Are You Educated Enough To Vote?

@ZephyrSun (7381)
United States
September 9, 2008 10:32am CST
In 1804, the United States government passed the twelfth amendment to the Constitution to establish the Electoral College. Before, the passage of the twelfth amendment, the Constitution referred to the electors as “the college of electors”. There are many different ideas as to why the Electoral College was set up for the United States everything from, the voters not being educated enough to vote for president, to the government wanting to protect the smaller states from the larger states giving each state equal power regardless of population. As for the larger state smaller state debate, I do not see how the Electoral College actually protects smaller states since they have less electoral votes. An expert on Constitutional Law from Yale, Akhil Amar Reed can be quoted as saying, “If one person, one vote is the best way to pick a state governor, why isn’t it the also the best way to pick a national president?” We all sure know by now that the Electoral College went against popular vote before, leaving some voters such as myself feeling like they should not bother voting because of this issue. Some people may or may not know that the Electoral College has actually gone against the popular vote four times throughout history. Doesn’t seem like that many times does it? But, isn’t once too many? Does the USA not tout its democracy? How democratic is it when your vote may or may not be counted? Do you feel smart enough to cast your vote or do you feel that the United States should get rid of this failed system? Or should we continue to vote and the vote may or may not be counted? What are your thoughts?
2 people like this
13 responses
@Wingedman (238)
• United States
10 Sep 08
First of all, The United States is not a Democracy. This country is a Republic or representational democracy. A true democracy would be chaotic as every decision would need to be made only after a poll of the entire effected population. With as many people as there are in the US, this is impossible. Heck the census takes years. Personal I think the Electoral college is pasee and needs to be abolished. Big State, Little State doesn't really matter anymore. Anyway compensation has been made in Congress for states population and such by all states having two senators and the House representatives being based on population and as we all know the real power in Washington, the kind that actually effect daily life, resides in the halls of congress not the Oval office.
@ZephyrSun (7381)
• United States
10 Sep 08
Wow Bravo! I appreciate the great insight. Although I think the power in Washington belongs to the lobbiest but I'll just say we are both right lol Thanks for the great comment!
2 people like this
@xfahctor (14118)
• Lancaster, New Hampshire
9 Sep 08
I ahve to admit, I am on the fence with this one. On one hand, I feel the electorial college is subject to instability in the voting proccess and can cause serious contesting in elections. On the other hand, it does make sure that small states like mine get propper reopresentation in government. I would like to see it at least changed so that the college delegates are legaly bound to cast their votes with who they are chosen to represent.
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@ZephyrSun (7381)
• United States
9 Sep 08
Ok X I see your point but would you explain to be how a small state with 2 electoral votes can out weight the larger states with say 54 electoral votes? Why should a candidate waste time in a smaller state when they could just work over the bigger states and a few middle ground states? Ok lets just say this to give a better example: say a candidate takes- California, New York, Texas, Ohio, PA, and a few other middle ground states (for the sake of this example lets take out the red/blue factor of each state) how could the smaller states even matter?
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@xfahctor (14118)
• Lancaster, New Hampshire
9 Sep 08
EXAXCTLY my point. 'Iddle states like mine (though new hampshire is considered signifigant symbolicly) get lost in the wash.
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@ZephyrSun (7381)
• United States
9 Sep 08
And it still doesn't sway you away from the Electoral College system? If I remember correctly isn't your state one of the states that split their Electoral College votes? Sorry not good with the little East coast states.
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@bobmnu (8157)
• United States
9 Sep 08
If you check a voting patterns by County you will see that a very small part of the country could control the election. USA Today did a map of the 2000 and 2004 election http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/vote2004/countymap.htm and it shows that major population centers tend to vote Democrat while the rest of the country votes Republican. In the 2000 election VP Gore carried 674 Counties while President Bush carried 2,439 Countries.Large Urban areas tend to have more Government jobs, more welfare, and more Colleges and Universitys. All these groups tend to vote for big government and more government spending. By having the Electorial College it makes sure the rights of the minority (non City Dwellers) are considered. This prevents the candidates from only addressing the needs of the large urban areas at the expense of the rural areas.
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@bobmnu (8157)
• United States
9 Sep 08
Red is /Republican and Blue is Democratic. You will see that the Blue is around Cleveland and I think Columbus.
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@ZephyrSun (7381)
• United States
9 Sep 08
I think Ohio is another California lol We vote all across the board. I can't tell if that is actually Cleveland in the Eastern area the counties are much too small. The little blue spot looks like it is either Columbus or maybe an outlaying county. Which both Cleveland and Columbus are big "urban" areas.
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@ZephyrSun (7381)
• United States
9 Sep 08
Thanks for the map but I don't really know how acurate it really is because according to the map Ohio, the state that I live in, shows very little Republican counties and yet over the years Republicans have ruled the majority of the time. Besides the fact that when if the weather is not great during election day "urban area dwellers" usually have an easier time getting to the voting polls than the "non city dwellers" do, well at least in areas that are in Ohio.
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@anniepa (27955)
• United States
12 Sep 08
I've been saying for years, even long before the 2000 debacle, that the Electoral College should be abolished. It's an antiquated idea whose usefulness is long gone. There may have been a good reason for it way back when but it certainly isn't one bit fair today. Once certainly is too many, especially since ONE of those gave us George W. Bush. I wish I had a time machine and could go back and change that election somehow just so we could see what things would be like today if there had been no second President Bush! Annie
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@anniepa (27955)
• United States
14 Sep 08
Here's something quite telling that I personally experienced; before the 2000 election a few of us at work were discussing it and one of my co-workers mentioned that he'd actually never been aware that one person could win the popular vote but the other could win the electoral vote and there for the election. All of us in the conversation - the guy above, a female friend and co-worker and I - were saying how we didn't think that was right and believe it or not, I even said that I wouldn't think it would be fair to the voters if Bush were to win the popular vote and Gore won the electoral vote. I said that in that way because there had been a lot of talk of that possibility, more so than the other way around. Not too surprisingly since the woman I mentioned is a die-hard conservative Republican, after it was all over she denied ever speaking out against the Electoral College and was quite pleased with how things turned out. She was and is a good friend but I think a tad hypocritical in this case. Annie
1 person likes this
@ZephyrSun (7381)
• United States
14 Sep 08
It is simply amazing. I am so glad that I am a Liberal and do not like in la la land. I love how some Conservatives believe that Obama is a Muslim and is going to sell out the US but they believe McCain when he said that Palin sold the jet and it was for a profit when it can easily be looked up. I wish I had those Conservative blinders, do you know how good my city would be if I did? lmao There would be no crime no ozone issues so on and so forth. Off topic for a few words. I keep hearing from the McCain camp that he is the man that will cross over and work with the other side, well Palin isn't. Read her speech at the RNC, she said "Harry Reid, the majority of the current do-nothing Senate...he not long ago summed up his feelings about our nominee. He said, quote, "I can't stand John McCain." Ladies and gentlemen, perhaps no accolade we hear this week is better proof that we've chosen the right man." Sorry in my opinion if working across party lines was actually something that the Republicans wanted to do then they wouldn't feel that they had made the right choice. Obama has voted with Bush and if you listen to Conservatives he has voted with him a lot, this is appartently the man that will cross party lines.
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@ZephyrSun (7381)
• United States
12 Sep 08
I am really surprised how many people do not believe that it has way out lived its usefulness. I imagine that when if falls against their person their view will change. Say the reverse of the 2000 election, Gore took the electoral vote and Bush took the public vote, I'm sure it would have been great for the nation but think of the outcry among Conservatives.
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@Bluepatch (2476)
• Trinidad And Tobago
10 Sep 08
I do believe that someone should be educated enough to make a reasonable and calculated decision to elect a President. Too many times, especially here in my own country, Trinidad and Tobago, the general population has been persuaded to vote for a party for the wrong reasons and governments have been known, again, as here in Trinidad, to deliberately inculcate a population with false concepts in order to retain a volume of votes. Its not that your vote doesn't count, its more that an educated vote is necessary for the proper election of a President or a government. It may seem like an individual vote can be discounted in your country's system but the necessity for an informed or educated vote is far greater than the personal feelings of a single person. This is my honest opinion. I hope I have not offended anyone, especially yourself.
@ZephyrSun (7381)
• United States
10 Sep 08
No Bluepatch I am not offended, I wanted honesty. I think that the nation in which I live is trying to spread democracy and it has its own issues with democracy. I know that some people aren't allow to vote in their country or the election is rigged to allow the "right" person to be elected. I should be greatful that I may vote but since I live in a nation that touts its democracy my vote as well as all of my fellow Americans' vote should count. Thank you very much for commenting.
1 person likes this
@agihcam (1914)
• Philippines
10 Sep 08
This is our responsibility, so we should do it even though we know that some of them or maybe our votes will not be counted. But we need to support the program of our government and our country as well.
@ZephyrSun (7381)
• United States
10 Sep 08
True. But I have a question for you since you are international, how does it look to other countries that the US touts its democracy yet sometimes votes in the United States do not count? I personally look at it as a "do as I say not as I do" type standard.
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@mehale (2200)
• United States
13 Sep 08
I guess that I will start off with your title question. Yes I wholeheartedly believe that it is very important that you be educated enough to vote, and I also like to think that I at least try to be. Now by educated enough to vote, I mean that you should take the time to research and investigate the candidates, check their voting records and compare them with what they say in their speeches, and figure out who agrees with you most of the time and who you believe will do the best job if elected. THAT is who you should vote for, and that is what being educated enough to vote means to me. You don't have to be a rocket scientist, but you do have to do your homework and research! Now then, as far as the electorial college, I have mixed feelings about this. Initially it did have a purpose and did serve it, however just like everything else in Washington it is now broken and being misused. I do believe that it is important that ALL states are given equal importance during the campaigns and the election, HOWEVER I also believe that it is important that the electorial college follow the popular vote and not go against it. This is a perfect example of the many things in our nation that are broken and desperately need to be fixed. This election year is really important in that we truly do need real change that we can believe in in Washington; unfortunately I really do not think we will get it no matter who is elected this go round!
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@mehale (2200)
• United States
19 Oct 08
You have got a point about the electorial college. But I think maybe it has served its purpose and needs to be reconsidered. And I have to agree with you about voting for someone because of gender. I heard a lot of similar comments about Hillary in the primaries. That is no reason to vote for someone. Thanks for the best response.
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@ZephyrSun (7381)
• United States
13 Sep 08
Well one of the "pros" of having the electoral college was that the nation was not considered educated enough to vote. I think it's a lame excuse now but back then when most weren't educated maybe it was a good thing. I don't know this election makes me wonder though if the electoral college is good or bad. I keep hearing people say they are voting for Palin because she is a woman and that just seems so absurd that you would vote for gender and not issues. I agree that this election will not change anything in Washington. Thanks for the great response.
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@annjilena (5618)
• United States
10 Sep 08
i hope so many have paved the way for us to vote
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@ZephyrSun (7381)
• United States
10 Sep 08
I feel that the citizens of the United States are educated enough to make an informed decision about voting but in my opinion the Electoral College almost leaves a stigma about the voting system. If the Electoral College always went with the popular vote than it really wouldn't be an issue but the Electoral College doesn't always go with the popular vote.
1 person likes this
@Taskr36 (13963)
• United States
9 Sep 08
Areas with lower density would be completely ignored without the electoral college. Politicians want to do the most campaigning with the least traveling. Right now we all know that Texas is an important state, but frankly, politicians have to cover a lot of ground to get their message out. They're ranked 26th in density which would effectively make them the 26th most important state in a popular vote election. California would be 11th. The result would be that states with smaller, but more concentrated populations, would be what really mattered. Campaigning would be focused on the northeast around states like Massachusetts, New Jersey, and New York. Now I know you want to think in the method of "each vote counts equally", but in such a system, the votes in the lower density states in the midwest would matter less and Presidential candidates would ignore them while campaigning, and subsequently ignore their desires after gaining office. The electoral college is not perfect, but it's the best we can do to make sure people's votes matter no matter where they live. You mentioned the popular vote has lost to the electoral vote 4 times, but that is inaccurate. Many people cite 1824 when Andrew Jackson won the popular vote, but lost the election. The truth is, he also won the electoral college. He lost that election because it was a four man race and at the time the law said that the winner had to receive the majority of the votes, not simply the plurality. In the end the House of Representatives elected John Quincy Adams. So the total is really 3 times the electoral college has defeated the popular vote. Sorry, just had to throw in a history lesson.
1 person likes this
@Taskr36 (13963)
• United States
9 Sep 08
Those are all valid examples, except as I stated, 1824 was different. Andrew Jackson won BOTH the popular vote and the electoral college.
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@ZephyrSun (7381)
• United States
9 Sep 08
I know I screwed up I should have referred to the election of 1876, S. Tilden won the popular vote and Hayes won the electoral vote (1 vote) even though Tilden won by over 200,000 popular votes.
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@ZephyrSun (7381)
• United States
9 Sep 08
When the Electoral College voted in the election of 1800 there was a tie. The election was then thrown into the House of Representatives, leaving them to vote on who would become president. This voting lasted over a month before the president could be determined. The president did not take office until March and most generally they take office in January. The next occasion that the Electoral College came into question was the election was in 1824 the House again voted on the president, after the election none of the candidates had the majority of the Electoral College votes to win. On Election Day in 1888 Cleveland won the popular vote yet Harrison won the presidency, because he won the electoral votes. The election of 1888 was very upsetting to many American people because Cleveland had such a large margin of votes over Harrison. Then of course in the 2000 election Al Gore won the popular vote and George W. Bush won the Electoral College, and became the president. The state of Florida was disputed and a recount of the votes started.
1 person likes this
10 Sep 08
I am not a US citizen so would not be voting anyway but, it seems like some very valid points - I try and vote when I can over here but find sometimes I just cannot be bothered as things seem to stay the same no matter who leads anyway! x
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@ZephyrSun (7381)
• United States
10 Sep 08
That's how some Americans feel when they vote and the person that they vote for wins but the Electoral College goes against their vote and elects the other candidate. But I'm sure that if the winner actually got the position things probably wouldn't change either.
1 person likes this
• Alexandria, Virginia
9 Sep 08
Time for a little history lesson. The electoral college was designed to respond to the concern that the masses in say NY or MA populated states would steal the election from the less populated states say iowa or vermont. The idea to compare the presidential election to state governor race is like comparing eggs with pine trees.The governor race is in a specific state and the presidential election is a national election. It would be foolish to abolish the electoral college since it has been the foundation of the usa successful survival through many crisis times.Our Constitution has stood the test of times and has been ammended from time to time. Ammending the Constitution is not easy;it should not be!!!Our current selection of candidates is not that great. Too bad Tony blair could not run for President but he barred by the US Constitution from running.
@jess_ica (11)
• United States
10 Sep 08
Honestly, no. And I wish I weren't registered to vote. I'm really quite an irresponsible citizen. I wish I had more time so I could read and learn more about everything involving politics, but I just don't right now. I'm thinking about looking in to seeing if there is a way to un-register to vote since I feel so irresponsible... and I'd rather not get jury duty all the time. ;)
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@ZephyrSun (7381)
• United States
10 Sep 08
The nice thing about registering is that when you move you have to reregister. I don't know if one can unregister, I would imagine you could call your local elections board and they would be able to tell you.
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• China
10 Sep 08
I think people who like you should not continue vote.you should struglle for your voting right.
2 people like this
@ZephyrSun (7381)
• United States
10 Sep 08
Thanks, I don't think that I would ever want to get involved with US politics, unless one has a lot of money it isn't possible to accomplish anything with the broken system that the US currently has.
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