Shouldn't legal provisions be part of statutory labeling
By vanny
@vandana7 (98996)
India
October 7, 2017 12:29pm CST
Background...
I borrowed from bank, and the bank lost 1st page of the deed document. I did not know what my legal rights are. Net can give confusing replies, and so also the advocates.
It took me a while to realize I can approach consumer court because the property is worth xyz INR.
So my contention is...
All services and products should be accompanied by a mandatory sheet that the consumer would have rights to claims if any under consumer court (or whichever court) in case of defective service, or product.
I was wondering whether I should be approaching the Central bank, i.e., Reserve Bank of India. The bank's panel advocate had clearly said there is no remedy, and some of the other advocates (reputed ones at that), had said the same thing. Obviously, these other advocates were also taking that stand because they are on panels of other banks, and they can't be taking contrary stands for their clients and me.
But there is remedy! And if the bank knows, bank is supposed to include it as part and parcel of its application form of loan.
Kind of In case of complaints, you may approach
a. b. c.
What do you think?
By the way, I filed my case papers yesterday. Dead tired...settling some things. A lot is still pending but basic papers have been organized. :)
6 people like this
7 responses
@topffer (42156)
• France
7 Oct 17
We have no consumer court here, but there is something that I find weird. If I understand you signed a loan with a bank, so you should have received a copy of the contract ? If the contract has not been recorded (it can be done by the tax administration that keeps a copy here, but it is optional), who can prove what was written on this page 1 ? ? ?
To have read again, a mandatory sheet accompanying a product has nothing to do with a contract. If this text is written like that you have not a chance to succeed by invoking it, but it is just my own personal opinion and I am not an Indian lawyer.
In France, in this case, I would ask to a civil court the annulment of the loan contract, as it is incomplete. Annulment without any interest or fee, because it is the fault of the bank if it is incomplete. You would have to pay back what remains of the loan, with your own funds or by another loan in another bank. It is not impossible that the bank would have find the page 1 before the trial. It would be the best way to dispute the request.
2 people like this
@vandana7 (98996)
• India
7 Oct 17
No..none of the banks here give copy of the contract to the borrower. They don't even give a list of documents they collect from the borrower.
I have paid the entire loan amount Top. Paid entire loan amount with interest.
It is not I who is cheating the bank. Sigh
It is the bank who carelessly left the document page...god knows where and is now unable to return it to me, after I have paid the entire loan amount.
1 person likes this
@topffer (42156)
• France
7 Oct 17
@vandana7 I was not speaking of cheating the bank but of asking an annulment without any fees of a contract that could not be anymore fairly applied. At is has ended, there is indeed no reason to do it.
I hope you will see no inconvenience if I ask a few more questions : what is worth this page ? I mean, can somebody use it against you in the future, and how ? Why are you so interested to have this lost page ? Can you explain that to a nitwit like me ?
1 person likes this
@vandana7 (98996)
• India
7 Oct 17
@topffer .. The first page is the most crucial page of the sale deed. On the top of it, you have the document number noted. It has the vendors names mentioned therein.
Behind it ..there is the sub registrar's stamp, mentioning when the document was recorded (the date can differ from the date mentioned on front facing page), the folio number, record number etc.
The buyers and sellers affix their thumb impressions on this obverse.. and so do witnesses.
It is crucial because without this page, I cannot sell the property, nor get loans, nor get approval to expand or reconstruct the house, nor get reverse mortgage.
No buyer here will come forward to buy a property with such defective document.
Courts obviously take this lapse in duty by the bank seriously because yes, it is possible to do mischief, and to prevent mischief, the person is forced to sell the property to somebody who trusts him or her.
IDBI Bank will have to pay compensation of Rs 3.22 lakh to a Pune man after it lost the original sale deed of his property, which he had submitted while procuring a home loan in 2003.
1 person likes this
@crossbones27 (48480)
• Mojave, California
7 Oct 17
I hope it works out and at least got it started. Not sure I will ever trust banks but that is just me. Hopefully one I can trust more than 50 percent would suffice. I mean at least screw us half as bad and I still have the bad jokes.
1 person likes this
@vandana7 (98996)
• India
7 Oct 17
More than 50 percent? LOL
Actually, people should be taught how to manage monies from very childhood. Then perhaps we will understand how banks work, and also how much profit they are making in any deal for their shareholders so that we can bargain better.
2 people like this
@vandana7 (98996)
• India
7 Oct 17
@crossbones27 ...You want an honest answer...it will irritate you no end, because I do understand some of it...think you can hold that anger and do something about it all? Then I will elaborate some of it.
1 person likes this
@crossbones27 (48480)
• Mojave, California
7 Oct 17
@vandana7 Actually your shareholder point is spot on, but you think they will ever teach that accurately amd would banks give honest info without loopholes
1 person likes this
@suripunj (956)
• New Delhi, India
7 Oct 17
Just because you are missing a piece of paper does not establish any thing nor does it refute anything.
I am sorry to say but this case is fabricated, because on request bank is obliged give you the copy of all papers on which you are the signatory.
1 person likes this
@vandana7 (98996)
• India
7 Oct 17
On sale deed, I am not a signatory. Sale deeds are not agreements. They are conveyance deeds. The seller conveys. To safeguard the interests of the buyers, the local government has mandated that a sheet wherein buyer's pictures and signatures are there be included.
No it is not fabricated. The first page is misplaced at the bank.
I requested the bank. Bank is refusing to give me anything other than certified copy and clean encumbrance certificate, for which I don't have to go to the bank at all. I can obtain those myself without collecting any papers from the bank, and anybody can.
I don't think you have come across such an issue before.
I had taken a home loan from a private bank in 2006 to purchase a flat jointly with my spouse and repaid the same by Oct 2009 not foreclosure due to high intere
@vandana7 (98996)
• India
7 Oct 17
@suripunj Oh great...yeah..I was lucky I got the guidance at last.
The situation differs from State to State.
My advocate has finally filed the case yesterday...so I do have 90 days from now within which the Consumer court is to give its verdict.
IDBI Bank will have to pay compensation of Rs 3.22 lakh to a Pune man after it lost the original sale deed of his property, which he had submitted while procuring a home loan in 2003.
1 person likes this
@suripunj (956)
• New Delhi, India
7 Oct 17
@vandana7 yes not such situation but won against them in many other cases.Is the ground of refusal is justified or is there any AIR record you could find justifying their refusal.As far as court is concerned -i do not know about consumer but in civil or High courts bank often looses the case and i have my pleasure to see the bank mangers being pulled up in the court.
1 person likes this
@MarshaMusselman (38663)
• Midland, Michigan
7 Oct 17
I understand a bit more after reading your replies to topffer, but I don't understand why the bank wouldn't have kept a copy of the page you need and why they cannot supply you with one in their files. Did they lose the paper before they even gave it to you, or would you not receive it in the first place until after all the monies were received? Either way, I don't see how they could lose the only copy in existence.
Do you have proof of your payments to the bank for the property in question? If so, I'd think someone could rewrite the document you need and you could get it authenticated once that is taken care of?
1 person likes this
@vandana7 (98996)
• India
7 Oct 17
They keep a copy - xerox copy. But that is not acceptable to other bankers or prospective purchasers. Prospective purchaser would insist on original sale deed, else he would say thanks but no thanks. That means it reduces saleability. Similarly, no banker would offer any loans to me or my heirs if I do not have original document, or duplicate sale deed. Sub registrar cannot issue duplicate sale deed. Is not allowed to. I have been there, knocked the doors of many sub registrars and even the registrar.
1 person likes this
@MarshaMusselman (38663)
• Midland, Michigan
8 Oct 17
@vandana7 Did the bankers think they had already given you the first page? I don't see how they could lose such an important document especially since you legally paid the price they were asking.
1 person likes this
@andriaperry (116860)
• Anniston, Alabama
7 Oct 17
With my dealings with the USA court system this sounds like you are going into court about property, what is wrong with the property that you are defaulting on bank payments?
Is the missing front sheet a list of " if" statements? meaning if this property is not....
No matter what the worth of the property is, your got a loan for that amount so if you only owe one payment and you do not pay it, the bank has the right to take it, sad but true.
NO never go to the source, the bank in your case, always get yourself an attorney, ot if you have the knowledge to file yourself and fight it them do so.
Make sure you have ALL your paperwork for the courts to examine, plus extra copies so if one goes missing. Proof is what you have to show.
1 person likes this
@vandana7 (98996)
• India
7 Oct 17
Thank you for coming here. I was hoping you would.
a. It is about property
b. I am not defaulting. I have paid the entire home loan with interest, upfront. Not defaulted even once. Nor delayed.
c. The first page ..is that of conveyance document. Out here, it is called Sale Deed. So sale deed first page is crucial. On top of it ..the number of the document is written. Behind it, the date when it is registered, and in which folio, which page, etc. is mentioned.
Thereafter, my signature, address, and thumb impression is affixed there..on reverse of the page, as is signature of witnesses and their thumb impressions.
The sub registrar then affixes his note saying these people signed before me, and I am recording this total sale deed comprising. n number pages.
The other pages of sale deed do not have such information on reverse. They are typed sheets, with just a stamp and some information as to their page number...
Anybody who gets the first page, can request for a certified copy, and recreate the entire document, sell the property.
