"Crucified with Christ, and yet I live "
@owlwings (43915)
Cambridge, England
September 18, 2008 12:26pm CST
I found this quoted as a tag or motto the other day and it has been bothering me (or rather the logic of it has). I grew up being told that Christ died on the cross for the sins of the world - all men (Christans or not, by the way) - and that every sin I committed was like another nail or thorn in His flesh. I wasn't taught (by my Anglican mother and Baptist/Quaker father) that we are crucified with Christ. Far from it! Christ died on the cross (I was told) specifically so that we should not have to!
The quotation is one of Paul's (from his letter to the Galatians, chapter 2 verse 19). I would like to put it in context (vv 15 - 21):
"[i]We, who are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles, (yet) who know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves are found to be sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? Of course not! But if I am building up again those things that I tore down, then I show myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ; yet I live, no longer I, but Christ lives in me; insofar as I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God who has loved me and given himself up for me. I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.[/i]"
First of all, Paul is speaking to Jews in Galatia, who have accepted Jesus as the Anointed One, and not to non-Jews (Gentiles). As a Jew, he believes himself to be one of the Chosen People and it is obvious by his words that he considers Jews and non-Jews to be different. Jews, whether they accept Jesus as the Messiah or not, are bound by the Law: Gentiles (and Paul makes this clear many times) are not.
Paul's reasoning in the rest of the passage is, frankly, rather confused. I believe that he is struggling with two concepts that seem to him to be in direct conflict yet, because of his belief that Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God [not God, please note], he has to somehow make them tally. His logic at this point is, frankly, a mess!
So, in the context in which it was made, the quotation "Crucified with Christ, and yet I live" is actually intended to mean that the 'old Paul [Saul]' died (and he feels as if it was a crucifixion, with the one who appeared to him on the road to Damascus) and that the 'new Paul' is (as he perceives it at the time of writing) something like a zombie of the old Paul revived and imbued with the spirit of Christ.
While I respect anyone who has been able to identify with the intense suffering of crucifixion (and I have done so myself), I don't think that this was what we were meant to think at all. The life of Jesus was about loving and being one with our Father, the Creator. It wasn't about being crucified for our sins: that was the whole point (if you believe the message). Jesus died a horrible and lingering death so that we should not have to suffer. He died to show us that God (or whatever you want to call him/her) loves us and takes our imperfections and even anger towards Him into His person, as a mother calms a fractious child ... and still loves us.
After our temper tantrums and digressions from what we know is right, there should be sorrow but we do not have to feel crucified or punished. From the Crucifixion onwards, God does not punish us. He allows us to learn from our errors and still be part of His Kingdom. Once we understand that, we can begin to live with Him. Until we do, we are like a puppy with its tail between its legs, which is not how He meant us to be at all!
----------------
Ah well! A rant, a sermon ... or a topic for discussion?
If you are a Christian, did it make you think again about what you may have read many times?
How does this reasoning sit with non-Christians? Is there something of value, something that 'clicks' in what Paul says?
Even if you think the 'God' thing is all rubbish, what do you think of Paul's logic?
4 people like this
5 responses
@Springlady (3986)
• United States
18 Sep 08
Our sinful ways are crucified with Christ. We become new creatures when we begin a life with Christ. We know that we are saved and have new life...Eternal Life with Christ.
God bless.
3 people like this
@owlwings (43915)
• Cambridge, England
19 Sep 08
Nice words, Springlady, but what do they actually mean? I feel, as Paul did, that, somehow, the old candle in me was put out and a new one put in its place. I am the same creature, however (because God does not deny his creations), just with a new and better halogen bulb.
What do you mean by 'saved'? At the time I know I felt as if I was drowning but I called out and He answered. My experience was that nothing changed; that really the dark waters around me were imaginary and that He had always been there guiding me. The difference is that I now know it, rather than believing it.
@owlwings (43915)
• Cambridge, England
19 Sep 08
I often feel that Paul gets a little muddled sometimes. My feeling is that he is trying to prove something logically which is beyond human logic. Many others have fallen into the same trap and continue to do so.
@EvanHunter (4026)
• United States
18 Sep 08
I am not sure I am following your logic of what he is talking about are you saying that once you are saved than you are never in danger of sinning again? Paul also said I die daily, to me Paul is a prime example of someone who over came sin with a daily struggle and strove the whole time to reach the stature of Christ. You don't become an overcomer the day you repent you do it minute by minute and day by day. I am sure Paul felt at times he was crucified after all he gave up all for a chance to please God. I have no doubt that he lost all of his family and friends in one way or the other through out the years. Alot of the scripture you pointed out has to do the churches constant interference with old beliefs that you are a debtor to the law and can only be saved by obeying the law. If you constantly question your faith than you will chase your tail for the rest of your life and never accomplish anything.
2 people like this
@barehugs (8973)
• Canada
19 Sep 08
How can any person in his/her right mind believe this "Christian" Gibberish? Its a Scam that has been perpetrated upon the human race! A scam that's been ongoing for nearly 2000 years and there are those who still believe it! The truth is very simple to understand - God is Love! God's Love is Absolute. Absolute love demands Absolutely Nothing! What could be more easily understood or more Absolute?
Paul's logic you ask? Paul was the original Scammer!
2 people like this
@owlwings (43915)
• Cambridge, England
19 Sep 08
Well, I wasn't asking anyone to believe it (or not), Barehugs. I have to say that, personally, I tend to your way of thinking (and, indeed, what first struck me about the quotation was that it seemed so negative that it needed to be looked at in context).
I believe that Paul was an entirely convinced person. It seems to me, frankly, that he was a pragmatist who had been overwhelmed by love and didn't quite know how to handle it, especially at first.
@RazPenny (26)
• United States
19 Sep 08
I think this is where we can see Paul's "Jewish" credentials do not hold up. Being Jewish was never defined by blood, least not since the destruction of the first temple. Once the Judeans came back from Babylonia alone they were the ones who were holding the keys to their religious texts. They always held there was more to being Jewish than blood. You could convert and leave the Jewish religion. Once you joined the religion your blood was Jewish, and if you had a Jewish wife your kids blood was Jewish as well. So it doesn't make sense for a Jew who had trained under the infamous Gamaliel to not show understanding of this. His constant division of Jewish followers and Gentile followers is too odd. Either they are still following the same law given by Moshe which means the converts are now Jewish too, or they are no longer following those same laws and those with Jewish blood are no longer held to the laws given by Moshe. It doesn't fit...though if his claim of linage is true, then it makes sense. He knows a little of the Jewish religion but spent most of his time with Greeks. He quotes from the Septuagint, something a Pharisee wouldn't ever do since it is not the true translated text, he is obviously trained in Greek philosophy which was banned from learning by Jews. He is obviously Greek in nature and has a little bit of understanding of the Jewish religion.
2 people like this
@owlwings (43915)
• Cambridge, England
19 Sep 08
What you say is very interesting! I wasn't aware of the nature of the Jewish 'blood' relationship. It had occurred to me, though, that here is someone who is familiar with Jewish concepts but arguing in a Greek manner. I found that, I have to say, a little puzzling but I believed that a Greek education was not uncommon.
What you say makes a great deal of sense. I think Paul was only an average logician, too. He plainly struggles (as in this passage) but then who doesn't when trying to 'prove' the existence of God?
@RazPenny (26)
• United States
19 Sep 08
Greek education was banned by Pharisees. The Greeks were heathens and to learn their ways would have been violating Torah to the Rabbis back then. In Acts 22 Paul claims to be brought up, not just trained, by Gamaliel. Even the earlier mention of Gamaliel in chapter 5 play down what that claim would mean to a Jew. Gamaliel was THE rabbi. Up until Rashi, who was in the 9th century CE, Gamaliel was the authority when it came to Jewish understanding. If he had been brought up since birth learning from this man he would have no concept of Greek philosophy. Yet he echoes so much of Philo, who learned in Egypt and hence was very familiar with Greek philosophy. This is far too improbable to have happened. Plus, Pharisees only worked from the Hebrew Torah and wouldn't use the translated Septuagint since it was not written in the Holy Tongue.
