TRANSITION from Fossil Fuel to HYDROGEN create World War 3?
By Boyetski
@Boyetski (986)
Philippines
September 7, 2009 12:24pm CST
I was thinking since the birth of hydrogen energy 30 years ago. Why does it still out of our market? Why do we still pay for fossil fuels that pollute? Is it because the transition to fossil fuels to hydrogen fuel will ignite World War 3? That will soon send us back to cave man era with no bank accounts and so on?
That would be devastating...
3 responses
@Biomechanoid (2922)
• Estonia
7 Sep 09
I think there is no way that changing to hydrogen fuel could start a war. Well, if hydrogen is to be made from fresh water, then maybe yes, but I think the reason why we don't use hydrogen fuels yet is that they are too dangerous. I mean, if you fuel your car with such fuel but unfortunately manage to get yourself into traffic accident and damage the fuel tank, you'll blow up everything around you, that's why the refuel process is so isolated from air and everything else.
It's all about safety.

@Biomechanoid (2922)
• Estonia
7 Sep 09
Dude, read that, there are many possible causes, the one is that paint thing you were talking about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindenburg_disaster
But still, it isn't only temperature that can ignite the hydrogen, there is a possibility of static electric to ignite hydrogen when concentrated in a tank.
@Boyetski (986)
• Philippines
7 Sep 09
I dis agree.. If we dont damage our tanks full with gas or tanks full of LPG. Then how can we damage our hydrogen tanks in traffic? Each and everyone of the fuels we use are capable of igniting, exploding, and many other nasty things. Hydrogen is actually has a higher auto ignition temperature than gasoline or diesel... diesel fuel has to only be at 250 degrees c to ignite on its own while hydrogen needs 500 degrees c. so if we both throw a sealed gasoline tank and a sealed hydrogen tank in an oven with around 400 degrees c in temperature. Gasoline will surely ignite it self when it reaches equilibrium @ 400 deg. while the sealed hydrogen tank will still be hydrogen..
I think its not the safety issue.. I think its deeper than that.
The hindenburg disaster which point to hydrogen as the faulty part of that system don't even have the power to ignite itself on normal hot summer temperature unless there was an ignition. It was the paint that makes it burn fast.. not the hydrogen. They actually painted the hindenburg with basically a gunpowder.. They added thermites on with the paint.. That accelerates the burning process of the hindenburg..
@Boyetski (986)
• Philippines
7 Sep 09
Yes it is also tested that hydrogen will not ignite without a fire.. Below 500 deg celcius..
As I have said it cannot and will not ignite on its own on a temperature lower than that..
watch this.. www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpF9NlpkMrQ
the balloon is filled with hydrogen. They are expecting that it will all burst into flames in under 30 sec.. But its not going to. :)

@GADHISUNU (2162)
• India
8 Sep 09
I have always believed why the Hydrogen Energy is eluding us has partly to do with the Oil and Fossil Fuel Lobby blocking the development. But no one would accept this theory. The main issues in Hydrogen as a fuel, for transportation, or for Energy Generation are: safe and economical storage and the cost of obtaining( in terms of energy expended) Hydrogen by, say, splitting Water being more than the energy generated, among many other concerns.Likewise other means of Hydrogen production.
We are told that there are vast amounts of methane stored at certain depths in the ocean(I don't remember the depth exactly but under such pressures Methane released by putrifying vegetable matter like seaweeds and other plant life at that depth facing a pressure at which, methane instead of bubbling up as gas is forced into solidifying as 'ice'. Could we call it say, methice?
If only one could "mine" this methice and use it to fuel gas turbines, you would have an "inexhaustible"(?) source of energy for several generations!?! There could be repercussions unknown to us. What if this methane supported the land mass to float above seawater? With the elimination of this support system may be like Atlantis whole continents could simply sink without trace!?!
@Boyetski (986)
• Philippines
9 Sep 09
Well I can agree that we can use methane extracted from there.. But as you say there maybe consequences. You elaborated here that some one is trying to block the development of Hydrogen technology, otherwise we can use it already..
Maybe as our friend which post you can read above will think twice on saying something sarcastic without any supporting facts. RIGHT?! Maybe the aliens are blocking it.. (im kidding)
You also stated that while extracting tons and tons of methane under sea bed might actually be the support of the land mass. You might be correct. And there is pressure down there im pretty sure of it..
How come no one accepts the theory that some one is blocking the development. Instead they blame it on the energy source itself "it's dangerous" "it's expensive" this is absurd.
@GADHISUNU (2162)
• India
11 Sep 09
Sure what I have stated about the Oil and Fossil fuel lobby blocking it might invite sarcastic comments, might look far-fetched, outrageous and what not.I was inspired by your "suggestion" /"conjecture" that it could become explosively dangerous, to inspire WW3. While use of Hydrogen might result in explosions and loss of life due to someone's careless compromise of safety norms or may be trigger a WW3.
I will not allow myself to be constrained by someone's sarcasm, when it is to my imagination that I am giving a free rein.
@Boyetski (986)
• Philippines
11 Sep 09
Yeah me my self will not give in to any sarcasm thrown at me.. But do you agree that I can potentially create war? It might right? Cause if not, then who will be the one blocking the development..
If man developed a way to burn fossil fuels safely. I'm pretty sure safety is maybe the least of the hydrogen developments worries. Instead all the people that might lose their jobs once we are obligated to change our fuel. Thats the first and for most problem at hand.
Secondly the corporations that will be on the way of the development.
Third, countries that rein because of fossil fuels will surely object about the transition.

@ra1787 (501)
• Italy
7 Sep 09
Hydrogen is not an energy source it is just a way to stack and transport energy, we can't find hydrogen in nature we havo to produce it, and producing it costs more energy than what we are able to retrieve from it once produced (No process has 100% efficiency), hydrogen has a sense when we will have a completely renewable electricity production infrastructure, otherwise it will increase fossil fuels consumption instead of reducing it.
The problem is that building such an infrastructure involves solving many problems and will take a lot of time, some steps have been taken but there is still a long road ahead.
Electrolisys produced hydrogen can be the substitute of gasoline in an all-renewable world, but in the current fossil-fuel dominated electricity production system it is very likely to be a waste of energy.
And by the way as of today the only economical way to produce h2 uses methane as input.
I don't understand the ww3 reference, can you explain your theory better?
@Boyetski (986)
• Philippines
7 Sep 09
Well the world War 3 reference is based on wether powerful nations which makes fossil fuels a business has to object on the sense that the are going down soon enough that can create conflict between nations with different acceptance of things when it comes to energy.
The cost of refining hydrogen from water really needs to use some energy too.. But how do we extract and use fossil fuels? Are we not using energy to refine adn extract it? The worlsd is also investing millions/ rather billions on fuel refineries, drillers, wildcaters, what do they use to get the fuels and sell it? Can we actually say that it is cheaper to produce fossil fuels than to produce hydrogen?
If we refine hydrogen.. can we not use it to refine some more?
Theres this scientist russian scientist that produces hydrogen by using photosynthetic bacteria.. The ingridient is solar power, PSB, and water. Will it be more expensive than drilling for fossil fuels?
watch www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEqsR5j_W88 it claims that hydrogen is in liquid form.
@ra1787 (501)
• Italy
14 Sep 09
It is surely possible to produce h2 form renewable sources and that is the objective to pursuit for the future, all i am saying is that we have first to improve our renewable energy generation capacity and then start thinking about using that power to make hydrogen.
There is no point in using hydrogen instead of fossil fuels if that hydrogen comes from fossil fuels, and since as of today most of the energy comes from ff it is surely better to use renewable energy to decrease fossil fuel consumption for electricity instead of converting it to h2 with a 65% electrolysis efficiency 80% storage efficiency 65% fuel cell efficiency and 85% electric engine efficiency (total efficiency 28%, that is less than an average diesel engine).
We should obviously invest in the h2 technology so that when we will have the necessary energy infrastructure we can switch to clean transportation too.
The efficiency is not a problem if the source is renewable, but it can be interesting studying it anyway if the renewable source can be used to substitute a conventional source of electricity instead of converted to h2.
As for the ww3 reference, i don't think it will be fought because there is noone to buy oil, but for the opposite reason, there will not be enough oil for everyone and we will fight over who can use it.
Interesting discussion anyway




