The Pledge of Allegiance
By chrystalia
@chrystalia (1208)
Tucson, Arizona
December 7, 2012 10:10pm CST
Apparently, they still read the Pledge of Allegiance at public schools in the morning. This is a good thing. Of course, the Supreme Court ruled back in the 1940's--1943 to be exact--that no one can be forced to stand up for it, or say it.
Politics makes for strange bedfellows--in this case, the atheists and the 7th day Adventists. Atheists won't stand up because of the Under God thing Eisenhower put in in his term in office as POTUS of course--but it was the Adventists that started the trend, because the pledge is against their religious principals, on the grounds it involves allying with a temporal nation rather than a heavenly one. Valid point.
However-- merely standing, and not reciting the pledge, is NOT, in my view, a threat to anyone's religious, or non religious views. Standing for the pledge is merely a sign of respect--just as everyone stands for the anthem of a foreign country at an international sports event, or when a foreign dignitary visits an area. Are the atheists and the Adventists so lacking in basic respect that they can't stand up for 20 seconds or so--just to acknowledge that there IS a pledge--not to say it, no hand over the heart--just out of simple respect?
Good grief, they don't have to say it, they don't have to take it. They wouldn't learn it, of course. But showing some basic respect shouldn't be so terrible, should it? I went to school with an Adventist kid, and he was miserable. Every day, he sat--because his parents punished him if he didn't. He and I were literally the ONLY non-Jewish kids in our elementary school. The first year he was there (the third grade, I had been there 2 years) our teacher put up her little Christmas tree and brought in Christmas cookies. She was happy there was finally another Christian kid for me to celebrate with--she took it down when he started crying and told her he'd get punished if he ate the cookies or decorated the tree.
I wonder how many kids in this country want to stand up--but don't because their friends would say something? I wonder how many atheist's or Adventist's kids want to stand up, just because it's RESPECTFUL--and don't, because mom and dad would flip out? I wonder if anyone else realizes this gives the message to ALL kids that the pledge is just babble that you don't have to consider relevant enough to be respectful towards, whether you agree with the concept or not?
I wonder when adults began to confuse simple RESPECT with endorsement, or acquiescence?
3 people like this
6 responses
@mythociate (21437)
• Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
8 Dec 12
There is the quote "The only action necessary for evil to win is for good men to do nothing," related to the quote I put under my picture (on my profile), "Fear Tolerated is Faith Contaminated" ...
But the Pledge is not so-much stating 'your belief in what the stars-&-stripes symbolize' as it states 'that you believe in the people who are standing with you under that flag.'
And 'reciting the same thing as the others recite' is sort of a confirmation of that unity ... kind of a 'they're saying this, so I show that I'm on their team by standing up and saying the same thing.'
It's sort of like when Nichiren Buddhist meet, they stand in front of a Gohonzon (a drawing of the Korean Sanskrit words of the mantra they chant) and 'endlessly' repeat "Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo" together---the 'actual meaning' becomes less-&-less important in light of the facts that the first Buddha said it 'endlessly,' -that His disciples patterned-after Him that way, -that all their disciples also did that, -that the Buddhist leaders we follow follow after those disciples, -that the disciples that follow us will do the same practices we do and -on-&-on
@chrystalia (1208)
• Tucson, Arizona
8 Dec 12
I'm somewhat aware of the Nichirin Buddhists, as a matter of fact. I don't mind if people don't SAY it, or don't put their hand over their heart, or whatever--but it does kind of upset me that they lack the innate respect to at least voluntarily stand up. Whichever version we use, 1,2 or 3 means nothing to me. I always stood up anyway. As I see it, standing is a sign of respect--not endorsement, or agreement. You can stand out of respect without saying the pledge yourself, in my opinion. It irks me when people scream that they want their beliefs respected, and their rights respected--then they disrespect someone else's.
@deebomb (15304)
• United States
9 Dec 12
to start with I would like to correct what you said about Seventh Day Adventist. We do believe and say the Pledge of Allegiance. There is a youth program equivalent to the boy and girl scouts called Pathfinders. When they do special ceremonies the pledge to both flags as well as the bible is said.
http://www.rdio.com/media/images/emails/discover_ner.gif
Standing when the flag is presented or goes by in a parade or being said any where is a sign of respect not only to the flag but to all those who gave their lives for our country and the freedoms we have.
I don't think that enough people really understand what the flag stands for so they don't want to stand or say the pledge. I don't think that much is taught in school except to say it.
Here are reasons to give respect to out flag.
http://www.redskelton.com/PLEDGE.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2lWhJRYzDM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuteyiYN6js
1 person likes this
@Adoniah (7513)
• United States
9 Dec 12
Misinformation...ain't it grand...Thank you for straightening this out Dee. The 7th Day Adventists are very cool people.
@KrauseHome (36448)
• United States
8 Dec 12
It is quite interesting when you really look at it. Because honestly I feel standing to recite the Pledge of allegiance and putting your right hand over your heart is done out of respect for our country, no matter how one believes otherwise. There are so many people out there of different Faiths and religions that believe otherwise and it is sad. I wonder how many kids do not do it wishing they could, and even get ridiculed because of it?
@chrystalia (1208)
• Tucson, Arizona
9 Dec 12
Well said, Deb! Not that they would agree with that, but well said anyway
@chrystalia (1208)
• Tucson, Arizona
8 Dec 12
That's my thought--between peer pressure, so to speak, and the implication that respect equals endorsement (which to me it doesn't), what happens with these kids?
@debrakcarey (19887)
• United States
9 Dec 12
And of course there is the hypocrisy of their stand, they demand respect, expect respect, but do not respect anything but what they deem 'respect' worthy. In my mind, America has given them a choice, and protects their right to make that choice, that alone makes America worthy of their respect.
1 person likes this
@Adoniah (7513)
• United States
9 Dec 12
Where I live, the pledge cannot be said, read, or recited in schools...What a shame. Children today have no structure or routine in their lives. They go from one form of entertainment to the next. Teachers are forced to try to make education entertaining to even get kids to listen. That is why our children are failing in advanced math and science!!!!
No one ever tries to 'make' a kid do anything or tries to get them to do anything structured...Saying the pledge everyday and singing a patriotic song everyday at the opening bell, teaches structure if nothing else. How do you get a kid to do anything in school if you have parents saying..."I don't believe in a god, so my kid will not say or stand for the pledge or song." A kid does not rally listen to the words...the structure and formality of the recitation is what is the most important for the little ones. Have you seen a teacher today trying to get kids to walk in a straight line and be quiet when going from point A to B at school? It doesn't happen because kids are told every day that they do not have to do this or that because "they do not believe int that". Tough!,this is a tough world and you will have to do a lot of things that you do not want to just to survive!!!
I think that it is too late though...we have gone too far into filth and evil to ever get our kids back on track
@chrystalia (1208)
• Tucson, Arizona
10 Dec 12
Yes, the structure is gone--been thrown out along with a lot of other things. Whether we look at communism, secular humanism, or just plain hubris, for whatever reason people now seem to think that we are the top of the universal heap-- that man has finally almost succeeded in killing and replacing the creator, or something. It is rather unsettling to observe, think about as well. But it will be more unsettling to deal with the inevitable consequences of our hubris.
1 person likes this
@Adoniah (7513)
• United States
10 Dec 12
I agree totally with both of you...But, each of us has a moral duty to try to do something about it...Volunteering in schools in places like the library give you the opportunity to have contact with the little ones. Most school libraries have volunteer story tellers or book readers. As long as you do not step over the "religion" line, you can tell the children what the "moral" of the story was at the end...It is a fine line that we walk here...So far I have never crossed it and am still welcome. You have to go through the same screening process that substitute teachers do, but you can pick your own hours etc. Substitute teaching is another way to get in touch with children of all ages...Once again you have to walk that line.
Another place to volunteer is the children's advocacy. this is where you stand up with kids who have to go to court for custody hearings, foster home issues, and anything where kids need an adult who cares...There are free classes to teach you what you need to know and there is a screening process, but then you just volunteer a few hours a month and have a chance to make a difference in children's lives. You can get info on this at your County seat offices.
@themdno (402)
• United States
8 Dec 12
I wouldn't force my kid to sit while it was recited, but I don't think he should be required to stand during it,especially if 'under god' is included.
I think if the script were flipped, and the pledge said 'one nation, under no god whatsoever...' and religious people's children were expected to stand during it, there would be an outcry.
Requiring someone to stand while something is said, out of respect for what is being said, gives credence that what is being said is true. If what is being said completely flies in the face of what I actually believe, why should I be forced to show respect to what is being said?
If those words were removed, this whole debate would be null to me, however. I agree with every word in the pledge, except for two, 'under god'.
1 person likes this
@chrystalia (1208)
• Tucson, Arizona
8 Dec 12
Personally, I agree with you. The Under God is version 3--version 1 and 2 didn't have it in there. But having said that--even if it were worded as you put it--I would STILL stand. I wouldn't SAY it, or put my hand over my heart--but until someone decided to correct the issue, I would accord it the respect that I accord most things that are against my personal viewpoint, but not morally offensive to me. I find NONE of the versions morally offensive, so I would stand for any of the three we have had--I did when I was in school.
I also don't believe you should be REQUIRED to stand-- and kids aren't, haven't been for years. But what I guess I didn't make clear is that it is possible for a lack of respect to be contagious, whether a person intends it to be so or not. And I have found it more than ironic in the past to listen to both atheists and religious people claiming they "respect" the rights and opinions of others, and getting very upset when people don't "respect" their views--and then turning around and blatantly disrespecting them. Hypocrisy isn't limited to a specific belief system.
@hoseasmate (720)
• United States
11 Dec 12
Case in point: Madelyn Murray OHare (or however her name is spelled) changed the course of this nation by her request that G-d be removed from the school system because of her athiestic beliefs. Yet, she failed to instill those same beliefs in her son, or they failed to take...and the son became a Christian. The one she sought to influence the most; the one she wanted to save from the religious indoctrination; wound up being the one that converted. Perhaps if she had not been such a crusader she would have kept her son in her court. Maybe we should not try so hard to enforce our beliefs on others, including our children, and just live them before the child so the child can choose and internalize their own beliefs.
@chrystalia (1208)
• Tucson, Arizona
11 Dec 12
I am a fan of leading by example, myself--and answering questions as well. It cuts both ways--many atheists grew up in religious households as well. When it comes to raising children, the best anyone can do is live by their principals and answer questions honestly, I guess--when the kids grow up, they can choose what they will follow.
