IRS Can't Prove Tax Liability

United States
August 26, 2009 5:33pm CST
I have been looking into taxation in the US and how legal they really are, i find more and more proves that most peopel shouldn't be taxed. Look at this link, it has an explanation of how one lawyer proved in front of a jurry that most people are not liable to pay taxes. http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56855 Wouldn't it be wounderful if we didn't have to give away over 20% of our wages and salaries? And many think it's too much to ask peopel to give 10% of their money to church (which i think it is too much to ask anyway lol). does government has a right to ask for that much? better yet, does it have a right to ask for any money at all? according to the constitution of the US the answer is NO.
1 person likes this
5 responses
@bestboy19 (5481)
• United States
27 Aug 09
The difference between government and churches is that government can bully you, churches can't. You give to a church because you want to give. Except that the man had the Constitution on his side, I'm surprised the IRA didn't take the case farther.
1 person likes this
• United States
27 Aug 09
Best, There was a church in my area that did bully people, and they got in trouble for that. You would be surprised at what some of these mega churches have, one in my area had a "security" group that made sure that people were tithing the correct amount. They were asking for W2's, address for employers if they didn't have them so they could get them from them, then even wanted copies of W2's sent to the church. There are some pretty scary places that call themselves a church.
1 person likes this
• United States
27 Aug 09
I actually have been to a church that more or less demands the money. You do have a choice to say no, but they put you into a situation where you don't feel comfortable if you don't donate. Basically in most churches they have a container where you can place the money, in some of the churches i've been to they actually walk around with a basket and come over to everyone who is in the church and ask to place money into the basket. One of the reasons why i stoped going to church lol. PS: IRS did try to take it farther, but he knew what he was doing and got out of it every time :)
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@bestboy19 (5481)
• United States
27 Aug 09
There may be some churches that try to force you into giving, and that one that wanted W2 forms had their nerve; but you won't get arrested and end up in prison if you don't give to a church, and even if they bully, they can't force you to give. You can go to another church.
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@xfahctor (14128)
• Lancaster, New Hampshire
27 Aug 09
Dicey line of thought there. There are aspects of this that are technicly correct. However, the 16th amendment, propperly ratified or not, is there in the constitution, we're stuck with it, at least for now. Then we also have the fact that the federal government hasn't given a flying krap about whats right or legal anyways, so we have all sorts of U.S. tax codes that are accepted as enforcable law. I believe what needs to havppen is we need enough states to begin the process of at least officialy threatening to get the 16th amendment removed from the constitution. Cut off D.C. life line, money, OUR money. Either by the removal of the 16th amendment, or in dire cases, simply begin with holding federal tax payments the states collect on behalf of the federal government until they begin compying of the terms set out in the contract drafted by the states to create the federal government.
1 person likes this
• United States
27 Aug 09
we can also outrule taxes if at least 50% of people will simply not file taxes. Taxes are actually optional, we don't legaly have to pay them, we just don't know what papers to file to refuse to pay legaly. There were people who refused to pay and were taken to court for it, since they didn't file the proper forms to refuse to pay taxes, they didn't win and i guess are now in jail... The government did a perfect cover up by giving a way out but making it so confusing and hard to find that almost no one can actually find it. Not only that 16th amendment was never ratified, they illegaly remover 13th amendment and replaced it with 14th. the 13th amendment, unlike 16th was ratified, but it was remived anyway. Basically they don't give a darn about law at all and just do whatever they want to. I was actually looking into the history of the US citizenship, and it too is a total bs. You really don't have to be a US citizen or US leagal resident to live and work in the specific state, you have to be state citizen or resident. They offered US citizenship after civil war to protect former slaves from possible injustice. In case people were not protected by their state, they could take up the US citizenship and be protected by the federal government instead. The problem is, that if they are protected by the US, they have to play by the rules of the US, one of these rules is fighting in war whenever US thinks you should and paying taxes to the US. But we don't have to be US citizens. You can at any time choose to not be a US citizen and go back to being a state citizen instead, but it's very hard to find the proper way to do that too. If there wouldn't be a way out of citizenship however, we would be able to sue the US for fraud because they forced us to become citizens at birth while it too is supposed to be volunteerely done.
@Rollo1 (16662)
• Boston, Massachusetts
27 Aug 09
He's the only guy I ever saw win a case like this against the IRS, but it seems he got away with it because the jury believed he did not have criminal intent. They believed that he believed he didn't have a legal obligation to pay taxes. Courts have thrown out tax arguments over and over. I would like to think this is a change in that trend but I doubt it will ever happen. The Supreme Court would never go along with it. Government has a vested interest in keeping their revenue coming in.
1 person likes this
• United States
27 Aug 09
I was looking into ways to not pay taxes, it seems that there are some peopel who found a way to do it. basically the only reason we pay taxes is becaseu we never filed proper documentations to refuse to do so. If US government wouldn't give an option to not file, they can be charged with fraud, but they did give this option, they just made it nearly impossible to find a way to do it. People who found out exactly how to do it are now living tax free. Must say, it is very hard to find this way out, i've been looking for 3 days now, sitting on the internet almost all day long researching haven't found a way yet though... some sites offer to send disks and forms that show how to do it, but it costs money so i'm reluctant to do it. the trick is that if you file one thing wrong, you can go to jail, have to really know how to do this to get it right. So far i found information about alternative tax form, instead of 1040, peopel can file 1099oid and some say it is a huge help, but i have to look more into it first. The other thing i found is UCC-1 form, fust didn't find how to file it yet :(
• United States
27 Aug 09
The problem with this logic is that we wouldn't have any money for alot of vital things. How do you think our military is paid? Do you know that the government is the number one employer in the coutnry? Unemployment would go through the roof, and cause a huge financial crisis. No one likes to pay taxes, but they pay for more things than we ever think about. I wonder if this guy pays his taxes?
• United States
27 Aug 09
I was looking into the history of taxation for the past few days and found out that we really don't own anything to the government, in fact, government owns us money. When gold and silver was taken by the government and replaced by federal reserve notes that are not backed by gold and silver, government ended up in debt to the peopel from whom it took the gold and silver, to us. govermnent is making money on things other then taxes as well. Government is making money on taxing import and export as well as sales taxes. According to the 16th ammendment (which is arguable leagel since it didn't recieve 3/4 of the states support) only government employees can be taxed. As for the unemployment, if the big corporations wouldn't be forcing small businesses to close and government wouldn't be taxing privatley owned busnesses out of existance then perhaps all the unemployed could open their own business and be self employed.
• United States
27 Aug 09
yes it is, this country was build by the peopel who wanted to have their own little businesses and work for themselves, it is no longer that way. I would personally love to have my own little store where i can sell things i make, but after seeing how so many little stores like that were taxed out of existance i'm simply not sure i can do it financially. There was a smal health food cafe not far from where i live, they had to close because they couldn't pay all these taxes. With places like that what sometimes happens is that IRS decides to tax them by the amount they made in one day times all days they are oppened. The day IRS decided to pick to see how much they make was the day they had a birthday party in their cafe, so they made a lot more money then they do on regular days. IRS taxed them according to this ammount instead of the actuall ammount they made in a year. Result? instead of a health food cafe there is a Pork Stake House that sells very unhealthy, fatty food.
• United States
27 Aug 09
thegreatdebater, I definitely agree. I hate paying taxes as much as anyone but without taxes the government has no money to pay for the laundry list of services they provide to people including the military. No one wants to pay taxes but as soon as they need help they are lining up for the government to help out. You cannot have it both ways
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@diamania (7032)
• Netherlands
27 Aug 09
USA is a bit of a mess when it comes to federal, state laws and such. I can imagine that US citizens would get confused on all those laws and differences in laws between states and the federal laws and such. So it wouldn't surprise me if lots of people would actually pay tax while they aren't liable.
@diamania (7032)
• Netherlands
28 Aug 09
But why does (almost) everyone pay tax when they are not even liable to do so? Doesn't make sense to me.
• United States
28 Aug 09
well, you have to file some papers and fill them in properly to get tell them properly that you don't want to pay taxes. They basically made it insainely hard to find a way to volunteer yourself out of taxation. The messed up part is that the government actually owes us money, they have to give money to us, not the other way around. When silver and gold coins were removed by the government, they took it from the people and they have to pay it back, but to get it back you also have to file tax form 1099oid a certain way or they will not give it. They made it as confusing as posible so peopel would keep on giving them the money. I'm just starting to get to the bottom of it and starting to find all the forms i have to fill out, i now have to find exactly how to do it, becaseu it you don't do it right, it wouldn't work.