Rational Thinking Anyone?

Then what? I can't say for sure. It could become a scene out of one of those "day after" movies where everyone is fighting for their food and lives or it could be more peaceful. Or - and my greatest fear - we could be invaded by another nation when we are at our weakest. Just because it hasn't happened before doesn't mean it won't happen in the future. The military has been cut, the National Guard is now busy policing our citizens, the United Nations is already a presence here, our borders are open to anyone. We are already a sitting duck. But I pray that it won't come to that. Surely someone who is in position to carry some weight will have the courage to stand up and do what's right. Surely...

That someone is US, WE the people. Fist mistake is to trust someone else to do what needs to be done.

It will hit a place where it all comes crashing down. Then what? I fear my mother's stories of the Great Depression won't even compare.

What we need is a national sales tax--don't tax INCOME, tax SPENDING. Tax EVERYTHING--medical care, food, utilities, gas, clothing, houses, etc. etc. A 3 tier system, for instance with the lowest rates on medical, utilities and food, the highest on large ticket items and durable items. The government can always find ways to regulate taxes on income--so the tax system is always unbalanced towards one group or another. On the other hand--EVERYONE buys things. EVERYONE consumes. Let people make as much as they can, and keep it all--the government gets its share when they spend instead. No more IRS. No more tax code. No more loopholes, regulations. We'd save some money just getting rid of all that. It would also encourage people to save, to some extent--encourage a little self discipline, perhaps. Not the only solution, but one we should consider.

Lowering taxes and cutting spending HAVE worked in the past. But the left feels that by repeating the lie that it has not often enough will make it so. And everytime conservatives have caved in and allowed taxes to be raised with the promise of spending cuts to follow, the left has gone back on their word and either no cuts or very miniscule cuts were made. And every temporary tax hike the left makes, then goes into NEW spending, not deficit or debt reduction.

True and neither is cutting and running all the best, urban

prolonging the agony is not always the right thing to do.

Fact is, conservatives are not against all safety nets for the poor. They are against an unlimited government that enjoys unlimited spending against the wishes of the electorate's best interests. They are also against being forced by said government to pay for things they are morally opposed to. That IS the reason for our laws on charitable (faith based) institutions being TAX exempt.

I hope you don't mind me asking if any if your above comment was in your own words as opposed to a simple copy and paste of the articles to which you linked. The thing is, I enjoy having DISCUSSIONS with you, I really do, even though we often disagree; I'm NOT particularly interested in having what would amount to a one-sided conversation to the authors of the various articles or columns. The FACTS regarding the debt ceiling are really quite simple: if we default on our debt it will have a horrific effect on the world economy, not just here in the U.S. If it even LOOKS like we MIGHT default, as happened the last time we were held hostage by the tea party Republicans, the stock market will fall, which will mean lost money for many Americans, and our credit rating will be downgraded again which means we'll pay a significantly higher interest rate for the debt we already owe. I'd say for people who are so against the government "wasting money" this is a totally unnecessary waste. The bottom line is if we default or threaten to default on or debt the same thing will happen to us as a nation as what happens to a private citizen who decides they've reached their own personal "debt ceiling" and they'll no longer pay back money they've already spend; interest rates will soar because our credit rating will suck. I really had to laugh the other day when I heard one of my state's U.S. Senators speak about the possibility of just letting the government shut down for awhile if we don't pay our debt as if it's no big deal at all. He basically said "so what if some parks don't get mowed"...what a WASTE and someone I'm sure glad I didn't vote for. Annie

There is a difference between promises to spend (discretionary) and debt. We have enough to pay our debt, and then prioritize and/or reform our promises to spend. And promising MORE SPENDING is absolutely a ridiculous thing to do when you already have borrowed so much you can barely make the interest payments. http://useconomy.about.com/od/glossary/g/discretionary.htm Discretionary fiscal policy can either be used to expand the economy or contract it. Expansionary fiscal policy is when the Federal government increases spending or decreases taxes. This usually spurs economic growth, creating more profitable businesses and more jobs. If both are done simultaneously, it drives the economy even faster. Contractionary fiscal policy is the opposite, and has the opposite effect. It's when the Federal government cuts spending or increases taxes, and it slows economic growth. That's because there is less money in taxpayers' pockets, and fewer contracts going to government contractors and employees. Unfortunately, the political process ensures that discretionary fiscal policy will nearly always be expansionary. Why? Because lawmakers get elected by spending money. That's how they reward voters, special interest groups and those who donate to campaigns. In other words, everyone wants to see the budget cut, just not their portion of the budget http://useconomy.about.com/od/worldeconomy/p/Sovereign-Debt.htm All goes well until creditors start to doubt whether they will be repaid. These doubts start to creep in when sovereign debt reaches 77% of the country's annual economic output, or Gross Domestic Product (GDP). For emerging market countries, the tipping point comes sooner -- at 64% debt-to-GDP ratio. http://financialservices.about.com/od/StrategiesandResearch/a/Whats-The-Debt-Ceiling.htm Just two developed nations shoulder a shudder-making mountain of debt: Japan and the United States account for $26 trillion of national debt! Adding Italy to the mix represents half of the world's Gross Domestic Product (GDP). Unlike other borrowing nations, the United State's present debt load represents about 11% of our GDP. Financial analysts discuss concerns about our nation's ability to repay debt based upon a declining level of products creation. Other economic indicators show us that flooding the market with debt hasn't improved our economy. Housing continues to fall. The "U6" unemployment rate (a combined number of unemployed people who've given up their search for a job, part-time and under-employed workers) rests at about 16.2% in June. Three MYTHS concerning the debt ceiling. http://www.marklevinshow.com/goout.asp?u=http://www.businessinsider.com/three-myths-of-the-debt-ceiling-debate-2011-4 Raising TAXES on the top 2% of US citizens will only pay for, at the MOST, 9 days of opperating the Federal Government. This, to any sane person, would mean we have a spending problem, not a revenue problem. To raise the debt ceiling now would not cure our spending problem. It would, if history is to be an indicator, only encourage more spending. Cuts to our budget must be made, reforms to our entitlement programs must be made if we are to ever get our spending problem in check.

As I've said in the past I am no economist. I find it easier to link to articles by economists who can explain it so much clearer than I. I really doubt you 'enjoy' our discussions. But I guess I have to take your word for it. We are NOT in danger of defaulting as we can pay the interest on the debt. History shows that when the debt ceiling is raised rather than pay down the debt, liberals find ways to spend more.

Debra, You are so right, our economy is headed so far south it will make the great depression look like a Sunday afternoon picnic. People who do not prepare for that eventuality are going to be hardest hit. It is my sincere belief that it is not if our economy crashes but when and it is no too far off.

And who will fill the vacuum. I do not fear deprevation as much as I fear those who will enter the picture and promise to fix it.

In our civilization we have made some great advances, money is one of those. Banks are another. But I see owing money as a form of slavery. I've bought a house, my hand shook when signing the papers and I was sick to my stomach afterwards. lol I've never bought a NEW car, but I've had a car payment and that stressed me out too. I do owe student loans, but cannot find a job in my field. I feels like a black cloud is hanging over my head. Up above in an earlier response, I tell of my niece who practices minimalism. She buys ONLY what she needs to survive. She tells me it took a couple of years to pare down her expectations of what was needed and what was merely a desire. She paid off her home early in life (fortunate to be able to do so) and her children are grown. She describes her chosen lifestyle as a new found freedom. She is able to put almost all of her salary in the bank. She says she's never felt more FREE in her entire life. Do I think ALL should live this way? I think we live in a unique time, in that-that choice may be made FOR US if our financial system crashes. People who know HOW to live like my niece will fare much better than those who expect to have their every whim instantly indulged.

...and it seems against all logic..

The numbers are not what we're used to. There is a comercial for some financial planning company, they show stacks of money next to skyscrapers that are taller than the buildings. That brought it home for me. Thanks for your responses.

It seems that a rational person, if doing these things, would seem to be trying to destroy themselves on PURPOSE?

I agree with you. But ignoring something is not escaping it... So it'd be better people start changing themselves.

and do so quickly. As I believe we're about to learn the 'hard way'.

Our society has been conditioned to not believe in or accept 'consequences'. But unfortunately, they do not go away just because we don't accept them.