Can Americans outwork Mexicans?

I'll try to work within your parameters but the situation you present is an impossibility because those who are here legally can't simply fill out forms and stay...they are deported. Additionally, no employer would invest the kind of money necessary in order to do this. But, let's say that it was possible and the employer did since that's the situation you set up. Once the employee became legally eligible to work, imo, he would no longer be satisfied with being paid less than half of what the standard is. He would be in a position to demand a fair wage and to look for work elsewhere if the employer refused. The main reason that employers can get away with this is right now is because undocumented workers, and those who don't speak English, are at a disadvantage. As to the second part of your question, I don't believe that the government makes it unnecessarily difficult or expensive for businesses to employ people legitimately. If the government were to say, for instance, that an employer didn't have to pay for Workman's Comp, what happens if an employee is injured on the job? Would the employer be responsible for his medical care and his loss of income? I have a nephew who injured his leg on the job a few years ago. After several surgeries, he lost the leg a few months ago. If his employer had been forced to pay for those medical bills in addition to paying him a monthly income, I'm sure it would have hurt the business and this is just one employee. What if 3 or more employees are hurt? If the financial burden fell on the employee, how is that fair to him and his family? State and federal labor laws and regulations are there for the protection of both the business owner and the employee. Changing them is not the answer. Illegal immigrants are able to survive in this country because they're able to find work but they are also left hung out to dry if they're injured on the job because, technically, they don't exist.

So what is the solution? Or is this simply a supply and demand / market value situation that has ended up being a major bummer for american workers?

I guess the question comes to what do you mean by "fairly" His workers work hard and are willing to work for the wages they get, It must be enough to live on because they are doing it. Why would an american worker who is out of work suck it up and do the work at a lower wage until he found a better job working for an employer who paid more?

"It must be enough to live on because they are doing it" Unfortunately, this is rarely the case. An old college friend once admitted his father hired illegals for his construction company. At the end of the week they'd get a crisp $100 bill each, which is less than even what I make working part time as a cashier. However, the man got away with it because his employees have no one to complain to without risking getting deported, and 2.)finding work as an illegal isn't exactly as easy as strolling into an office and filling out an application. You get what you can take. Quite often the adults in a family are all working a full time job or two, and sometimes they supplement themselves with food stamps and WIC if they figure out how to get around the laws. Let me tell you this, for the average pay an illegal would take for physical labor in Texas, the work isn't isn't worth it. In summer time, only those who are truly desperate would be willing to work in 105 degree temperatures for 50% or less the usual pay. This isn't so much because they are willing to work hard for what they earn, but rather, they have few options available to them.

Something that hasn't been addressed...and I agree with debator 100% about how general contractors who use day laborers in particular do business...is that there are labor laws in this country that protect legitimage workers. I'm not very familiar with what those laws are but it's a pretty safe bet that an employer can't legally cut a worker's wage by half. So, sucking it up and taking a lower wage isn't even an option for many American workers. Also, keep in mind that keeping employees off the books means that the company does not have to pay employee related taxes on these invisible workers nor offer benefits of any kind. As far as the assumption that these low wages "must be" enough to live on...are you familiar at all with the neighborhoods that poor immigrants live in and the large number of related individuals who live together in overcrowded conditions?

You're not really examining what you claim to be looking at troublegum. Mexican nationals don't work harder because they are inherently more hard working...they work harder because they earn little and are easily replaceable. You say that they not only survive on what they earn but also send large chucks of money home to their families. My first question would be, how do you know how much these people are sending home? Do you have any way of knowing or are you just assuming that it's a large amount? My next questions would be whether or not you are aware of the living conditions that these people live in while they "survive" in the U.S.. I have personal knowledge of how they live in several states. In my home town in Maryland neighborhood after neighborhood in the older sections of town, which are primarily made up of small 4 unit apartment buildings and duplex homes, have become home to immigrants. These buildings are privately owned and the landlords don't care that 8, 10 or 12 people are living in a 2 bedroom, 1 bath unit. This is not the exception, this is the norm. The same situation exists in south central Florida where I now live, in the neighboring county where many immigrants have found work in agriculture. These people live in seriously overcrowded conditions because they cannot afford to live independently. There was a fire in New York City that made the news a while ago that brought to light the problem of immigrant overcrowding in that city. The article I will leave you a link to at the end of my comments addresses another fire and includes the problem of overcrowding in Hackensack, N.J. You're making assumptions when it comes to your conclusion...that immigrants work harder than Americans because they're naturally more hard working and that they're living the good life here. Those assumptions are not accurate. : http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/09/nyregion/overcrowding-was-reported-before-fire-tenants-say.html?pagewanted=1

Incidentally, I can't stand answers like this. I view it as one of the weaknesses of US culture that we keep confusing our founding pricipal of "all men are created equal" with "everyone is the same" Different cultures and populations, if you are talking about Cities, Countries, families, corperations or whatever, have different outlooks, views, and yes sometimes even different genetics that that tend to make them excel or lag in different areas. If you examine these differences you can often spot your own weaknesses and work to improve them. This is the same way IBM looks at Mac to see where it is losing market share and works to improve in those areas. If they just said "we are all the same" they would quickly be left behind. The US is in a particular spot right now where we better take a hard look at our culture and our politics to see in what areas we are doing better than other nations and in what areas we are worse. To that end, great we were all created equally no matter where we were born, but there is a difference somewhere, that a large population of Mexican Nationals are willing to risk their lives to come north of the boarder, work harder, for less money that US nationals, and not only survive on it, but save a large chuck of it and send it home to their families. So there is an obvious difference in the two populations, and that is what we are examining here.

Since you brought my example into your response please allow me to elaborate a little bit on the painter who you believe to be overpriced. This painter, who if you'll recall worked with my son who is a drywall finisher, didn't go into people's homes to simply paint a room. These guys worked for a contractor who did either new home construction or remodeling. Now, if you want to build your own house, you can also save quite a bit of money but that's quite a large undertaking, isn't it? Adding an addition to your home, repairing fire damage as well as other jobs take professionals and THAT is what you pay for...the talents and skill of professionals. When a contractor or sub-contractor hires day laborers for next to nothing the consumer does not get professional work. Now, just imagine if that contractor also hires day labors to do the electrical work....

I see you are passionate on the subject, but before you start throwing daggers around, you may want to go back and read the initial post. I never said I hired the guy, just that he stopped by my yard to offer his services. On the other hand, I am actually more of the problem than you may realize, precicely because I didn't hire him. I am of the beleif that most manual labor is overprices. For example, if he were coming by with three guys for an hour every few weeks to cut grass lay mulch or whatever, and charging me $30 laboor + cost of whatever he put in. I veiw it as better to either not have it done or to take two hours out of my own day and do it mayself. Thus hiring no one. Someone earlier mentioned a painter getting $20/hour. If I have a room in my house that I want painted I could save myself $60 on a three hour job, which would be accomplished by simply not watching TV for a couple of dasy. Wow, I just saved $60 for the cost of missing 6 episodes of The Simpsons. Some tree guy recently gave me a quote to take down a tree in my back yard. He wanted $925 to remove it (don't know if he used mexicans or not) I ended up taking it down with a hand saw and we had a "campfire" in the back yard every night for a week. My 3 year old got to roast marshmallows and we had a good time with it. Saved me $925 and we made it a family affair. I don't know plants, so I am not great at landscaping, but my mother is great with plants, so she can advise when I do my own work. I can paint her house because she is not up to it. My point here is that the other issue is that with people having less cash to spend they are doing more of their own work, and doing work either on the barter system or within families. When my son is old enough, he will mow the yard, I am not paying anyone, no matter where they come from $50 a week to cut grass. Forget any ethical issues one might have with who is working for the person they hire. If the price is so high that it makes it better to do the work yourself you will not hire someone to do it.

"But, eventually you that assistance does end." The problem is, what happens if that assistance does NOT end. They keep extending unemployment benefits and every time a senator objects and says the extension should be paid for, he gets demonized. Note that in our congress only TWO senators have actually had the guts to object to the extensions. At that rate this unemployment crap could last for years. I chose to take a job that I'm well overqualified for just so I wouldn't be unemployed, but many Americans are more than happy to take those unemployment checks for as long as the government will keep handing them out.

I'm sure there are those who are happily sitting on their butts collecting unemployment benefits but I find it hard to believe that that's the majority when I hear/see/read news reports about the numbers of folks applying for every available job. Statistically in Florida, the number is 20.

Taskr, the problem is that by not extending those benefits you will have millions of people with no income to make their mortgage payment, and car payments. Thus, creating another huge increase in foreclosures, which no one wants. The reason that I opposed Mr. Bunting's last objection is the fact that he was in office during the Bush years when they didn't pay for ANYTHING!!!! This man stood up and asked how we are going to pay for this when he didn't do the same thing when HE was getting us into this mess. If he would have done his job for the last 9 years, maybe we wouldn't be where we are at today.

No offense intended to jrocas so please don't take this wrong...but how would you expect someone who lives in the philippines to have the answers to your question?

do you restrict this to manual labor or does it apply across the board? Would you attibute it to a cultural, genetic or other difference?

We've had them at the apartment complex. They come immediately after it rains and tear up the grass plus farm the yard because it's way too wet. I've also worked with them at a hotel. You either had to send them back to clean the rooms again or have someone else clean the rooms.

My youngest daughter's boyfriend has a mowing service down here in Florida. He also works full time but, since he's home by 4:00, they're able to keep up with the mowing schedule in the early evenings and on the weekends. Last year there was a Cuban putting flyers in people's mailboxes offering his services for about half of what the other local compaines were charging. Two of Reed's customers switched...and a month later switched back for the very reason your cited. The guy's work was terrible and, in the case of one customer, he mowed down ground level plants.