Gods will, not mine. There is a difference.

@II2aTee (2559)
United States
July 15, 2008 11:00am CST
My friend Zuk started a discussion that got my gears to cranking. Now, I'm not a Christian, however I am in total favor of the freedom of all religions. That being said, I have a question, based on pure curiosity. I am not (and never will - mark my words on that) bash Jesus, God or the Christian faith. However, many of Gods "followers" need a taste of their own medicine at times. Therefore, I pose this question. In the Old Testament Abrahams faith was tested by God when God spoke to him, telling him to sacrifice his only son. Now, in THIS day and age, you see in the news at least a couple times a year that a parent does something unspeakable to their child because God told them to. Last year, for example, a mother doused her daughter with boiling water. She claimed that God spoke to her and told her the devil was in her child and that was the only way to expell the demon. Who are we to say that God was not speaking to this woman? Who are we to say that the devil was not actually in this child? Of course, the woman was insane, but some parallels can be made between this story and the biblical fable of Abraham. If someone can go out and do something horrible, and say that God told them to do it, who are we as mere humans to question Gods motives? Does your relationship with God exempt you from basic human morality? I welcome your thoughts.
9 people like this
12 responses
@Springlady (3986)
• United States
15 Jul 08
Hi tee, God did not take Abraham's son. It was a test of his faith. Because of Abraham's great faith, God rewarded him and blessed him. We also have to remember that Satan is very real...just as real as God is. Many people use God to try and justify their evil. Satan has a way with human nature. There are many people today who are demon-posessed. The Lord Jesus healed many posessed people and He still does today. God is a holy and just God. He cannot tolerate sin in any form. He hates sin because it destroys us and He loves us. Jesus Christ came to be the Ultimate Sacrifice for our sins and He paid the price. I put my faith in the Lord, not in this world. I pray for everything. I seek God's perfect wisdom and perfect guidance for my life. Since I gave my life to Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit dwells within me and I know what is truly from God and what is not. If you do not know the Lord, you can't understand it because the Holy Spirit is not within you. You cannot grasp Who God really is and His nature. The only way to God the Father is thru His Son, Jesus Christ. God bless you and have a great day!
1 person likes this
@II2aTee (2559)
• United States
15 Jul 08
From what I understand about this fable, God did not take Abrahams son. It was a test of faith. That much I get. Let me make this a bit more personal, Spring. Say while you were communing with God he told you you had to do something horrible to your child to prove your faith in him. Now, according to the biblical story, you would know in your heart he would not have you follow through. However, would you go through all the preperations, and wait for a word from God the moment before you execute? I dont think you have children, but for the sake of this question lets pretend you do. What would you do?
1 person likes this
• United States
15 Jul 08
Tee, As a Christian and knowing the Lord the way that I do, I know He would never ask me to do that. It is not God's nature. The command to sacrifice Abraham's son was the supreme test of Abraham's faith in God. It was a crucial test of his faith. He was willing to give up his son in obedience to God, although at the last moment the Lord intervened to save Isaac. The Lord's promise of descendants as numerous as the stars of the heavens was once again reaffirmed as a result of Abraham's unquestioning obedience. (this was taken from Nelson's Bible Dictionary) God is always faithful no matter what. He never fails us and whatever He asks us is for our good. If I had a child, I would ask the Lord to help me to remember that the child belongs to God and He is entrusting the child in my care. It is my responsibility to teach my child godly standards, to encourage him/her to trust in God, to respect authority, to obey God, to pray, to love, to forgive...etc. God sometimes asks us to do things that we don't want to do or that scares us. But whenever God asks us to do something, we can be completely sure that He will supply everything we need to do what He asks. He will never ask us to do something that is out of His perfect will. Sometimes He asks us to do things that takes us out of our comfort zone. But we must always remember that He never leaves us and He is always helping us to do what He asks. It is all a matter of trust and faith in the Lord. God bless!
@II2aTee (2559)
• United States
15 Jul 08
Spring, let me put this a little more bluntly. Put yourself in Abrahams position. God tells you sacrifice your child (just as he did Abraham). What do you do?
1 person likes this
@tessah (6621)
• United States
15 Jul 08
who knows.. maybe god was speaking.. or maybe it was something else. a test of the persons humanity? their common sense and decency? i truly do beleive that the bible was handed out as a test.. to see who would and who wouldnt do the discpicable things it dictates in order to be rewarded with the riches of heaven. and that all those who heed to such atrocities aganst their fellow man are in fact dooming themselves to this hell they fear so greatly. an example of illogical irrational behavior as dictated by this "god" : a woman i used to know.. her sister became pregnant without the benefit of a marriage certificate.. and as dictated in the bible, this child was condemned to hell, as well as all of their descendants.. being "god fearing GOOD christians", her family confined her inside their home, keeping her prisoner so that no one ever saw that she was pregnant.. and when the time came she began labor.. they dragged her to the basement, bound and gagged her so no one could hear her screams of pain.. and swiftly threw the newborn infant into the furnace to purify its soul and send it to god and "save" it and possible future descendants from an eternity in hell. by gods command.. yeah, such a loving god..
1 person likes this
@II2aTee (2559)
• United States
15 Jul 08
Heartbreaking. I'm glad this is the first response because this is exactly what I am trying to get at. I would like to see a Christian speak about this. Any takers?
1 person likes this
@paroloza (140)
• United States
15 Jul 08
I'm glad to tell you that there is absolutely no place in the Bible where any child -with or without the right certificate- is condemned. According to Jesus, all children are saved and loved by God. The fact that there are so many misled people who pretend to be Christians should teach us not to generalize, or we will act as those who say: "all women...al men... al blacks... all hispanics... all Americans..."
@tessah (6621)
• United States
15 Jul 08
you need to re read the book of deuteronomy a bit closer.. as it DOES in fact state that "bast@rd" children are not welcomed within the kingdom of heaven.. nor are their descendants.
1 person likes this
• Canada
16 Jul 08
I find it hard to believe that you are considering that these people who hurt there kids are actually hearing from God. In the case of Abraham there were many factors and none of which the out come was Abraham hurting his child. Many things were taking place here in this story. Only few can my pee wee brain was smart enough to figure out when I read the story. One God was building Abraham faith and two that God was Abraham's provider. From that day forward Abraham new without a doubt that God would provide all his needs no matter what they were. He could have faith in God no matter what the hardship. You see God had already provided for that sacrifice on the mountain and he had no intentions of using Abraham's son but he did use this as a lesson to teach Abraham. Okay like I said that is what I got out of it when I read the story. I am sure people who have read the story many times over or are scholars of the word can tell you more about the meaning of that bible story. God would never want anyone to kill their children. These people do have a mental illness and what ever else the explanations could be; but those reasons are not of God. God tells us to abide by the laws of the land we are not exempt from anything. If anything I would have to say we are more accountable then the rest as we know the truth of God.
1 person likes this
@paroloza (140)
• United States
15 Jul 08
Isn't it a bit unfair to blame God for whatever insane idea human minds generate? As a believer I'm convinced that nothing whatever that results in harming emotionally or physically other persons, can be ascribed to God's influence. I do not reason about his plans and motive but for God, definetely, the purpose does not justify the means. This would be amoral, and an amoral God is no god at all. I know, the Old Testament describes many supposed interventions of God, inviting the Hebrews to genocide. But to me, these details in the Old Testament are no necessarily God's will but human understanding of God's will, put down by the authors. No wonder that prophet Jonas was so annoyed when sent to Ninive to save the enemy, that was not in his people's interest! In the New Testament, as the place where Jesus' teaches his ethics, God asks from us to act with the highest morality possible, his own, even when this would defy or exceed normal human laws. To answer bad with good, to love the enemy and sacrifice yourself for his best... that's the teaching and the example God gave when he lived among us.
@II2aTee (2559)
• United States
15 Jul 08
I am not blaming God for the misgivings of the human race. Thats not the point I was trying to make. I am saying that if someone believes the recieved instruction from God to do something horrible, should that excuse their actions? For example, our own President Bush, speaking to an audience in Smoketwon Pennsylvania in July of 2004, was quoted saying "I trust that God speaks through me. Without that I couldn't do my job." When people say that they speak for God, should that be considered a carte blanche to do whatever they want? I mean after all - who can argue with God? And how would we know the difference between a crazy person who says the hear the voice of God, and a person who really is getting instructions from God?
1 person likes this
• United States
15 Jul 08
Tee, When a person invites Jesus Christ into their lives, He then dwells within them. They receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit and He guides our ways. I'm not saying that President Bush has never made a mistake because he is human and a sinner just as the rest of us. God knows what is truly in his heart. When we know the Lord Jesus Christ, His love dwells within us. When I see other true Christians, I can see the love of Jesus thru them. God bless.
@II2aTee (2559)
• United States
15 Jul 08
Great sentiments Spring but you have yet to enrich this discussion with actual information. I know you love to talk about the goodness of God but if you have nothing to add to my debate, I would ask that you not respond at all.
1 person likes this
@myklj999 (33936)
• Olney, Illinois
15 Jul 08
Tricky discussion here Tee. I like it! I'm willing to bet most of the responses are going to say something about how that is the old testament and doesn't matter anymore, because the laws changed when God sacrificed His own Son Jesus for our sins. (I almost sound as if I know what I'm actually saying, don't I?) Myself, I don't understand why if God made the rules, and He saw the rules were good, why He would feel the need to change them later. I will be following this one. I'm curious as to what the majority will say.
@II2aTee (2559)
• United States
15 Jul 08
One of the ten commandments is "Thou shall not kill." That should have been the first sign to 'ol Abe that something was amiss. But again, my knowledge of the bible is very limited. I'm sure the church has answered this question before, so I'm sure they have a round about answer all set for me.
1 person likes this
@Barb42 (4216)
• United States
15 Jul 08
You are right. We will say something to that affect, but the thing is, God won't ask us to sacrifice a child or an animal. His SON was sent for the ultimate sacrifice so there would never have to be a blood sacrifice anymore. The OT does matter,but God made a new Covenant with us that the people of the OT didn't have. Where they had to place a sacrifice on the altar, we need only place ourselves on the altar in front of God to get forgiveness for our sins. That's what the blood of Jesus did for you and I. As someone else said here and on another post I read earlier, God was testing the faith of Abraham.He knew he wasn't going to let Abraham sacrifice that child. He was about to make Abram (at the time) father of many nations. He had to know that this man was the one for the job, if you will. Oh, I'm sure he already knew the answer, too. He had told Abraham that Sarah (both had a name change from Abram and Sari) that she would bear a child at her old age and call him Issac and he would establish a new covenant with him, an everlasting covenant. So why would you think that God would allow Issac to be killed by his father?
1 person likes this
@II2aTee (2559)
• United States
15 Jul 08
Barb that first paragraph was wonderfull, and came very close to answering much of my question. You have given some degree of clarity and I very much appreciate the time you took to do so. Had you responded on your own instead of responded to someone else, yours would certainly be a candidate for best response. However, since MyLot will not allow me to grant best response to responded responses, I hope you will simply accept my appreciating and respect. Thank you, again. Tee
1 person likes this
@Hatley (164232)
• Garden Grove, California
15 Jul 08
112aTee My relationship with God goes right well with my basic human morality. I do not hear voices and would seek mental help if I did,but my consciene speaks loudly when it thinks I might do something wrong.
@II2aTee (2559)
• United States
15 Jul 08
I like this answer very much. Well done, and thank you for responding :)
1 person likes this
• United States
18 Jul 08
I would have to say no. I believe I have a pretty good relationship with God, but I still have my morals. I wouldn't hurt any one. I can see what you are saying though about who are we to question others.
• Philippines
16 Jul 08
good day... with that kind of notion then no one can be held accountable for their action. Every rape, every murder, every infanticide, every genocide can be justified by a person when he/she would just say God told me to do it t expel the devil or anything like that. Do we need that kind of justification. Would we just accept the "God told me... thing". I won't would you?
@earthsong (589)
• United States
16 Jul 08
I, also, am not a Christian. Although I do favor freedom of religion. There are zealots in every manner of faith, so I don't think its right to allow someone to worship their version of our Creator based on what we hear or think we know. I was raise Catholic, studied Buddhism and the Torah in high school and college, and converted to Fundamental Baptist in my early 20s. I don't know everything about any one religion, but I do have a lot of information on quite a few to make me wonder about the Bible. That being said, my answer to your question is more of a question. If the Christian God is all knowing and all powerful, omnipotent and omnipresent, why is he jealous and why would he feel the desire to "test" someone is such a manner? I would die for my kids, and I couldn't harm them intentionally because I believe God told me to. There is enough sickness and evil in this world, too many people harming kids in all manners from mentally to physically to sexually. To think that my all loving God would want me to join in is pretty disturbing.
@youdontsay (3503)
• United States
16 Jul 08
In the story of Abraham God was testing him but stopped him before he actually killed his son. The story is to show how righteous Abraham was, not to encourage people to sacrifice their children. Having been a mental health professional I have know people who heard voices and/or had delusions that led them to do harm. There is a very different quality to the psychotic acting out than that of a truly pious person. It might seem the same to the untrained eye, but people who hear voices have a pattern of hallucinations, not a one-time event - usually. I often had this discussion with colleagues about whether hearing voices always means one is psychotic. I know people who talk to God and hear the voice of God and they are not psychotic. Otherwise we'd have to lock up a lot of fervent religious people! The difference is the content of the message. God does not control people as if they had no choice but to obey. Psychotic people, however, don't have the ability to chose to ignore the voices commands. They may be able to restrain themselves but then the compulsion continues to build until they are compelled to act on what they hear. It is really quite sad to observe their struggle. Often medication can lower the compulsion without eliminating the hallucinations. But many people do not respond to medication and act out in ways that are harmful to themselves or other.
@underdogtoo (9591)
• Philippines
15 Jul 08
I shudder to think of the unspeakable things that have been done in God's name. Lots of times God and the devil have been convenient excuses for something done by human beings and I believe that there is a bit of craziness involved somehow. In every human being's heart beats a longing for something greater than himself and many crazy things have been done to assuage that longing, including animal and human sacrifices.
@Pose123 (21662)
• Canada
15 Jul 08
Hi Tee, The story of Abraham and his willingness to sacrifice his son Isaac, because he believed that it was what God required, is an excellent example of the difference between the way people thought at that period in History, and the way we think today. It is also a good reason not to take the Bible literally. Apparently, it was a common occurrence for the people among whom Abraham lived, to sacrifice a child to their Gods, so it really isn't strange that Abraham felt that he also had the same call. The fact that it was that special son that he had waited all his life for is not strange either, the idea was that you always gave the best to your God. Most people don't realize that The Old Testament was written for and by the people of that day. The things that God told them to do was what they expected to hear, because that was the way they thought. There are certainly people not much further advanced today, but if Abraham tried that today, at least in the western world, he would be locked away for a long time. Sorry I took so long on this, and I want to get on to your question, who are we to question the motives of God? This is where I believe we have be realistic. If God spoke to people six thousand years ago, or even two thousand yearsago, he still speaks to people today. To say that we have to believe that communication has ceased is nothing more than a cop-out. We have advanced( at least I hope so), beyond the beliefs of Abraham's time, and we no longer believe that God would ask up to kill a child as a sacrifice to him. If I awoke in the middle of the night with the feeling that my brother who lived alone a few blocks away was in trouble, and I went there to find him ill, and unable to call anyone, I'd feel that someone had conveyed a message to me. That to me is the difference in today's world and that of Abraham. Most people of that day also appeared to believe in a God who was sort of a superman, and while some may think that way today, their numbers are declining. Blessings.