The Myth of the American Dream

@grandpa_lash (5225)

• Australia

27 Oct 12

Since I was, as I stated clearly, responding to a recent example of this claim, and since this claim is one that seems to get thrown up by some of the more hard-wired Republicans here every time they perceive someone as bashing America, your response is pointless. Lash

@bestboy19 (5478)

• United States

27 Oct 12

Lash, that was a juvenile evasion.

2 people like this

matersfish

@matersfish (6306)

• United States

26 Oct 12

"Your touching faith in the myth of the American Dream would be hilarious if it weren't so sad." Your America-bashing is just sad. Point blank. Obvious troll. WTF is wrong with a slogan like that? Who's it hurting? Besides you, of course. I have no earthly idea what folks say about Australia. That's Australia's business. Besides, you destroy your own argument. Nobody says everybody can get rich (define "rich" anyway, ffs); "anybody" is vastly different. Potential. What's your beef? I mean, altogether; what's your hangup here with America? Out of every holier-than-thou harangue in your repertoire, this is the most petty. Becoming a multimillionaire is the only definition of rich? "Rich" is the only outcome people have in mind when they think of the American dream? Not escaping third-world style poverty? Not getting away from vicious dictators? Not fleeing religious oppression? Not starting up a family-owned business? Not becoming financially independent? Not living in peace and freedom? Get the hell over yourself already. Your clock's winding down. Is this really the low note you wanna go out on? I'm truly sorry that America has wronged you in some way. Maybe you feel America gets too much attention and that Australia should get more, or maybe you're seriously butthurt over the fact that myLot's politics section is dominated by American politics. I don't know. But this is seriously scraping the bottom of the barrel. The fact that few people end up as multimillionaires -- that's your sticking point for bashing people who believe in the American dream? Childish for an old man. Seriously. Have some pennies, gramps.

1 person likes this

@grandpa_lash (5225)

• Australia

27 Oct 12

I'm offended. (lol) I happily admit to bashing America when I think it's justified, but I bash Australia just as often, and the entire Western economic system just as often, and fundamentalist Islam just as often, and dogmatic God-botherers just as often. What offends me here is that this was not an example of bashing America, it was bashing those people who fall back on meaningless mantras and bromides. Of any race. It's a weak debating style, so popular in politics the world over, to raise irrelevancies in preference to addressing the issue at hand. As for national comparisons, since I wasn't bashing America I didn't see the point in comparisons. When it boils down, this particular version of the dream is impossible anywhere, and my own country has 1/8 below the poverty line, just barely better than the US and that's probably as much because we have a much smaller population as any other factor. Our version of the National Dream is much more modest, it's simply to be able to buy your own home and retire comfortably. Now you will claim, with justification, that most Americans would concur with that, but it's not most Americans I am talking about here, it is that few I mentioned above who keep spouting this rubbish at me. It was not I who raised the multi-millionaire tag, that credit is due to the person who prompted my post in the first place. That said, our version of the dream looks to be on the verge of joining the multi-million dollar dream as unrealisable with the changes business and politicians are putting in place in the labour relations area. Lash

matersfish

@matersfish (6306)

• United States

27 Oct 12

I personally see no issue at hand to lend relevancy to. I see nothing more than an insult levied at every individual who has lived and who continues to believe in the dream of a nation. There is no such thing as the American dream, and if you believe there is, you're a moron. Does that about cover it? Discussing something on its merits is one thing. To speak about what the American dream is or to ponder whether it has morphed into strict greed for millions of dollars at the detriment of everyone else -- that's worthy. The way it's framed, however, is, to me, pathetic. There are plenty I-long-for-social-living-under-big-government Americans, some of whom have already added their two cents here. And while I disagree with their take which insists, as you, it's all about money and nothing else, I also don't feel they insulted a nation in the delivery. I still want to know who says the dream is to become incredibly wealthy. Even some of the people I've read who seem to agree with you don't claim to hold that particular dream themselves, but they're simultaneously insisting that's what the dream has become. It's quite odd. It's not the dream I hold. It's not the dream I see anyone who has responded here holding. Yet that's the line being pushed. So it just reads like strawman greed-bashing and not an attempt to have a genuine discussion on the subject. In my neighborhood alone, I know dozens of people here from Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Guatemala, Colombia, and other locations that they fled from to achieve a better life. Perhaps not all can say that their full dreams have been realized, but I guarantee it's not a useless mantra to them. It was a promise of a better life; a promise kept. If folks want guaranteed outcomes, maybe they should invent that awesome machine Tom Cruise used in his Vanilla Sky remake.

1 person likes this

francesca5

@francesca5 (1344)

•

26 Oct 12

as a uk resident i am fully aware that us republicans are quite happy to sell to uk right wing politicians policies on welfare, so its not true to say that what goes on in america doesn't affect the rest of us, because it does. you may oject to grandpa lash's terminology, but i once visited with the US embassy with my ex husband and had dinner there, and i was talking to someone who worked there about how to be a politician in the US it was advantageous to be wealthy, which therefore excluded a lot of people, and she said to be that in the US there was a belief that anyone could be rich. but just a quick search on the internet googling US social mobility i found this http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 this article in the new york times says that it is easier to become rich from nothing if you are canadian, than if you are american. so those multi millionaire canadians may be distorting the figures even more than grandpa lash realises!

urbandekay

@urbandekay (18278)

•

26 Oct 12

My, my the Americans here are so so touchy

Me thinks the lady doth protest too much! all the best, urban

1 person likes this

6precious102

@6precious102 (4043)

• United States

26 Oct 12

Silly me for thinking the American Dream was: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

1 person likes this

dreams

6precious102

@6precious102 (4043)

• United States

27 Oct 12

Ask the millions of immigrants who choose to come to the United States rather than choosing any other country and they'll tell you they chose to come here because of opportunities that they would never have in their native country. They know the opportunities are here because of our (ir)relevant view of equality.

@grandpa_lash (5225)

• Australia

27 Oct 12

Irrelevancies to avoid the issue, which is "programmatic" thinking and the use of mantras, cliches, bromides, and platitudes in place of critical analysis. Lash

@grandpa_lash (5225)

• Australia

28 Oct 12

Why can't you people understand when I say, in plain English, that this discussion is about people who claim that the American Dream is that anyone can become wealthy if they only work hard, a claim that is blatantly ludicrous. I am not attacking any realistic Dream, because to do so would be to attack every nation in the world and my own dream, and nor I am not attacking America. I don't know how many more ways I can find to point this out. As urbandekay said, you Americans are so touchy. Lash

JenInTN

@JenInTN (27514)

• United States

28 Oct 12

The truth is, as with anywhere else, it takes money to make money. Thinking of your analysis as including the super elite..nope...not much of a chance to get there. It is one in a million that will achieve that, if that. They want us to support them and if they allow everyone to get there..well..they won't have any commodities left. Commodities being the people...they are not considered people to them. Now...if we are talking about opportunities to rise above poverty into a somewhat shifty middle class...yes..hard work and perseverance might prevail. There are educational opportunities for those that want and work for it, but at this point, even those are at risk. The welfare system is set up to keep people in its grasp so many never escape it. The standard of living has been greatly threatened here too because of the state of economy. Minorities have great chance to reach a certain level of financial comfort. There are business grants, educational grants, and certain benefits set up for only them. The problem for everyone here though is what they are going to do once they get that educations and such.

1 person likes this

knoodleknight18

@knoodleknight18 (917)

• United States

26 Oct 12

I feel like you brought up some sort of old news here that just made people mad. The last 2 times I've heard the American dream mentioned were both in negative manners by Americans. 1. George Carlin, saying it's a dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it. 2. In "The Watchmen" "What happened to the American dream?" Responded, "It came true. You're looking at it." I find the 2nd example particularly ironic. I think the American dream really did come true and this is the result. Even if you argue that the dream is freedom, or a better life. Is the dream really to pick fruit for half of minimum wage and have 10 people living in a 2 bedroom apartment. Or to come here as a Muslim and be persecuted? Perhaps, it's to give up our constitutional rights against search, seizure, and imprisonment without a trial, because we need to fight the war on terror. Yeah the terrorists hate our freedoms and want to take them away. Well now their gone and we did it to ourselves because of them. Good job. We beat ourselves. The rest of the dream didn't do much better. My dream is to get a descent job so I can afford to live and pay off my college loans. Well it's not really my dream, but it would be a lot closer. This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of opportunists. Even if the dream wasn't to be terribly rich, I'm sure the poverty that 20% or more of Americans are struggling with right now isn't what 1 in 5 people consider the dream. And just another number for millionaires who started with nothing, about 1500 Americans win $1,000,000 or more in the lottery each year.

1 person likes this

@grandpa_lash (5225)

• Australia

27 Oct 12

I find it promising that the critiques here, although all misdirected, at least seem to accept the logic of my analysis. Now they're just repudiating the dream as though they or their fellows never had it and never said it. Perhaps individually the ones represented here didn't, but that doesn't negate the fact that this myth has been stated as the American Dream for as long as I can remember. And you're quite correct, even the more modest dreams are now under threat, in my country almost as much as in yours. The Western developed nations are valiantly attempting to drag themselves down to Third World standards with the current form of economic "wisdom" which lowers wages in the name of "competition" with Third World wages. Lash

laglen

@laglen (19759)

• United States

27 Oct 12

Lash, The "American Dream" is a matter of perception. How do you define happiness? this is a personal thing. Everybody is different. This "Dream" is different for everybody. The point is that we have it and have a right to pursue it (not to the extent that you step on somebody else's rights). Reading through your post then the responses, I would say that you were baiting and they were biting. But as an American, I take this very seriously. I am forty years old and am pursuing MY dream. This includes, my own business, security, and to be left the heck alone by the government. I will keep my option to protect myself and I would like to keep most of the money I earn. I am willing to pay my share for the greater good of the country as soon as the yahoos in Washington are replaced by people who understand the sacrifices I have to make to do so. My American Dream is easily obtainable and sustainable. People that dream of being a millionaire, need to keep in mind that in order to achieve this, they will have to work a millionaires hours, and sacrifice a millionaires sacrifices. With great rights, comes great responsibility.

laglen

@laglen (19759)

• United States

29 Oct 12

ok Lash, I apologize for not getting the gist of the discussion. I did not read all of the responses because the arguments were getting silly. In regards to mantras and cliches, I agree. When what they are righting is word for word in what you hear from the main stream media, it gets annoying. This happens on both sides. So, yes I agree.

@grandpa_lash (5225)

• Australia

28 Oct 12

laglen, I have tried to point this out to several others in this thread with monumental lack of success. If I had to do that with someone in real life, time and again, and got no comprehension of it, I would be thinking in terms of intellectual challenge. The OP has two levels: first, it is a discussion of people, any people, who "debate" through the use of mantras and cliches which simply don't stand the test of logical analysis. Second, I used the "American Dream" as an example because, as I have stated about ten times in other responses, it was thrown up at me the day before I started the discussion, a statement which echoes numerous similar statements I have been offered in MyLot over the past few years, and because it was an issue I could actually find figures for to illustrate my point. Of course everybody has a different angle on the American Dream, or the Australian Dream, or any other dream, but most people don't fall back on this "Land of opportunity, anyone who is prepared to work can become wealthy in America, and that those who don't are deadbeats who would rather let the government, i.e. the poster's tax dollars, pay for them" as the basis for of their argument. The title of the discussion was, in retrospect, poorly chosen. Lash

1 person likes this

p1kef1sh

@p1kef1sh (45681)

•

27 Oct 12

When I was a boy America (and Australia) was presented as a kind of Eldorado where anything was possible. A land where you could "make it" and the consume all the manufactured goods that you could buy! Actually, it was more than that. A land of outstanding natural beauty and bounty and a place that paid homage to the good old family values that were slowly slipping away from the mother country. We Brits may have "lost" the War of Independence but we still like to retain the moral superiority that we enabled that nation's birth. However, this was a country so insecure that it required a huge military to protect itself from foreign threat. Of course that never materialised so instead it was used to prop up foreign policy in those parts of the World where natural resources were rich but the rulers were not ideal ideologically aligned to Washington. America was bigger and therefore better than the rest and there was no harm in reminding the rest of us that was the case. Actually, for most small boys brought up on a diet of cowboys and Indians, Roy Rogers and Lassie arame rica was a land where anything was possible and it had little to do with money. In the same way that children discover one day that the people that they view as "heroes" make ill judged decisions too, so it is with those of us that live outside of North America. However, we rarely claim that our our country is the best (although of course we know that to be the case - except when it's not). The USA, as the latest major arriviste still clings to that notion and urges its citizens to proclaim the fact as often as they can. Are they wrong to do so? I once heard the French described as 'relentlessly selfish' because they put France first. So perhaps that is the American Dream to. Relentlessly xenophobic despite the fact that they are populated almost entirely by migrants, many of whom have not and never will make it big economically. Does that make the dream flawed? Depends on what it is that you are seeking.

p1kef1sh

@p1kef1sh (45681)

•

27 Oct 12

Sorry about the typos. On screen keyboard and early morning conspire to make this poor workman blame his tools.

@bestboy19 (5478)

• United States

26 Oct 12

The myth is yours. The American Dream is not to get rich. Our Declaration of Independence says it all, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." People came to America for these God given rights.

@bestboy19 (5478)

• United States

27 Oct 12

No, rereading what you wrote, you are the one who is calling wealth building the American Dream. The other person, from what you wrote, is just saying it's possible in America to fulfill your personal dream of becoming wealthy, not that it's the American Dream.

@grandpa_lash (5225)

• Australia

27 Oct 12

The myth is that of the person who threw it at me two days ago, and the many others who have done so over my five years with MyLot. Lash

@grandpa_lash (5225)

• Australia

28 Oct 12

No, that is you reinterpreting what I have written about ten times in this thread. Lash

Go Crossbones

@crossbones27 (48398)

• Mojave, California

26 Oct 12

Your going to set off a firestorm with this one Lash. I think it is a conversation we should be having though, because I am not sure what the hell the American Dream is any more? It does seem to be more about making a boatload of money and not bettering each other lives. If it is about the pursuit of happiness, how come we don't teach that? We teach how in order to be successful, you have to be ruthless and you have to screw each other over.

@bestboy19 (5478)

• United States

26 Oct 12

The American Dream is not what someone can do for you but the opportunities you have to do for yourself.

Go Crossbones

@crossbones27 (48398)

• Mojave, California

27 Oct 12

I think that is the biggest problem with this country. You can't question anything with out being painted as the devil, whether it be modern capitalism, religion, the constitution, or the American dream. That's probably why the country finds it self in this mess. We just tend to except things because people have been telling us that is the way it has always been for so long. Plus people can't take constructive criticism anymore.

1 person likes this

AidaLily

@AidaLily (1450)

• United States

26 Oct 12

Well the American Dream did mean you were successful with a nice house the likes of which would probably cost about $250,000, a family (if you chose), proper children, a decent affordable education and possibly the opportunity to create your own very successful business. What the American Dream is now probably summarizes to how many people can a person screw over to make their life better. People claim this isn't the American dream, but face it. You know it (as you mentioned in your post about how we teach people to be successful) and I know it and most of these other people know it, but they don't want to admit it. That makes them seem terrible if they do. It was never about the pursuit of happiness.... if it was... the people in this country wouldn't have to continuously fight for freedoms they should have like the freedom to marry whom they want, the freedom to choose what to do to their own bodies, the freedom to not be threatened or intimidated by employers on their basic right here to vote, and the list goes on. It pretty much is "Hey look what I did and look how much more I have than you." But I've already said plenty of times it is a sad state of affairs.