Conversion -An Insult to God..?

@GADHISUNU (2162)
India
May 19, 2009 3:40am CST
In one of the responses to a discussions I had made a statement that Conversion from one religion to the other would not be necessary, to attain the end of religious life. My patent argument is GOD is ALL-Knowing, He has chosen to palce you in a particular position socially and religion-wise. This is fully in keeping with the "Path " for you. Now, if you convert to any other religion of your accord, by seeking it, because you did not "understand" the religion in which you have been placed or you lack the tenacity to seek the end being there: you are insulting God. He knows best how you have to grow. All you need to do is heed His decision and progress as prescribed. Now, one may ask what about if an individual chooses to change on his volition? Or the "instruction" to convert others as in the Abrahamic Religions? Of his own volition a person may need to "convert" to another religion, if he has no idea where he belongs and is only vaguely aware of his religion- like for eg.someone orphaned in a Tsunami at an age when he does not know his bearings. As for the Abrahamic Religions penchant to convert they would do well to convert those of their religion who would have gone astray, or changed to be atheists on shock.
5 people like this
26 responses
@murderistic (2278)
• United States
19 May 09
While you have seen me say before that I think it's an insult to God to convert to another religion for the wrong reasons, I cannot agree with your stance that one should stay with the religion they are raised in or they will be insulting God. I think staying with any religion that you don't actually believe in and have faith in is an insult to God. NOT converting to what you believe to be truth is an insult to God, because you are denying what you know to be the truth (whether you are right or not). This is an issue of family and culture over God. Always choose God.
3 people like this
• United States
20 May 09
I am in total agreement with you. God calls us to where he wants us to be. If we are listening to Him and follow His instruction we could never offend him. As long as God is our summit (that which we always strive for) we will be in His favor.
@GADHISUNU (2162)
• India
20 May 09
There mut a way to "see" God's call and human machination.Then your stand is OK.
@Frederick42 (2024)
• Canada
19 May 09
I never knew that anybody can insult God. In my opinion, God is so great and mighty it is not possible for us to insult God. However, your argument is good when you are facing a christian missionary. In my opinion, these people are more or less terrorists who go around the world trying to get converts. You as well as others have evry right to use any argument to avoid these missionaries. But to get back to the topic, I have come across a good number of people who were born and brainwashed in christian families and later, somehow they managed to escape the trap of christianity and changed into agnostics, pagans, hindus, buddhists etc.. So, God places a person in a religion and that is perfect for that individual. But somehow, the individual does not feel this 'perfection' as perfection' and thus, he changes to a religion which he considers 'perfect for him. God should feel glad instead of feeling insulted. As far as I see it, the soul takes birth in a particular nation, family etc.. Highly evolved souls freely choose an ideal place. The lesser evolved cannot do so and are born spiritually unconscious. So, their choice was imperfect and unconscious. But later in life, somehow some of these get trnasformed and change religions. The game of life will go on until one attains enlightenment or Samadhi. Until then, nothing is perfect. The God within you is perfect, but you will recognise that perfection only when you become enlightened.
2 people like this
@GADHISUNU (2162)
• India
19 May 09
Fred you have answered my question.For a believer God is defectless and error-free. God is the Creator and He makes the First Choice for an individual. He gives him Free Will to watch what he is going to do with it- whether he uses his Free Will to sin and move away from God or keep the covenant and reach Him. For him to follow he has laid out a path. If the individual were born as a Christian, he has been handed him the Ten Commandments. He had made covenant with Abraham. He has even deigned in His Infinite Mercy to send His Son to absolve him of all sins. Yet is it possible that he has not done enough, that you go and beg in the next house for food. How does your father feel, when he has provided food, you ignore that and go to the other man's house, and ask for it. Is it not an insult? My example and comparison to a worldly father are imprecise approximations. Pardon me for that. This just for a game insofar as you have concerned. Play if you want to. But I have got the core of your idea. It is just lovely.
@GADHISUNU (2162)
• India
21 May 09
WoW! That was a great one Man! All are "food" made in the same God's kitchen, how taking one instead of the other be an insult? Great! But you shouldn't wate the food you have one taken, isn't it? For it is said:[This is for Fizan Ali:] "AnnaM brahma,annAdo brahma" - The Food itself is God, the one who eats(The Guest) is God.
• Canada
20 May 09
For your first pargraph, I cannot compare God to an earthly father. The Earhtly father is too limited and is a person who commits mistakes just like anybody else. But God is defectless, unlimites, without any boundaries. He gives a person food; let us say 'Christianity'. But the other foods are also of God; other foods like Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism. If the person rejects a particular food that came from God and accepts other food which also came from God, I wonder why God should feel insulted.
1 person likes this
• Thailand
19 May 09
I was born into an Evangelical Christian family and at the age of seventeen discovered that Christianity just did not work for me. The Tsunami that cast me adrift was spiritual and it washed me into a sea of despair and confusion. It took years of learning and searching to find the spiritial path that was right for me. God, if there is one, does not place anyone on a path either religiously or socially. The most limiting thing you can do to yourself is to think that a god put you in the situation that you find yourself in so there is no reason to strive to better yourself. Enlightenment will not come to those who do not question and learn. Success is never found by following the path that others trod before you.
2 people like this
• Thailand
19 May 09
I don't think we are so far apart on this. The path that I finally found was Buddhism so I guess my use of the term enlightenment has to be understood in that context. I am a long way from enlightenment but I am at least on a path that may get me there in some future lifetime. It took years and a lot of help from some patient monks and teachers to free my self from the burden of guilt and imaginary sin that my early Christian teachers had saddled me with. In the end I have learned to still my mind and find that the only god that matters is the one that we and all living things are all a part of. I have not insulted that god by growing away from a Christianity that was wrong for me. My spirit could not grow in the confines of dogma imposed from outside my soul.
@GADHISUNU (2162)
• India
19 May 09
Chiang, I agree with you on the need to question and learn. I do not quite understand the sense in which you are using the word "Enlightenment". Is it in the sense of attaining sensory and rational knowledge that is free from contradictions? Or you are using in the sense of the Zen Masters or the Buddhists? To make one's path is fine if it has come to be as a consequence of your personal enquiry. My question as I have averred is aimed at people who have chosen to accept the existence of a God who delivers. But I do agree, with you that God as a Creator-Overseer-Discipliner and the like is definitely not required to obtain the Enlightenment in the sense I am referring to. But definite it is not attained by mere rational pursuits either. May be once you are "tired-out" after the process of rational elimination, and your mind has therefore attained a quietude then with or without God you will be an Enlightened Person. If you are however using enlightened in the English Dictionary meaning before the English speaking peoples had come in touch with the Orientals, that enlightenment is certainly the result of the honest pursuit of University Education.Thanks for the response.
1 person likes this
@GADHISUNU (2162)
• India
21 May 09
Excellent Man! Go On! Find Enlightment in the path of the Tathagata!What else can I say?
1 person likes this
@fizanali (478)
• Pakistan
19 May 09
Hi Gadhisunu, so you started this new discussion as you promised. This time I'll be simple and straight forward; What is your source of saying these statements ? Whatever statement you may say no need to quote them. At the end you will have to agree that you take these statements from a certain scripture ? If we find some mistakes or holes in your scripture then there is a chance that these statements may also be wrong ? Why to you choose the religion or belief of Hinduism ? If YOU SAY that it is not up to us to choose but God decides us to put us in a particular religion then WHAT is the source and proof of THIS statement of yours (being true)? You will agree that in the end it all comes down to seeing the authenticity of your statements or scriptures ? What ever Islam claims is from the Holy Quran and anyone (in fact everyone) is encouraged to find any mistakes in what it says and develop it's authenticity. And Islam does ask it's followers to preach the religion to all of humanity whether he be a devote Hindu or a lost child. You say we would do well to convert those only who have gone astray, first what is the source of this statement you make ? Second isn't it contradicting what you said earlier that in order for us to go to heaven we should follow Islam properly ? About the book you were referring to, it's quite difficult for me to get that book but first I would want to know your opinion because right now I'm having this debate with you and not the guy who wrote the book, do you claim that there are mistakes or anomalies in the Holy Quran ? If you do then you should tell me those anomalies that you find and we'll discuss them.
1 person likes this
@fizanali (478)
• Pakistan
20 May 09
First about the anomaly you stated: This is actually not an anomaly it is a situation and you've asked for the reason for such a situation appearing from an Islamic point of view and the basic Islamic point of view is that everything is actually 'Allah Ki Marzi' as said in the Quran. But you for no reason don't want me to give that answer so I'll give another; If a rich person enjoys more comfort then according to Islam he is also subject to more duties which he has to full fill like Paying Zakat, doing Hajj, doing sadka, helping the orphans etc all of these don't apply to a poor person. Actually it is all part of the test to see whether a rich person can spend his money to help others and whether a poor person can still remain thankful to Allah even though he is poor. Our belief is not that we get reward for our good deeds in this world but that we get reward in the here after. I asked you to find an anomaly in the Holy Quran because until you can do that I can use any quote, concept or assertions in it. Secondly if you will accept that there is only one God and Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) is the last messenger of God, then you have actually accepted Islam. If you can do that then your religion would be Islam and you'll only be a Hindu because you 'live' in Hindustan. When you say that you would edit some things like eating of meat then (first of all doing that wouldn't take you out of Islam) why would you do that? Why would you believe the Vedas and not the Quran in this matter? Do you think that the Vedas are more authentic then the Holy Quran? Lastly I want you to address and explain the contradiction I told you in the previous comment about 'Does God want us to insult him'?
@GADHISUNU (2162)
• India
19 May 09
Yes Fizan, I started this discussion because I didn't want to clutter somebody's discussion which was begun with some express purpose in mind and IMO that has been answered. Fizan, of what help to you will my quoting Hindu Scripture? First it will be Sanskrit. Then I will have to traslate it for you. No other proof is required tha the fact that talk of conversion to a Hindu -provided he is a practicing Hindu, and he has at least some very elementary understanding of his religion- you will hear only one refrain: He will oppose conversion. He will be vexed by the very idea of conversion. He will never give up his religion for anything else however great.And there is one difficulty in giving a "quote" about where it is said in any Hindu Scrpture about why one should not convert? I will not be able to find one.That is because conversion as an idea is foreign to Hinduism. Hinduism is one which believes we are born as per our desserts and that includes everything- include everything. Every Hindu who spends his time reading his Scriptures - mind you they are quite tough to understand, if he does understand- the first statement that comes out of his mouth is:[B]God make me a Hindu, in every lifetime[/B](I hope you must be knowing that Hinduism has for its backbone Karma and Rebirth as important concepts, which straight away are unapplicable to Abrahamic Religions. There is lot which extolls the path that one is reading about [Again a Hindu has practically infinite path options available to him, within the framework of Hinduism.] I will put it rather simply; It is possible to choose a path similar to Qur'An within Hinduism itself.Like One God.God as Creator. God as Different from Man. Everything, except of course permission to eat beef, for instance. I will put it in a very lighter vein: Linda Goodman who wrote books on Astrology, in her book on Sun Signs says under the head of Gemini Woman: To have a Gemini woman for a lover or wife is like enjoying polygamy within a monogamous relationship. Now,Hinduism is something like that - a conglomerate of a varieties of faiths. You will never be able to exhaust them all. Why all? Choose one you will never have a chance to get bored. It is intellectually stimulating. Choose whichever path you like. If one is impressed with Islam, you could construct a mini-Islam within H and, may be you may have to just edit out only those "principles" which are antithetic to the Vedas. Similarly, you could morph a Christian View within the Hindu fold. If you want to see how it all works, see read the writing of Srila Prabhupada: He has morphed a variety of H that is akin to Christianity. Give me a faith of your choice: I will give a pre-constructed one from withing H.
@GADHISUNU (2162)
• India
19 May 09
Fizan, you have asked me to pick an anomaly. Well, to be honest that goes against my grain. Still as you are insisting on it with a billion apologies to Mohammad (PBUH), I ask you this question: What [B]reason[/B] can you give for one man to be abjectly poor but a very 'nek banda' and the other to be very rich and having all the comforts in life. Give me an answer that does not involve or include: {B]Woh! Allah kI marzI hai[/B]. My question is simply this Abdul and Ayaz are both Muslims.Abdul follows Qur'An and is rich and comfortable. But Ayaz also follows Qur'An and is very obedient of His directives but wallows in abject poverty try as he may?
@krajibg (11923)
• Guwahati, India
19 May 09
Hi, My first point is even though you are atheist still you are a religious person. Religion is not a cut out piece of a log that it works only in one direction. If you peel off the religious coat from life, it would still be there. There would not arise any question of being Christian, Islam, Abrahamic, Hindu or Buddhism. This is in my view doe not either call for the volition as this in the larger sense speaks of Free Will and if you believe in God He has given Men this volition and therefore knowingly or unknowingly if any one chooses to convert into another religion there should not be any insult to God for God is too busy with other affair that what the insignificant men are doing is his lastest of the last look out or no look out at all. And the notion that God had placed everyone in the chosen field is a ludicrous hypothesis.
2 people like this
• India
19 May 09
Hi kragibg i agree with you . For some these religious really matters a lot but somehow we forgetting that there is only one God, one power which controls everything , every nature . He had taken many forms and came to this earth to help different people . There places where he took birth , people began to call him with different names . All religions is man made and not created by God . He is one and , consider all his created creatures as his children . I respect all religion and faith because i know with whatever name i call him , i will find him there .
1 person likes this
• India
21 May 09
It shows that your post contains mature content and i am not allowed to see it .If i want then i will need to change the setting in preferences . But i don't see any such option in there .Sorry but i cannot see what you replied but do any one of you know how to change the setting to be able to see mature contents ?
1 person likes this
@krajibg (11923)
• Guwahati, India
21 May 09
Ok I will tell you.
@bird123 (10632)
• United States
20 May 09
It's clear you do not understand God. I think you underestimate God as well. First above all else, God gives you freedom of choice. Since believing isn't important to God. He doesn't care which religion you choose. There does lie a question. Do you look for God or do you look for religion?? All the choices are yours. God will work around your choices to teach you great lessons. God has the sum of all knowledge. He is very very smart! That is why so few understand. It's all simple. Be who you must it's a part of the plan. And remember, everything you do in life will come back to you in time. It's the lesson of unconditional love.
1 person likes this
@GADHISUNU (2162)
• India
20 May 09
My dear bird23, God can [B]never[/B]be understood.His ways are inscrutable. God has given me brains to understand the ways of the world(wily and the good) and to understand the Forces and Power of Nature, in the form of Physics Chemistry, Medicine, Engineering etc., But that mind-brain is incapable of undrestanding Him, try till end of Time. Now, Free Will is given as a powerful weapon either to "cut" the ignorance that holds you back from Him or use it to fuel self-aggradisement and reamin separated from Him.You said it when you said "Be who you must"- That is precisely what I mean when I say take His bidding and stay and grow where He has put you. Unconditional Love can be given being in whichever religion you need or even without any religion also.
@livewyre (2450)
8 Sep 09
Your argument sounds a little too much like 'predestination' to be palatable to me - why even get up in the morning if God has placed you in bed, surely he will cause the means for you to get up, your required food for the day will just arrive and you do not need to lift a finger?? In act if God has placed you in your position in life and you are completely passive then you are a mere puppet - fine if that is your belief, but I'm afraid that is not good enough for me. I believe God wants to be sought and found, that requires me to apply my understanding and to be open to ideas, not to simply accept whatever life throws at me. God by definition is all-knowing otherwise he is something less than God, however the Christian tradition teaches that he is not all-meddling and allows us complete free-will so that if we turn to him it is entirely by our own volition, not because of the religion of our country or family or tribe. Your argument that a man needs to stay in the tradition 'where he belongs' seems remarkably narrow-minded to me. The result of this type of thinking is that there would be no new thinking or philosophy at all... What if you were brought up in a tradition that was objectionable to you - you would say that they must remain 'where they belong'? How do you think all the traditions came about in the first place? It certainly wasn't through everyone deciding to stay put, therefore what sense is it to say that we have to stay within these traditions?? I know my comments are directly opposing your ideas, but I felt I could not just let this lie without offering an alternative view.
@livewyre (2450)
8 Sep 09
Firstly - Thank you for your response, I was interested in your reply but naturally have a few issues with what you have said... "Hinduism is perhaps the only religion in the world that believes there are many many paths to God, and no one is particularly superior to the other." I am vaguely familiar with Hinduism and a few other faiths, and you will know of course that Christianity is a faith that states (as Jesus did in the Bible) that there is only one way to God, and of course that is where our paths fundamentally cannot meet. "If I am born(not converted to) a Christian I will faithfully follow the path laid by Jesus Christ and find Him. If I am born(and not converted to) a Muslim, I will faithfully follow Hazrat Muhammad(PBUH) and find Him." - Right there is the misunderstanding at the centre of our disagreement - One CANNOT be born a Christian, hence the expression to be born again - after all the early Christians were Jews! Christianity requires a change in the way we think whatever our starting point even if we are brought up in nominally Christian surroundings (ie a conversion - there is no Christianity without conversion) Your proposition assumes that God is common to all these faiths in which case, your argument would have a basis - This may well work from a Hindu perspective, however from a Christian perspective, it does not work at all. A Christian would reject the God of Islam (though obviously not the God of Judaism). In fact your argument could work between Jews and Christians and a Jew could argue 'why would God make me a Jew if he wanted me to be a Christian' That would actually make an interesting debate...
@GADHISUNU (2162)
• India
8 Sep 09
Dear Livewyre, You are entitled to your opinion, and I am not worried that your ideas are exactly opposite mine either.You are very welcome. But I would like to question the conclusions reached by you, however. Let me start from the most central one of your conclusions. That is, that there would not be any change or new philosophy at all if everybody took the view that, "where God has placed us is right". I am a Hindu by birth, conviction(because of birth), and practice. I do not know if you are aware of the varieties of Philosophies- not one- but as mnay as a hundred different ones are available within the framework of Hinduism? Hinduism is perhaps the only religion in the world that believes there are many many paths to God, and no one is particularly superior to the other. If as you have surmised if the conclusion of what I am trying to say were a do- nothing to the extent that 'one does not get up from bed' were the "tradition" that Hinduism had built in me, then there would or should not have been any philosophical tradition(s) in Hinduism at all. Please read any one Upanishad of your choice(though I for one, am not, comfortable with translations) and try to find whether there existed in the world anywhere within a 1000 years of its period any writing of comparable intellectual exaltation. The four most important ones are Brihadaranyaka Chhandogya Aitareya and Katha These are just the samples. There are 108 of them, and more. Whatever gave you the idea that I have anywhere implied that God should not be sought? That He will reach out for you just lying there and doing nothing? If you read the Upanishads you will know their main subject is How God must be sought and how He must be seen by throwing out the "residue" of sensory impulses and gotten to. What I meant to convey was simply this: If I am born(not converted to) a Christian I will faithfully follow the path laid by Jesus Christ and find Him. If I am born(and not converted to) a Muslim, I will faithfully follow Hazrat Muhammad(PBUH) and find Him. But if God made be born into Hindu family and I was interested in finding Him( and had not become irreligious due to shock, misguidance or unconcern by my parents to at least initiate me) and I convert then I am thinking that I am wiser than God, for He did not know I needed to be a Chriatian or Muslim or whatever. I was only saying I would not subscribe to such an idea. It is for me sacreligious. It is blasphemy for me to think that I am wiser than God! Whatever I said is only in respect of God-seeking, please do not extend it to obtaining mastery of Physics, Chemistry, Medicine, Engineering or Technology or for that matter good business sense or say victory in war...and any other sensory input driven knowledge acquistion. They all need "effort", "free-will", "sweating it out" or whatever you would like to call it.
@GADHISUNU (2162)
• India
11 Sep 09
A small nay a BIG error, by my stupid oversight: I am sure my Christian Parents would [B]not[/B] want me to be initiated into Vedic Hinduism...
@Aussies2007 (5336)
• Australia
14 Sep 10
GOD does not choose your freaking religion. Your parents do. So if you decide to change of religion, it is because you can see what the one you are in did to screw the life of your parents.
• Australia
15 Sep 10
No my God is not the creator. Our new Prime Minister in Australia does not believe in GOD. And Australia is surging ahead economically over the rest of the world. Instead of praying and relying on GOD to save us. We do the work ourselve.
• Australia
21 Sep 10
That's a much more sensible argument you put there, and I mostly agree with it. I do not have a problem with people wanting to put their faith in GOD. I do have a problem when those same people start preaching on how other should live their life. And worse, punish those people who break the rules of GOD, like adultery and abortion. I was watching an interesting documentary tonight, which recounted how Henry VIII banished the Catholic Church from England when the Pope refused him a divorce and went on to create the Church of England with the Monarch as its emblem rather than GOD. I have never seen a religious fanatic amongst the Church of England. And that's the way it should be. If people kept their religion and faith to themselve, there would be no war and no terrorism. Well, that might not be totally correct. But they would need to come up with an other excuse. Like the truth perhaps? lol
@GADHISUNU (2162)
• India
15 Sep 10
Is YOUR G-d not THE CREATOR? Does He not have the Intelligence to place you in circumstances best suited for your growth towards Him? If you cannot find Him you through one religion, you will never find Him in any other way. Cuz as you have rightly pointed out God does not show any preference for any religion.
• India
24 Oct 09
I think one reason why there has been a debate on conversion issue is because we don't understand other religions properly. At one point it is very simple, yet at another level it is complex. For example, when a Christian shares about the message of Jesus to a Hindu and in the process tells the man to throw away all the idols and then go to church etc etc, the others may read that as an act of conversion. And I think it's right for others to read it like that. But when a Hindu tries to explain that there is no need to convert anyone to any religion at all (like the way you are doing now) a Christian or a Muslim will read such message as an act of conversion. For a Christian or a Muslim religion is not only about rituals, it includes the whole aspect of thinking and living an so on. For them trying to define religion only in terms of rituals like namaaz, baptism etc would be a poor definition. I think when we discuss this topic we need to define very well what religion is and what conversion is. On one level we all need to convert; meaning, we need to grow in wisdom, we need to become more loving, we need to have a fuller understanding of truth etc. We discuss and debate to have one more slice of wisdom added to us. So in this sense conversion is needed. But at another level conversion is not needed: we don't need to pile up hatred that's already in every human heart, we don't need to edit our religious tags which is purely ritualistic and devoid of positive life transformation etc.
• India
27 Oct 09
I got your point wrt to conversion. I am not sure what the answer is regarding the sociological concern some people raise. But regarding your point I have my hesitation to agree. First, I don't know how atheist will be dealt with here. Would you say atheist should also be left alone? Secondly, for Christians conversion is an act of God, followers just share their conviction. And sharing their conviction is a part and parcel of their allegiance to their God as much as not committing murder is part of the whole package. For example, Muslim will say that not committing murder is part of their belief as much as offering prayers in a day is part of the package. So when a Christian is asked not to share his or her conviction about Jesus to others, he or she is being asked not to be a good Christian. Thirdly, even if we use the word 'God' each religious adherents have their own concept of God. The God Muslims worship is different from the one Christians worship, and the one Christians worship is different from the a Nyayikas or a Vedantin believe in. Since our definition of God is different therefore characteristics of God of each religious belief will also differ. For example, Muslim's God does not incarnate; whereas Christians God incarnates whereas Hindus God reincarnates. For Muslims it will never happen; for Christians it happened once, for Hindus it happen more than once. My point is that since 'God' is different for each one conversion then will not be an insult to the God Muslim or Christians believe in whereas it could be to the God Hindus believe in. I understand that there is sociological imbalance when one engages in propagation of one's religious belief, and sometimes it can be sociologically harmful, one one community perceives such activity as a threat to its survival. And I think the fear is genuine. Of course, all religions will say that we should not harm others but belief and action do not always go together; and it's true with all people. But suppose we were to enact a law that bans conversion activities or propagation of one's religion then the Law will deter others to be faithful to God. And since religion is a very deeply rooted and ingrained enterprise, people will still go against the law. And this can further create social unrest.
@GADHISUNU (2162)
• India
25 Oct 09
Your analysis of why conversion is emphasized and made a part of say Christianity and Islam is excellent. Like you rightly said, it enjoins as one of their religious duties to spreead the message with a view to converting. On this I had had a very detailed discussion with my classmate a Christian [It was way back in the late seventies]. The conversion here I am referring to is for someone to do so to a person who is practicing one religion preferably that of his birth. Every follower of every religion would say that his/her religion was revealed by God in some manner- to a predesignated prophet in the case of Judaism, Christianity and Islam and the Vedic RiShis in the case of SD. And our birth somewhere by that I mean in some religious background is also ordained by God, otherwise we would have been able to consciously choose our birth! And every religion that believes in a God holds Him as the most hallowed and as The One of the Highest Intelligence and Wisdom. Hence there could be no mistake in His Choice. The kind of conversion of heart that you have and some well meaning Christians here have explained, is all well accepted. Strictly speaking, that could happen without any religion at all. I might even say, without the need for a God even. Buddhism for instance does not have a God but the responsibility to possess all the qualities that you have talked of all emphasized and practiced by the follwers, are there for all to see.
@Bluepatch (2476)
• Trinidad And Tobago
19 May 09
God did send His Son into this world and all you have to do is believe in Him. Forget pride, you'll lose with that.
1 person likes this
• Thailand
20 May 09
God did send her sun into this world.
1 person likes this
@_sketch_ (5742)
• United States
6 Jan 11
I don't see how conversion is an insult to God, or any god for that matter. I personally don't believe in any god, but it makes no sense whatsoever that God gave us free will, yet punishes us for using that gift. Especially when converting from one Christian religion to another; why should the way in which someone worships the same god make any difference?
@_sketch_ (5742)
• United States
7 Jan 11
If He is all-knowing then how do you know that he did not plan for an individual to convert to another religion? I still see it as no insult.
@GADHISUNU (2162)
• India
7 Jan 11
For one thing, "conversion" as used in this post is not about the "conversion" to belief in God and the ministry of Jesus; I mean here the true baptism, and not the ritual. The conversion that is meant here is about the conversion from one's "native" religion to another. God is All- knowledge, He knows best what is the "path" for a particular soul. Since it is not possible to say that [B]this and this alone[/B]is the path to Him, He has chosen the best for us. Hence if we swerve from that path well-chosen by Him, it is like saying, "You[The Omnipotent,Omniscient,Omnipresent Lord] do not know to choose, I[an insignificant individual, who needs to know Truth in bits and pieces and that too empirically in the first place]shall choose the path.That would be conceit.In this sense it is "insult". As I have said previously, insult may be too strong a word, but was brought in for "emphasis". Since any and every path leads to Him and Him alone and it is We, through our respective, Holy Books give different names to God: YHWH, Allah, Krishna, Ahura Mazda....but that doesn't compromise His Oneness.And above all anything that is One of its kind need not have a name at all in the first place. Hence, it doesn't matter where you are born, which religion you practise. All that matters is you practise it well. In fact your last statement itself can be taken as an answer too. This is the problem that arises because of applying linguistics to an Enormity that is beyond the compass of Logic and Language.
@Vaddiba (190)
20 May 09
"god" is all-knowing. How is it possible for ANY human being to maintain their credibility and sense of truth by making such a statement? Throughout the history of humanity, has any "god" stepped forward and declared, "I am god and I'm all-knowing and I can prove it to you?" It continues to boggle my mind that there are people on this earth who can make such statements and treat such statements as if it is a proven FACT. Let me put it more simply using a question: Is "god" all-knowing? The only truthful answer is ... NOBODY KNOWS Why do people continue to pretend that they KNOW what this "god" is by making statements such as "god is all-knowing?". How can any honest human being treat that statement as if it is a fact? Beats me.
@GADHISUNU (2162)
• India
20 May 09
Dear Vaddiba, In this discussion the assumptions are: [B]You accept the Existence of God.[/B] Thus there is no questioning that. For simplicity, if we consider all of humanity as the Universal Set(a la set theory), then we "define" three disjoint sets. That means taken in pairs any sets have "nothing" in common. They are: [B]Atheists(A)[/B]- Human Beings who do not believe that there is any Super-ordinate Being which controls the Universe.Whatever Natural Forces and Energies there are, only exist. [B]Agnostics- (G)[/B] - People who deny the knowability of the world. IOW those who hold that whether God exists are not is cannot be decided. So they neither say God does not exist nor that He does. [B]Believers(or so-called Theists) - B Those who believe that a Super-Ordinate Being who controls and "runs" the Universe according to a Plan exists. The so-called Natural Forces or Nature in general is subordinate to His Will. None of the above "stances" considered as statements are provable by Logic. Hence the choice to belong to any of the above sets is the individual's. The statement: "God is All-Knowing" makes sense only to the members of B. If you do not belong to this set there is no need to worry. You can simply bypass this discussion. FYI I belong to a Religious Group which holds that no effort must be made to convince or convert a non-believer into one. Instead the efforts must be expended in strengthening the belief of someone who does.
@GADHISUNU (2162)
• India
21 May 09
Vaddiba, YTou are welcome to stay on in this discussion join or follow it if you feel like. I have made my point and your question, "How is it known that God is All-Knowing or is it just another one of those "assumptions". As a dialectic question it does make sense to ask. That would then be just to check how many such assumtions need be made to proceed in the direction of the Believer. God is described by the believers of any Religion- this is one thing in which almost all religions [that posit a Super-Ordinate Being] seem to agree- that is such a happy thing: God is Omnipotent(Almighty)-Omnipresent(Is everywhere at the same time for All time past Present and Future) and Omniscient (All Knowing-Past Present and Future). The one plausible argument that could be given for these First Three Attributes is: Otherwise He could not have created Everything- From the Cosmos or Multiverses to the Atom, Quark, or whatever is the vanishing point of Reality!{Omnipotent} He is Omnipresent- Otherwise you need to search for Him in some specific place which if one does not know would miss Him even if one would want to get to Him badly. He is Omniscient- Otherwise He would need to told specifically of anybody's need. Being Omniscient- you need not even openly voice your need! However all this is needed for and in Religions that are built around a Benevolent God. But there are religions like Buddhism and Jainism and for that some of the sub-philosophies of The Vedic Religion too that do not posit a God-like Being. They are perfectly fine religions with exquisitely beautiful presentation of how this Universe operates- I mean as NO GOD, NO PROPITIATION religions! The three Vedic sub-philophies that do not posit a Brahman(well that is how He is referred to in The Vedas)are: The Sankhya, The Nyaya and the VaisheShika systems of Philosophy do not posit a God. But then they accept the authority of The Veda as the Ultimate Testimony of extrasensory reality. So, strictly speaking are not classified as Atheistic Philosophies. Whereas within the ambit of The Vedic Religion(The so-called Sanatana Dharma or Hinduism as popularly known)only Buddhism, Jainism, and the Charvaka Philosophies are classifed as Atheistic. Of these Buddhism is silent on God and His Existence. Jainism denies explicitly and Charvakas even go to the extent of making fun of God. I hope I have given some insight into where I am coming from.
@Vaddiba (190)
20 May 09
Hello GADHISUNI, I understand the assumptions as it relates to those who believe in the existence of a "god". I'm simply saying that those who claim that such a "god" is all-knowing; those people cannot be interested in truth because those people cannot present any case that supports such a statement. So, let's assume that this "god" exists. How do believers draw the conclusion that this "god" is all-knowing? What is the foundation of such a statement? I don't want to take your discussion in a different direction. I'm just expressing the view that there are some statements that seem to parade as truth, when in fact they are mere expressions of what people WANT to be the truth. So, some people say ... "god is all-knowing". Is that a fact or just human speculation and imagination?
• India
19 May 09
God didn't made religions , religions were made by human beings . He just sent us on this earth to live in harmony with other creatures .He never instilled or forced to worship only one God or anyother god . I am hindu but i bow my head in front of every god . These religious divisions have been created by human beings not by God . Infact when the he first created earth , there was no division of any relious bekiefs between us . He just sent us to live in harmony with other creatures not get divided by any social values . Sorry if i am hurting any feelings of religious matter but i have always been taught..... "There is only one god and we call him by different names , we recognize him by different face , but he is one only one ." So i don't believe there is any insult to God if anyone change his religion , he is only changing to a different way to serve him and pray to him with a different name.
20 May 09
A man who preaches to the liking of his own ear has a fool for a congregation. Respect of all is the nearest way to God
2 people like this
@GADHISUNU (2162)
• India
20 May 09
As I can see from several of the people's stances here it is ONLY the HINDU who is "taught" to respect all religions on par with his/her own. The rest "bask" in the assumed "importance" of their religions. They keep citing the "proof" within their own Scriptures. Among the other religions only some who break free of Scriptural injunctions and "think" begin to understand that there is a basic flaw in taking a Scriptural injunction as a "proof".
1 person likes this
• India
19 May 09
Sorry for my typo mistakes , my keyboard just missing few letters and i type in a jumbo speed lol .
@xarex777 (467)
• Philippines
19 May 09
i agree with you.. like here in our place, many people who were catholic moving to other religions.. they say that they will be saved.. my idea is that they're saying that we only have ONE GOD but why are they arguing with our beliefs? our God and their God is the same.. They just call their God by different name..
1 person likes this
@GADHISUNU (2162)
• India
19 May 09
True.Thanks.A person who converts thinking there is something wrong with his religion whatever it be does not simply understand his religion. If one a Catholic, how does it matter that he has to become something else to be saved. One can be saved as a Catholic. Thanks you have understood the true import of my question and answered it from the point of view ofa believer. I always liked this statement of Mahatma Gandhi: "I want a Muslim to be better Muslim, a Hindu a better Hindu and so on." Nothing will ever be achieved by conversion if a person hasn't bothered to be sincere about his religion. He could choose to be an Atheist and eschew religion altogether. That is a welcome situation. Thus if you find something wrong with your religion strive to set it right, not simply desert it.
@tarachand (3895)
• India
21 Oct 09
I feel that religion is so personal a choice that no one has a right to interfere in someone else's choice in any manner whatsoever, even as a parent of a child that has attained majority or one's own spouse. The biggest problem with the Abrahamic religions is that they generally use coercion, force and try and glorify their own religions by running down or twisting the beliefs, texts and rituals of others. They do this publicly and are generally averse to any form of censure - and they have the globe to back them - two of the three Abrahamic religions have a major portion of humanity following them. In a country such as India, in the name of secularism, no religion can be abused or run down by Hindus, but the Hindu religion has to be tolerate criticisms and insults from all, with active government support as well as support of the ever so very secular media which blows out of proportion wrongs done to the so called scheduled castes and minorities, but does not speak much about the reverese casteism so very prevalent today due to vote bank politcis or the ill doings of the Indian minorities unless they resort to terror. (I would like to point here that I didn't know my caste until I was asked to fill up my college admission form at the ripe age of 17 and I don't particularly subscribe to any religion per se)
@GADHISUNU (2162)
• India
26 Oct 09
Tarachandji, If we only get into the political ramifications of religion which there are, then we really get into an inextricable mess. Do you notice one thing? It is only Hindus who are concerned about conversion! It is again the Hindus[I mean SD-ites] who feel in conversion the dignity of religion is being violated. But then we should conrinue to do the 2c that is necessary to spread goodwill and coexistence concepts whether it is in the name of religion or politics. Thanks for the response.
• United States
22 May 09
If G-d knows me well, then He Knows that the religion that is forced upon me will have the opposite effect He wants. I will begin to hate that religion and become indifferent to Him.There are many paths for a reason.People are different and need different things.All paths lead to the Superior Being regardless the name. Converting just means you want a relationship that is wriiten or practiced differently.
• United States
23 May 09
You are so welcome. Sometimes I think humans free will and G-d's plan can't really fit together
@krajibg (11923)
• Guwahati, India
21 May 09
Mr,gadhisunu, It seems you are up to preaching here but know that all are not fool to be befooled by your theory. As I said, I can with my 'Free will' do anything and I wouold be responsible for my act. And with your vast study like that of Dr. Faustus or like the journey of Dante to hell, would like to say that conversion is a sin or an insult? I do not think that God did write anywhere that Conversion is an insult.
21 May 09
I beleive you read way too much into his statements. He was not saying that God thinks it is an insult. God has many names and faces but there can be only one God, so conversion is nothing to God. It is Man who gets so upset with conversions, and some of those actively seek to convert. I seriously doubt you will ever find This poster ever preaching anything.
@GADHISUNU (2162)
• India
21 May 09
Mr Rajibg, I am not preaching. Please know that for sure.Having been with a particular thought process- called the Hindu way of Life, I have developed a regard for one of fundamental pricnciples of Hinduism that I liked. Hindus neither try to convert others, nor encourage conversion by belittling others. I have already clarified this point to Espeth what my stand is, and why I have been slightly harsh in using the word "insult". I am not blind to what is happening in India. Way back when I had a discussion in 1976 with my Engg college classmate(a Christian), this was my only objection even today after 33 years my stand remains the same. Change must be voluntary without any sort of inducement or exploitation of a helpless situation. My and my friend were on a friendly banter on this as we were walking to the Evangelist Dr.Billy Graham's Good News Lecture. Please do not attempt teach tolerance of other faiths to a Hindu. It runs in his blood.
@cannibal (650)
• India
7 Sep 09
To be honest I was kind of apprehensive about your stand since as you know I don't believe in any God, leave aside a God who needs to be taken care against blasphemy. However, I then stepped into a believer's shoes and re-read all the posts here twice. I think I'm getting your point. (After all I've got Hindu blood in my veins!) Indeed if I were a believer, I would have thought tons of times before taking such a step, even if it were out of volition. But then you should also note two points: 1) The foundations of the Abrahamic religions is laid on this very assumption: That theirs are the only truly unmatched ones and others handiworks of the devil/Shaitaan. So the converts are not to be really blamed for belittling their previous faiths, if you ask me. 2) What about the conversion of someone of the Abrahamic faiths to any of the eastern paths? Quite frankly, I have seen only a few people turning to Hinduism because of a particular Hindu 'God'. Most of the apostates from the Abrahamic faiths first turn atheists and then they turn to Buddhism or Vedanta or Taoism or so on, obviously because the earlier type of 'God' is not existent anymore. So would not that be an insult to the God? Anyway, my point is that such people would not have any choice since their religions do not allow them to be atheists, or have a different version of God. So again these people are out of picture. The bottomline is that an average Abrahamican does not consider other religions to be valid and so he would not agree with you; but if I were a (Hindu) believer I would have since according to me all religions would be the same and equally true.
@GADHISUNU (2162)
• India
8 Sep 09
Csannibal, if one is choosing to live by Vedanta esp. Advaita Vedanta or for that matter the three orthodox NO GOD systems within the SD framework viz, Sankhya, Nyaya and VaisheShika which are unfortunately no more current.For these systems aspects like insult do noteven make sense.I am talking from a dualistic point of view where God is some Super-Ordinate Power with all the knoweledge to decide on where a person must end up.Once you accept such a God then he is an unerring God! If He has chosen a path for one by putting in some place then you are considering yourself wiser than He. That is what I am rather calling insult rather harshly! I like Gandhijis stance: He did not want a Hindu to become a Christian nor vice versa. He wanted each of them to be Good H or a Good M or a Good C or whatever. I like this stance. Tghe Abrahamic Faiths would need an "education" of another 1000 years of good normal science to understand the limitation of human mind and see byond the correctness of their Scripture.
@cannibal (650)
• India
8 Sep 09
True, I got your point, you were talking about God and His worship at a personal individual level. Everything only in the mind of the still believing individual only. Acceptable!
@uoriej19 (34)
• Philippines
24 May 09
No its not an insult. God understands us the we are in search of the truth. Whoever god we may lay our faith to, the real God is still with us.
@GADHISUNU (2162)
• India
8 Sep 09
That is a nice way of putting it. Thanks for the response.
• India
2 Jul 09
Hi, to your fantastic thoughts, i would like to add some of my own. Talking about conversion is secondary and i take up the primary topic of religion here. In my views, religion is just an imaginary boundary crafted by humans to discriminate humans, nothing else. The basic difference is between the faiths and deeds the people perform and should be common to all religions (as the God monitoring all religions is the same). So, nothing like conversion or discrimination would ever arise if one faith and one God is accepted and no religion is ever talked about. Thus, not only conversion but also talking about religion is an insult to humanity(not to God, as we are nobody to insult Him), but a liability to be punished by the God.
@GADHISUNU (2162)
• India
8 Sep 09
If you want to stay out of the ambit of Religion and look at humanity then I don't see how this discussion might interest you.Sure if there were no divisions such as religion then we may be way too happier. But do not worry humanity will continue to invent newer and newer controversies to keep up strife.Thanks for your response.