to pay, in the price of the meat they buy, someone to do the dirty work for them. This, I find, the the most loathsome and disgusting of attitudes. all the best urban
3 people like this
• United States
2 Jun 08
So.... you can watch a deer in the forest and "love" it and then if someone hunts it that night and feeds it to you, you still believe you are "loving" that animal? Hey, I get what you are saying and all (I guess, kind of?), but the logic is so flawed it makes my head spin. I mean, you "don't agree" with hunting, but would eat a hunted animal...? LOL what? I'm sorry, but that makes no sense... Sooo I will just say that I love you.
2 people like this
@urbandekay (18278)
4 Jun 08
I guess someone that eats meat (ahhhhh!) and claims to love animals is pretty similar to someone that claims they "never really question other people's personal "morals"" and then does exactly that! hehehehehehehehehe all the best urban
2 people like this
• United States
7 Jun 08
Urban - WHEN DID I QUESTION ANYONE'S MORALS? Please point it out to me because I don't remember doing so. Now, of course I did say I think it is hypocritical to say you love animals and then eat meat (when I say animals, I mean those beyond just "pets") but I fail to see how that is questioning anyone's "MORALS"
2 people like this
• Canada
7 Jun 08
Well at least we agree on this point! (smiles) Raia
2 people like this
• United States
7 Jun 08
HAHAHAHA! Well spoke urb! Too bad you have so many 'loathsome and disgusting' attitudes that I find odious, otherwise we could be good friends. Hehehehehe.
1 person likes this
@Latrivia (2878)
• United States
5 Jun 08
The thing about morals is, they're subjective. What's moral to me, may not be moral to you, and vice versa. I personally see nothing immoral about eating other animals. It is in our nature to do so. One can still love animals and eat them. It's not like the two HAVE to be mutually exclusive. I don't believe one's difference in dietary habits should be lorded over others as "moral". I see no logical reason to conclude that being a vegetarian is in anymore more or less moral than being an omnivore. Nor do I think people who make a choice to deviate from the "normal" human diet have any right to accuse people who didn't make the same decision of being immoral. It is commendable that one would decide to choose to eat veggies rather than participate in a market which serves a product they don't care to eat. However, any respect - or "moral highground" - earned from that decision is instantly lost when they hold it over other people's heads.
2 people like this
@Latrivia (2878)
• United States
7 Jun 08
"I fail to see HOW a vegetarian can hold it over anyone's head that they don't eat meat? I think there is a communication/comprehension problem that happens often. A vegetarian will say, "I don't eat meat because I think it is wrong the way animals are treated and I'd rather not kill them" or whatever... and it's almost as if people hear instead, "I don't eat animals because I am a good person who doesn't MURDER and anyone who eats animals is obviously a sick person with no morals!" and then this other person gets defensive thinking they are being judged, and then the vegetarian gets defensive because they feel attacked... and then everyone hates each other and nobody LISTENS." Are you familiar with the phrase "Meat is Murder"? It's used by vegetarians or vegans with more...intolerant views (quite common with PETA members, too). I wasn't implying that all vegetarians do this, but there are some who do. In fact, holding it over someone's head that they are a hypocrite for saying they love animals but still eat them is just another way of lording it over someone that they are a vegetarian, because it implies that, as a vegetarian, you are not a hypocrite because you don't eat meat. I understand the desire to refrain from meat because they don't like killing animals. While I am not a vegetarian, I refrain from eating the meat of baby animals because I find the idea of killing or eating baby animals disgusting. I do not, however, tell people that it is wrong to eat baby animals. Similarly, I do not appreciate being told by others that it is wrong to eat meat, which is what has happened to me in a couple of my conversations with vegans or vegetarians. In retrospect, however, I think it's vegans that have this attitude more than plain vegetarians.
2 people like this
• United States
7 Jun 08
I fail to see HOW a vegetarian can hold it over anyone's head that they don't eat meat? I think there is a communication/comprehension problem that happens often. A vegetarian will say, "I don't eat meat because I think it is wrong the way animals are treated and I'd rather not kill them" or whatever... and it's almost as if people hear instead, "I don't eat animals because I am a good person who doesn't MURDER and anyone who eats animals is obviously a sick person with no morals!" and then this other person gets defensive thinking they are being judged, and then the vegetarian gets defensive because they feel attacked... and then everyone hates each other and nobody LISTENS.
1 person likes this
@dodoguy (1292)
• Australia
8 Jun 08
Hi Latrivia , Interesting angle you've introduced here - the relativity of an animal's maturity to the morality of eating it. It occurs to me that crocodiles will eat anything - ANYTHING - except a baby hippo, because big momma's never too far away, and let's face it, crocodiles aren't completely stupid. But they DO live an awfully long time. And they eat meat - even baby meat. And they're evil - thoroughly wicked, in fact, you can see it in their eyes. Except when they cry, then you just want to hold their little hand and comfort them. BUT I digress. The point is, the question of morality seems to be tied up with the notion of good and bad, and as far as animals are concerned, with an acknowledgment of their right to life. So it probably IS bad to deliberately take the life of an innocent creature so early in it's material experience, when there's really no need beyond the recipient's gratification. It might be a different matter if some people were starving and there was nothing left to chew on but a cute little baby lamb. To be honest, I'd probably starve rather than hurt the lamb. And we know that mothers will go to extreme lengths, and even die, to let their children live. There's something about a young life that IMO has more claim to living than one that's seen the ropes and been around the racetrack a few times. Of course, that's just a subjective view, but it does argue that the morality of killing animals for food isn't just black and white - it's more like a multi-dimensional, rocky landscape dotted with seemingly bottomless black pits of carnivorous emptiness, all illuminated by the brilliant white spark of life up above. Sounds scary.
2 people like this
@Winter08 (441)
• Canada
2 Jun 08
In this 21st centure, many of us are fortunate to live in a society where we have the choice of eating meat or not eating meat (friend or not). There were times and there are places where it's "eat meat or die." I avoid those places but I did not avoid the times. I was born in the 50's on a small prairie farm. The area I grew up was developmentally about 20 years behind the large cities. I remember the time when we first had canned green peas during the winter. It was a luxury, a treat, as our family literally had not cash money. And our winter veggies consisted of potatoes, carrots, and turnips that were stored in a dirt cellar along with whatever canning (preserves of veggies/fruit done in glass jars)that had been put down from the garden. Every meal, including breakfast, had meat. And this was meat we raised on our farm and that Dad hunted in season. And it was meat that my Dad had to butcher himself with the help of friends. Now, my Dad loved animals. He not only loved them, he respected them and he honored them. He valued them for their gift of life to him so that he could feed his family. I watched how he cared for all his animals: the chickens, pigs, cows, horse, cats, dogs. He spent hours with any animal that needed care when it was sick or injured. He respected it enough to be able put it down (i.e. kill it) when he knew it was suffering and unlikely to survive. I remember ... my Dad loved animals ... all animals. And I remember when my Dad was finally able to stop deer/duck hunting. I assume the economy of the farm (i.e. price of grain and beef) had improved to the point where he felt able to provide for his family through farm resources. He immediately posted "NO HUNTING" signs all over the farm. So, to answer your guestions regarding the morals of eating meat while claiming to "love" animals, I will agree with SusanLee. The choice to eat meat or not, to love animals or not, should not be classified as moral. It is not a right-or-wrong issue. It is a choice issue. For those who have the luxury of choice, they can choose to eat meat or not. And they can love the animal(s) or not. Are they being hypocritcal? Maybe. Or maybe they are unaware of how they are coming across. Or they have a different view of the issue. Sorry that the above comes across rather intense but the whole idea that everyone who raises/eats meat lacks morals, etc., etc. gets me going because there is no one on this planet that loved and respected animals more than the man who was my Dad. And I KNOW it hurt him to have to kill. But circumstances dictated. [Thank you, Dad, for doing what you needed to do.] It seems so many of those on the bandwagon of "humans should not eat meat" never go beyond their personal, idealic view of the world to consider that a lot of people cannot do other than eat meat.
• Canada
4 Jun 08
I saw this discussion and have been reading other responses before adding mine. Partly because of the 'flavor' of the discussion by the poster. I was reading comments and replies and in my view you should get the best response on it. I expected to read the reply when I noticed that you did not seem to warrant one. That gives me reason to pause...too much logic perhaps? Your personal experiences growing up are akin to what I have learned about farming and hunting practices in the small rural community we moved to in 1994. I was raised a city girl...and never gave much thought about farming...or hunting but have come to see things through similar eyes to yours since living here. As I have progressed through life I have had many consciousness raising experiences. I work in the health and wellness field and have had discussions with vegan and vegetarians about the moral issue of killing animals for food. I really respect how well presented your ideas are...particularly the following ones: The choice to eat meat or not, to love animals or not, should not be classified as moral. It is not a right-or-wrong issue. It is a choice issue.[i][/i] What you stated about the need your father had to provide for his family is similar to people on Native Reserves who would not be able to survive if they did not hunt. Yet many Native people have a very honoring approach to each kill. They thank the spirit of the animal for the gift they have provided. So yes Winter 08 I am in total agreement with your perspective...and I wanted to say I value your input...even if the poster does not have the courtesy to reply..for whatever her reasons. Raia
2 people like this
@rev1wendy (611)
• United States
8 Jun 08
I would have responded to this one a while ago if I hadn't been off here just over a week due to illness. Alergies. To plants. I do not love plants. Except, of course, the ones to smoke. Anyway. To answer your discussion. I do love animals, some more than others. I also believe that animals were put on this earth for our use, not abuse. Food for thought. What if the human race had never eaten meat. No one had ever butchered an animal of any kind. Where would we be today? Cleaning Buffalo s#i+ off our tomatos. The animals would have overrun us long ago and we would have been fighting with them for whatever tidbit of veggies we capture for our own. I do not believe that the cruelty that is often show is in anyway necessary or right. But those of us who do eat meat can love animals. I owned a horse I probably would have killed for. But I also believe that they are being stupid saying that the older ones cannot be butchered to feed starving children. I do not think that an animal should ever be esteemed higher than a human.
2 people like this
• United States
8 Jun 08
It is irrelevant whether our ancestors ate meat or not, as we are at a place now where we do not have to (please keep in my mind I am not suggesting everyone has the ability or means to be vegetarian, but in general.) Could you be suggesting that if we fazed out our meat eating and eventually stopped killing animals for food that humans would be overrun by animals? I don't believe an animal should be esteemed higher than a human, either. But I don't think humans need to esteem themselves so high that they become cruel and greedy and lose sight of the fact that these are animals with feelings and needs, just like human animals.
2 people like this
• United States
8 Jun 08
Fazing out meat... not just setting all farm animals free at one moment... when the world miraculously goes vegan LOL! What a thought... What happened to logic? Even if people cut out some or half of their meat consumption, so many less animals would be needed... one can only presume there would be less mistreatment... I mean, look at those numbers. Do we NEED this much meat? Well, we all know we don't. So.......
2 people like this
• United States
8 Jun 08
I really would like to spend some time alone with each person that treats those animals cruelly. An eye for an eye kind of thing. There is NO need for cruelty. Is goes back to that respect thing. PS. Glad you enjoyed my scenario.
2 people like this
@SusanLee (1920)
• United States
2 Jun 08
Well...morals means to be able to be able to know right from wrong. I just don't see whether a person eats meat or not falling under morality. But if a persons convictions leads them to be a vegetarian. I'm not going to tell them they're wrong. I don't think it's a question of right or wrong, I think in that case it's a personal choice. When I see a cow in a field, I see a brown eyed cow. When I see hamburger in the meat department in the store, I see tonights meatloaf.
2 people like this
• United States
2 Jun 08
But how do you separate the cow in the field from the cow on your plate?
2 people like this
• United States
2 Jun 08
Right. And that is where we differ because I cannot separate the cow in the field that I find beautiful from the cow on a plate. I have a hard time dealing with the fact that most people don't care about those animals because they never deal with them personally. I am not emotionally connected to any children, but when I hear of one being murdered it upsets me, and I wouldn't murder one myself.
2 people like this
@SusanLee (1920)
• United States
2 Jun 08
Do you really want to know the truth? I'm not kidding now. I'm not emotionally involved with the cow on my plate. I'm not trying to be a smart aleck, but I'm just not emotionally involved.
2 people like this
@sk66rc (4250)
• United States
8 Jun 08
This topic & it's responses remind me of a joke... "If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?" Ok, bad joke... I like plants & flowers... That's not going to stop me from eating salads or cutting down, butchering, dozen roses for my girl-friend's birthday or Valentine's day... I like ocean, sound of wave, way the moon reflects off of the night ocean view... I drink water everyday... I like trees, too... I also burn them in my fire place... I like most animals, and if I eat only the animals I hate, would that make me not hypocritical? I like dog, I don't eat dogs... I like cats, I don't eat cats... I don't like rats... They carry disease... Does that mean if I eat rat, it won't make me hypocritical? By that standards, almost everyone on the face of the planet are hypocritical... At Christmas party, I heard some people at the BAR complaining about drunks in public while he was so drunk that he couldn't keep his voice down, or didn't realize his voice pretty much carried through out the entire bar... I heard people complaining about people with loud cell. phones & in the middle of them expressing their complaint, their cell. phone rings... I've heard people complain about U.S. companies shipping jobs out to different companies but yet they drive Honda's, BMWs, Mercedes, Toyotas, Mitsubishis etc... They drive themselves home filled with Sony electronics, Wirlpool appliances, made in Germany... Take off their Italian leather shoes & eating their French food... They read about littering problems on news paper drinking their coffee saying stuff like, "what's this world coming to!" on side walk bench then throw coffee cup on a ground as they walk away when they are done... We eat our way up the scale then spend millions upon millions of dollars as a nation on diet pills but we shake our head when we see people dying of hunger... I don't know... Just a thought...
2 people like this
• United States
8 Jun 08
What's your point?
@sk66rc (4250)
• United States
8 Jun 08
My point is, I don't believe just because someone loves animals but they eat meat as well doesn't quite put him/her in "hypocritical" or "less mortal" catagory... If that was the case, not all but majority of the people on earth would fall under that catagory for one reason or another, some under the examples listed above...
2 people like this
@sk66rc (4250)
• United States
8 Jun 08
Oops... I meant different U.S. companies shipping jobs out to different countries... Rarely people keep speed limits but they complain about others breaking laws, even minor traffic ones... People complain about taxes but wonder why roads are crappy when taxes go down... People refuses to give a dollar to a homeless person but wonders why so many people are cold hearted... People let their kids run around restaurants but complain about other people's kids when they get in their way... People say, "you get what you paid for" but turn around & look for cheapest deal possible & wonder why they can't get decent help... Spend some money, may be places you shop might be able to afford a decent help... People look for free stuff, way to cut corners, then call others "cheap scape"... Why do people drive in a parkway & park in a driveway? When somethings goes wrong due to their fault, it's a mistake... If someone else makes a mistake, they're looking to get paid or somebody has to pay for their mistake... Again, just a thought... Figured I'd put some more on since I was on it...
@cutepenguin (6431)
• Canada
2 Jun 08
I don't think it's being less moral. Morals are different from beliefs, for one thing. I think it would be rude to tell someone they are hypocritical because they eat meat. I don't think anyone would appreciate being told they are hypocritical. I agree with the previous poster who mentioned that people's teeth are designed to be omnivorous. And in can be quite difficult, especially for kids, to get all of the essential amino acids without some meat. But that's a different topic.
2 people like this
• United States
2 Jun 08
You're right, it is a different topic, and you are wrong about the difficulty.
2 people like this
• Canada
4 Jun 08
Whenever people are so dogmatic and telling others that their exalted opinions are superior to another...there is bound to be conflict. How about respecting other people's views...even if you disagree with them? Who are you to tell others that they are wrong..and you are right? You are entitled to your views...but so is everyone else. You mentioned that Peta is so pro animal rights in one of your replies. Do you know that some of their members believe in the genocide of cattle because of the impact they BELIEVE they are having on the environment? And they have the right to call themselves animal rights activists? There are wing nuts in every organization...and not everyone is working for the common good...when people take the time to investigate. That is what I do for a living...I am a journalist...and it is my job to research information and impart it in a neutral...non-judgmental way and allow the readership to form their own opinions. Cutepenguin is correct...the best source of complete proteins comes from meat. Vegans and vegetarians are at risk of developing B12 deficiencies if they do not supplement...and many are unaware of that FACT. Check it our for yourself. Putting a child on a vegan or vegetarian diet could lead to irreversible neurological damage. So putting information out there that is invalid...AND calling it a moral issue on top of it is something I do not agree with. However...it is your choice to do so...and I respect that whether I agree or not. This is a discussion forum and I think it is incumbent upon all of us to share ideas in a respectful way that honors differences. Raia
1 person likes this
• Philippines
4 Jun 08
I think its not good to judge people just because they eat animals and they love them too at the same time. In this time of era, eating meat and being a vegetarian are well welcome. I guess people being a vegetarian and being carnivores have there own reasons and concept to why they decide to have that kind of food lifestyle. Maybe not just there own reason but how society runs today, how is the standing of the economy (by saying that, people don't have an option to choose the food they want but to be more practical like in the Philippines, vegetarians are not that widely because vegetables here are expensive), and how they grew up with meat. For me loving animals doesn't just prove by not eating them, some may not eat them but still cruel towards these animals and some eat them but have the purest caring for them. I think those people who judge others because of loving and eating animals at the same time need to broaden there reasoning.
2 people like this
@Madona1 (2096)
• Gibraltar
2 Jun 08
Hello there, that was the exactly same reply made by my hubby when our daughter asked him why he didn’t eat meat. My hubby has become a vegetarian more than 25 years, longer than when I met him. The reason wasn’t because he changes his faith, he loves animals etc, it was purely because his health that needs to be on the meet free diet. When I started dating him, I tried to be a vegetarian as well so that it was easy to prepare a meal for two. However, I couldn’t handle it. Especially after having our daughter, I don’t want her nutrition malfunction in her young age. But my hubby disagreed with me and tried many ways to convince our girl. Luckily, my hubby has a big family that everyone eats meat but him. Therefore, our girl can follow other’s diet – having meat! LOL
2 people like this
• United States
2 Jun 08
Children do not need meat to be healthy, but that is another discussion.
2 people like this
@maximax8 (31055)
• United Kingdom
4 Jun 08
I am vegan and that is my choice of diet because I love animals and want to have a healthy diet. I think that vegetarians and vegans are sort of on a track and so people go further than others on this. Like someone that is trying to be a vegetarian might be at level 1 on the track whilst someone that has been vegan for five years might be at level 5 on the track. I do not wear leather but know that some vegetarians and vegans do. I respect other people's ideas and choices and think each to their own. One lady I met in Slovenia told me that she had difficulty eating a fish for dinner the evening before this because it had a face. Some meat and fish eaters want to have neat parcels rather than the real thing. I think some people love animals, have pet dogs and cats as well as are meat eaters. I don't think that such a person is being hypocritical but just has different values to me. People in Europe eat cows and pigs yet they find it challenging to think about people in one part of Asia that eats cats and dogs. Everyone has different morals and some people love animals more than others.
2 people like this
@kenzie45230 (3560)
• United States
7 Jun 08
This has turned into quite a discussion. For some reason, as I was reading some of the comments, the question WWJD popped into my head. And I thought, "You know. I'm certain that Jesus loved animals. He loved all of God's creatures. And yet it doesn't say that he was a vegetarian or that he did not eat meat." In fact the Bible tells how to cook meat, so it can't be considered bad in God's eyes. And that's where I weigh right and wrong - with what I believe God wants of us. I don't think God approves of the inhumane way animals are treated. But I do think God thinks it's okay for us to eat meat. But...the Bible does say that God doesn't like gluttany - and I've heard that we're now eating far more meat than we were ever intended to (per person).
2 people like this
• United States
7 Jun 08
This discussion has turned into a mess. I am finding myself feeling attacked for things I never said! Kind of frustrating... and most people are not even staying on the topic at all. The topic was never, "is it okay to eat meat?" only, "do you think people who say they love animals are being hypocritical if they eat them?" LOL. That's all! You're right about the over consumption. Obviously with the number of overweight and obese people today... meat has a lot to do with it. We are not "made" to eat meat at every meal... even if you are going by the traditional food pyramid you should only be eating a few ounces a day... not per meal!
1 person likes this
@isegor (117)
• Portugal
5 Jun 08
starting a discussion and not accepting any point of view different from my own! I consider that hypocritical. I believe the world would be a better place if everyone would ate vegetable, cereals, fruit and berries but the world isn't like that. but it won't be for a very long time. a lot less land would be needed to produce food for all, but "old habits die hard" or not at all. you can't change the way people feed by saying it's morally wrong, you need to point out the pros and cons of such food habits. I eat meat every now and then although I prefer fish and some vegetables and fruit. Basically, I consider meat a hot dish and the others are fresher and lighter, making me feel better, specially in the summer. thousands of years of evolution show human beings have teeth that have developed to chew meat and not only grass and leaves. I like some animals like cats and human (at least some of them) and I wouldn't eat any of my cats, nor any kind of cats, nor humans. one can like one or more kinds of animals and eat others. the same happens with vegetarians, they don't eat every plant know to man. would you eat all mushrooms? would you eat poison ivy?
2 people like this
• United States
5 Jun 08
We are all hypocrites, isegor. I have my opinions, just like everyone else in this discussion does. I accept everyone's beliefs, but that does not mean I have to agree with them
1 person likes this