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similarities in tolkien and rawlings email this discussion to a friend?

myLot reputation of 95/100. underdogtoo (2288)   ranked 10 out of 14 in the hobbit4 months ago

I read the trilogy of JRR Tolkien a long time ago and it was a very fascinating read. When the Harry Potter books and movies came out I could not help noticing some similarities foremost of which was the use of giant spiders. I thought Rawlings lifted the idea from Tolkien. What do you think?

 
 
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procne (36) response was accepted on 6/17/2008.
denotes best response.
tags:  harry potter, hobbit, tolkien, rawlings, books
 
1. Hastur (36)   4 months ago

Yes, there are indeed a lot of similarities. But also, most of Tolkien's work is based on Norwegian and other nothern european legend. The ring itself, for instance, there is this legen about a dwarf, who found a ring at the bottom of a river and which made him invisible. Tolkien got together a lot of folklore from different countries and put them together. Rowling has done pretty much the same. A good story succees on the way its told, and how the carachters interreact. They are both good in their own fields.
Try some science fiction books. Most of their stuff its original, not from other mythologies or folklores.


myLot reputation of 95/100. underdogtoo (2288)   ranked 10 out of 14 in the hobbit  4 months ago

I like myths, legends and fairy tales too. They seem to be something that come from the mists of time which makes them believable even when telling something outlandish and improbable. Science fiction on the other hand tends to become science reality as time goes by. I like Jules Verne.

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2. myLot reputation of 81/100. TheSpy (3399)   4 months ago

Hi Underdog:

I think they are very similar. What you think might be true... but I haven't read books by Tolkien or Rawlings for a very long time.

Have a nice evening.

Ivor


myLot reputation of 95/100. underdogtoo (2288)   ranked 10 out of 14 in the hobbit  4 months ago

I haven't read any book by Rawlings but I have seen several of the Harry Potter movies. She has done very well for herself, indeed. There was one controversy early on when someone accused her of stealing or plagiarizing their work but that died down quickly.

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3. procne (36)   3 months ago

When I saw the name 'rawlings' I racked my brain to remember which author you were referring to. Good thing I looked up the responses, you were actually referring to JK Rowling author of Harry Potter. Both authors are very imaginative, they created a whole new world and getting the readers to embrace it, love it and even try to live IN it. I'm not much a fan of Rowling though. JRR Tolkien's one of my utlimate authors I look up to. All those maps, worlds, people, languages (he created his own languages for each race), places, creatures and stories. Aside form The Hobbit and LOTR, he also has Lost Tales and Silmarillon. These books accounts the history of each major character like Galadriel, Elrond, and Arwen. All those creative juices. I can imagine he's creativity and imagination were overflowing he needed an outlet badly. Thus the creation of other books complementing the characters of LOTR. Jk might not top that. But who knows.


myLot reputation of 95/100. underdogtoo (2288)   ranked 10 out of 14 in the hobbit  3 months ago

I stand corrected on the name of the author of the much-beloved Harry Potter. As someone else has pointed out, they drew, both Tolkien and Rowling, heavily on Northern mythology which makes it even more interesting. There seems to be an upsurge in interest on these matters, I just saw the movie on the Brothers Grimm which puts a new, modern take on fairy tales.


procne (36)  3 months ago

Thanks to our modern technology, it's possible for movie makers to adapt our favorite adventure and fantasy books. Ever read the book series 'Wheel of Time' by Robert Jordan? Surely you'll love his books too. He's on the same genre as Tolkien's. In fact more on Tolkien's style. You should. From the very first book, you'll get hooked!

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4. myLot reputation of 91/100. tthom64 (169)   3 months ago

One of the most noticeable similarities in these two books as well as others in this genre like Eragon and the books by Terry Brooks I think his name is, is the wise old wizard or mentor, that rides with the hero and is obviously much stronger and more knowledgeable, but for some reason cannot be the one to overthrow the evil in the end. So they usually die or something so that the hero has to go on alone.


myLot reputation of 95/100. underdogtoo (2288)   ranked 10 out of 14 in the hobbit  3 months ago

Now that you mentioned the wise wizard, I am reminded of Merlin and King Arthur. There is a parallel and a twist in Arabic fairy tales which have the wise but often treacherous vizier to guide kings and sultans and is usually the arch-enemy of the hero.


myLot reputation of 91/100. tthom64 (169)  3 months ago

Yeah, like in Aladdin - or was that just the Disney version?

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5. myLot reputation of 74/100. puccaLOVESgaru (431)   3 months ago

yeah, somehow it is. i can see the similarities on some folklore they used in their books. but its still quite different. lol! its complex but its not. lol. ok, im stopping now, i cant understand me either! rasp


myLot reputation of 95/100. underdogtoo (2288)   ranked 10 out of 14 in the hobbit  3 months ago

I like reading fairy tales, folklore, myths and what not. There are very clear similarities that one can easily find no matter if the setting is in ancient Europe or ancient China or Japan. There must be a common origin or if not, a commingling of sources brought by travelers and merchants.


procne (36)  3 months ago

Kudos to that. Plots based on ancient europe, myths, folklores and fantasy adventure are very appealing. Those worlds sweep you away and makes you wish those worlds ACTUALLY exists.*sigh* It'd be astounding to know Middle-earth exists OR existed.


myLot reputation of 91/100. tthom64 (169)  3 months ago

Other than the Shire, I think Middle Earth would be too scary a place for me LOL. I would really like to see the elfin city though. That would be cool.


myLot reputation of 95/100. underdogtoo (2288)   ranked 10 out of 14 in the hobbit  3 months ago

The elves were a big eye-popper for me and also the dwarves. I was used to thinking of elven folk as wee creatures. Here they were magical creatures with lots of wisdom and grace and beauty. Dwarves too were less comical characters but more heroic and powerful than ordinarily depicted.


procne (36)  3 months ago

tthom, why is middle earth scary for you? I think the place is great!!! It'd be cool to live there AFTER Sauron's defeated of course. No one wants to mess up with orcs. Scary. Anyway, LOTR gave dwarves a somewhat new image. When I was a kid, I always imagined dwarves to be REALLY tiny and has magical powers. In LOTR however, Tolkien gave it a more realistic image. They don't do magic but they're brave warriors, wealthy, and established wonderful kingdoms in the mines. Among the made up creatures, for me the best were the elves. They were portrayed to be something more than doing magic, granting wishes while asking for something in return but ELVES were shown to be peaceful and beautiful people, immortal, and full of wisdom. LOTR never stopped amazing me until the last page. I just can't get enough. SIGH.


myLot reputation of 91/100. tthom64 (169)  3 months ago

Procne, you hit in on the head - the Orcs. They scare me! Those black horsemen were no picnic either. But they made for a wonderful read huh? Loved the books and movies. Someday maybe I'll be as brave as Frodo. Course maybe he wouldn't want to deal with nuclear weapons, asteroids, and terrorists LOL.

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6. jdrhodes (88)   3 months ago

I fail to see the similarity as being just between the two. Certain fantasy elements lend themselves to being repeated. Spiders creep people out. Big spiders are scarier. More primative and alot more formidable. Stephen King's IT and Arachnophobia both use the giant spider as well. I would say that Tolkien and Rawlings both were more influenced by the Arthurian Legends. What I mean to say is Merlin would be the archtype that is embodied by Gandolf and Dumbledore. It is the idea of the heroic epic journey that Beowulf, Jason and the Argonauts, Hercules, and other myths and legends embody. J.K. Rawlings has sucessfully modernized the hero journey tale, without making it any less fantastic or mysterious. Remember that Arthur's tale begins with him as a child, and he is the "chosen one." Ditto Frodo and Harry, although why Frodo doesn't curse Bilbo for finding that pesky ring I can't imagine. Excalibur, Sting, Griffendores' Sword. The stories are the same because people really haven't changed as much as we believe they have since medieval times. We just employ new technologies to the same ends. A book is still a book. We just make a movie instead of a play. Isn't it interesting that Rowlings wizards never use cell phones or computers to aid their magic? It seems the more our world looks like Star Trek the more we want to be wizards and pirates. Go figure.


myLot reputation of 95/100. underdogtoo (2288)   ranked 10 out of 14 in the hobbit  3 months ago

Your discussion is quite involved and lucid. I agree that archetypes are bound to be there when talking about literature, legends and myths. I think deep down we might share very similar roots and these have been shrouded in mystery as time wore people's memories down. When they surface as new material their similarities begin to show even when these are not intended to be copycats but more an expression of an archetype.


jdrhodes (88)  3 months ago

Sure, we all have character stereotypes...they are based on age, gender, occupation, wealth, and yes...race. The reason these stereotypes are popular is because people can relate to the character, either they identify with their situation directly or the character reminds them of someone they know.

Let's use Harry Potter as an example. When we first meet Harry he is living in a closet with his custodial guardians. Harry is an outsider. He doesn't fit in with this family. I'm sure that any person who has had to play second fiddle to a sibling can relate to how Harry feels, without the writer even saying how he does. Harry's situation is comically over-the-top, but when you live in that situation everything does seem to be magnified anyways. By placing Harry in this kind of situation we sympathize with the character. Who hasn't felt like an outsider at some point in their life. This allows us to directly relate to our protagonist.

Some of the other characters embody other stereotypes...Hermione is a brain, Ron is the poor kid with holes in his clothes, Hagrid is kinda dumb, Dumbledore is the wise mentor, ect ect...with these characters it is not crucial to directly identify with them, only to recognize and associate. This is your "supporting cast."

Shakespeare is one of the earlier examples we have of stories where the characters are fleshed out with these distinguishing traits...my recommendation is NOT to read Shakespeare, which is tedious and unpleasant, but to find a good community theatre that knows how the Bard works. Go see one of his comedies and you'll know if it is good because you will laugh. Shakespeare works up love triangles with letcherous old men and great schemes and they are very amusing, and pretty naughty.

The lesson here is while we complain that stereotypes are counterproductive to progressive thinking, they are there because often they do pan out. Comedy, drama, movies, cartoons, books, editorials, and just about any form of entertainment of this sort utilize the stereotype extensively. I sugest that instead of complaining about the old stereotypes, we develop new ones. A stereotype does not have to be negative, on the contrary it can be very endearing. Have you you ever met someone new, but they reminded you of someone else you knew before? They may have had a similar appearance, mannerisms, style of dress, or even just had the same name? Did you find yourself reacting to them much like you would the person you already knew? I know I have. Perhaps you made a correct assessment, perhaps your assumptions mislead you. The point isn't whether you were right or wrong, but the fact that you made assumptions based on superficial observations. We all do this, it is part of how we enteract with our environment.

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