Who do we think is listening?
By Pose123
@Pose123 (21635)
Canada
May 17, 2009 9:18pm CST
Recently I read an article on prayer by Bishop John Shelby Spong and was so impressed that I wanted to get the opinions of my fellow mylotters. For those who are ready to give up on a belief in God, would this give you reason to think again? I have paraphrased the article below but have not taken nor added anything to the meaning. I'd appreciate your thoughts.
Most of us, quite unconsciously, approach the subject of prayer with a very traditional concept of God in our mind. This God is a personal being, endowed with supernatural power, who lives somewhere outside this world, usually thought of as "above the sky." While that definition has had a long history among human beings, it is a definition of God that has been rendered meaningless by the advance of human knowledge. This means that for most of us that the activity of prayer does not take seriously the fact that we live in a vast universe, and that we have not yet come to grips with the fact that there is no supernatural, parental deity above the sky, keeping the divine record books on human behavior up to date and ready at any moment to intervene in human history to answer prayers. When we accept this fact then prayer, as we have understood it, becomes an impossible idea and as can be seen, if we look around us, a declining practice for more and more people.
This leaves many people with just two choices. One is to say that the God in whom we always believed is no more, and take the easy way out by becoming an atheist.
The other is to say that the way I have always thought of God makes no sense anymore, so there must be something wrong with my definition of God. This gets us into a new way of thinking and that is when prayer itself begins to be redefined. Can God, for example, be conceived of not as a supernatural person, but as a force present in us and flowing through us? Then perhaps prayer can be transformed into meditation and petitionary prayer into a call to action. The spiritual life is then transformed from the activity of a child seeking the approval of a supernatural being to a simultaneous journey into self-discovery and into the mystery of God. It can also feed our sense of growing into oneness with the source of all life and love.
1 person likes this
12 responses
@1hopefulman (45111)
• Canada
18 May 09
Call me what you want but I see no reason for me to change my thinking that God as an intelligent being with qualities exists. Therefore prayer to me is communication with God, who is a spirit. I speak to Him and He speaks to me through His written word the Bible. For me, God is listening, God is watching, God is answering.
Again, I see no reason, no evidence, to the contrary! 
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@1hopefulman (45111)
• Canada
19 May 09
Thank you for tolerating a different view! I too have no problem accepting that not all believe as I do. I wish you well!
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@urbandekay (18278)
•
18 May 09
"...a force present in us and flowing through us?"
No, this is no help at all, it misunderstands both the nature of force and of God, rendering both less cogent.
A force flowing through us could be measured objectively. A force, by definition, is detectable to a third party, God is not. A force flowing through us would just another physical event, unalterable by our prayer or meditation.
But the Bishop is correct in stating that his concept of God is wrong and not a conception of God shared by I or many Christians.
all the best urban
1 person likes this
@urbandekay (18278)
•
18 May 09
I think you misunderstand, I was saying that I think the Bishop misrepresents the conception of God that Christians have, thus his argument is a straw man.
Yes, there it is always important to clarify what your conception of God is but the Bishops idea is incoherent and no use at all
all the best urban
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
18 May 09
Hi urbandekay, Thank you for expressing your thoughts on this. Just for the record, the bishop does not say that his concept of God is wrong, but that the old concept has been proven wrong by modern discoveries. Everyone has a right to believe as they choose and I'm not judging you. There are many who can no longer believe as they once did, and are seeking a new way of defining God. Blessings.
@headhunter525 (3548)
• India
21 May 09
Bishop Spong has been a very controversial figure. And it is a well known fact that he is clearly on the side of minority. It's because his view does not correspond with what Christians normally believe. Regarding the definition of God a personal being with supernatural power living outside the world... I can't agree with the definition. That's not the definition theologians traditionally believe though among Christian laity that could be there. I am also not happy with God being conceived as force... because one cannot have communion with some impersonal force. The very definition of prayer without communion, to me, is an oxymoron. So prayer to force, I think, does not make sense.
Good day!
1 person likes this
@Anora_Eldorath (6028)
• United States
23 May 09
Pose-
I very much believe there is a Divine, but I do not believe the Divine is what the Christian bible states. That is what I was raised with, and at the age of 36 I now know that most of that text is faulty logic, and that the Divine is nothing like what is portrayed. Of course, that took me years to even admit to myself.
I now find myself seeking the Divine in the things I do daily. I suppose I'm much like Emerson in that I know I can find the Divine in Nature, other people, myself, and things around me. I know I'm writing this very simplistically, perhaps the hour has gotten to me, but there was truth in what the Christ taught about looking at spiritual things with the eyes of a child. Perhaps we all just need to return to childhood.
Namaste-Anora
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@bird123 (10658)
• United States
23 May 09
God does exist. Religions and most people do not understand. You don't really need to pray because God hears every word of everyone. I know that is hard to conceive but true none the less. Will God save you from your troubles? Perhaps, if they do not get in the way of your lessons in life and those around you. You see, God does send adversity so that we all may learn. THINK ABOUT IT!!! If no one ever got sick, would man have any medical knowledge at all????? NO!
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@bing28 (3795)
• Philippines
18 May 09
Listenning is learning. If you pay attention and listen, for sure you'll gsin something. It does'nt mean however that you agree with what you've heard. There are times however that you have to listen and put into practice. Listening
to the words uf GOd. This time, we won't have to disagree but follow.
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@TLChimes (4822)
• United States
18 May 09
I often say that faith in something - even in our self - is very important. You (the Bishop) point out that God can be with in us. That I think is the key.
Prayer, a spell, meditation, reflection, can all be the same thing if taken in the light that we are asking for change, saying thanks, or looking for answers. If the desired out come is reached then we ask how? Was it our prayer? Was it our action or inaction?
It is easy to blame a God when things go wrong or don't come out as we would like. But to remember that we are God's instrument, or we ourselves are in control, is how we should be. Change can not happen if we stand still.
So if prayer gives us peace or direction then it doesn't matter if there is a God up there, in us, or no where. It is still all about us.
And we are all connected. no matter what ties us together, the string is still there. You and I touch each other's lives and thoughts. We are one in many respects even though we are different.
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
18 May 09
Hi TLChimes,Thank you for that well thought out response and I feel much as you do in this regard. I love the way you have put this for we do touch each others lives and thoughts."we are one in many respects even though we are different" - very well said. Blessings.
2 people like this
@mathss1 (1181)
• United States
20 May 09
Religious people are generally more calm than their non religious counterparts
People with faith less likely to panic under pressure.Religious people are less likely to panic under pressure than non-believers, according to the results of a new experiment.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/4944369/People-with-faith-less-likely-to-panic-under-pressure.html
I am a believer and my faith gives me a form of satisfaction ...
Have a gr8 time
Njoy
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@abkinsey (173)
• United States
18 May 09
"The other is to say that the way I have always thought of God makes no sense anymore, so there must be something wrong with my definition of God."
THIS! People often try to corner God into human limits, parameters, and definitions. We ascribe labels to God based on our own experiences and while God may encompass some of those things, God is always much more than what we can ever ascribe God to be. The process of discovering God and ourselves is a lifelong one, one in which we may sometimes find ourselves greatly mistaken, yet other times uncover amazing liberating truths. It is also very likely that as we grow and change, so to does our experience of God.
All of this makes me think about Parker Palmer and "the courage to be." We can only be in this moment. While our past shapes where we find ourselves, it does not define this moment. In addition, while this moment may shape our future moments, it does not limit them. We must find courage to just be. Some might ask "what" we must be. But that is the point. We don't need to be *something,* we must just BE.
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@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
18 May 09
Hi abkinsey, Thanks for responding and I feel that we think very much alike. It's true that there is only "now" and we just need to "be". I think though that we are "something" and eventually we will have a better comprehension of what that is, I agree though that for the moment it's not necessary to know. Blessings.
