How would you react!?

It's really good to see you too, Natrak!:-)

This isn't actually a hypothetical situation. I have put the question in general terms just so people could respond honestly, plus I didn't want to lose some of my friends over something that they may not understand. In the scenario that I put, your country IS aware of the foul play of this other country that your country is helping but your country is being led by people not courageous enough to turn the tap off, on their own. Quitting support is the best thing to be done. A similar scenario in the past worked very well, the other country came to senses, really fast. It's a pity when leadership isn't trusting the national resources, people and otherwise.

Thank you for sharing your views, I appreciate:-)

I was watching Imran Khan tonight on CNN and that interview clarified lot of things about Pakistan and political situation there. I assume you are talking about Pakistan right? I don't know if you watched that show, but he openly said that U.S are supporting current president, who, by the way, have little influence or endorsement in the nation, and what they should support is democratic elected government.
He said some other things, regarding this relation between U.S. and Pakistan, as well, I don't know if I should go in details here.
All in all, it helped me to understand your post better.

ASA Kamran..:)

Hello john_galt44,

"That is the relationship in a perfect world,of course,and is becoming more and more elusive."

Yes, that's the reality, well said. Friendship isn't a reality anymore in international relations, it used to be in older days, at least to a considerable extent. Now, it's only a game of interests. But, at least, one should reciprocate to some extent. The second country that I am talking about is ALWAYS treacherous to first but the first has its limitations and can't respond as well as it should be.

What is so damaging is when the leadership itself isn't capable enough to ensure that the the national interest is always a priority.

Thanks for sharing your views!:-)

Hello morgandrake,

Well, I must not say which country I am talking about or else I may lose some of my friends. You are a rare example from country because I haven't found many on here who would even like to see, honestly, just the past three decades. If they do, they would be demanding hanging Reagan and Bush senior alongside saddam hussain because both of them are no less culprits. Al-Qaida was created in my country with the understanding of your country's diplomats to engage Russia in Chechnya and China in Sinkiang. Taliban was created to engage Iran (as a part of the deal alongside two other main objectives). For some people of America that I have had a chance to debate here, it seems as though it's OK to do terrorism against Russia and China but not against USA!!!

Britain isn't far behind USA in supporting terrorists. Many of the so called high profile terrorists have been 'proper' special operations personals of MI6 including the one who killed Daniel Pearl and the one who allegedly masterminded 7/7.

Thank you for sharing your views:-)

A little clarification so that you don't get confused...when I said that Al-Qaida was founded in my country...I meant Pakistan, my country of origin. I am living in France for studies and that's what appears on my profile as my country which actually isn't:-)

Kamran, after comming back and reading this all again, I feel I am in the position of having to apologize. I will be doing so shortly as soon as I can more effectively respond to this one and put any emotional aspects aside that it involves for me a s a u.s. citizen. I realize this is a scenario that can apply to a number of natoions and may not even have been mine that was included. this is one of those things that is answerable both at the black and white leverl and then, colored by exactly how certain terms are used in it and the personal and political views of the author of it.
so, for the time being, please accept my sincerest apology for the way in which I responded to the entirety of the thread instead of the just your initial scenario and for the seeming emotional out burst instead of an analytical and pragmatic sense.

Hello xfahctor,

First of all, I am sorry for responding late, I don’t get as much time now as I like to. Secondly, there is no need to apologize to me. I like patriots, and their emotional attachment, because they are the ones who, if understand any wrong done by the executives of the country, would move faster and with strength just because they want the best for their country/state. I consider myself a patriot…a true patriot; my patriotism compels me to try to stop my country’s executives if I believe what they are doing is not in the interest of my state, country and people. I consider true patriotism to be honest and sincere with the state, not necessarily with the government, because both may not be exactly on the same line. If Government is doing fine for the state, I’ll support it no matter what! However, I have said it before and I’ll say it again that I consider myself a citizen of the world. I really think that America (or France or China or any other country) is MY land. There are many nationalities in my lineage. So, my patriotism wants the best interest of my country but not at the cost of others. Of course, Pakistan is and will always be my priority since it has done the most for me and I owe much to her.

Thirdly, I think I need to explain a bit more. My choice of words can be wrong (English is not my first language, sometimes I am not as much careful as I should be) but I know my intentions. So, if you thought reading my post that I am talking against a ‘nation’, whether yours or any other, please know that whenever I talk against a country, America, Saudi Arabia or even my own country, I NEVER mean ‘people’ or ‘nation’. I always target the executives, the government or the directly responsible. That’s why I made a precision with the word ‘security apparatus’. I hope it would clear a few things for you.

About Al-Qaida…I said that it was created with the understanding of diplomats from your country. Of course, they didn’t do it on their own. I didn’t even say that it was created during Afghan war. Your country’s executives were interested in engaging Russia and China (please read history of Chechnya and Sinkiang after its creation), and Saudi Arabia has always been interested in engaging Iran. It wasn’t in the interest of my state, China is our strategic partner. So yes, I would say openly that while my country’s officials weren’t happy, yours and Saudis’ were, with its creation. It had American logistic and intelligence support, and Saudis’ financial support for many years to come. Same goes for Taliban until they burnt poppy, failed to sign an agreement with America about Central Asian pipeline project, and failed to engage Iran. When none of the objectives with Taliban were met, and people started wondering why your country’s executives are lenient with Taliban after so much had already happened (please note that Usama was already in Afghanistan, after being allegedly involved in embassy bombings, long before America withdrew its support for Taliban) Only then, Taliban became a target.

Unlike Al-Qaida, Taliban WAS in Pakistan’s strategic interest, too, alongside America and Saudi Arabia. Afghanistan had always been at odds with Pakistan before Taliban. Taliban provided us with strategic depth. Even then, it’s on record that my friends and I protested against it, not only on streets but I also wrote an article, in a local journal, about the consequences (my point of contention), exactly what we are seeing now. I was only a teenager back then.


As to America stopping helping Pakistan!

My friend, America hasn’t helped Pakistan as much as Pakistan has helped America. If the door gets closed, it’s your country that’s going to be on losing end. Sure, Pakistan will suffer but the equation has always been in the benefit of America. Ask any diplomat of your country who has worked in my country, but ask someone you have personal and cordial relationship with so that you get an honest response. Just for example, people in America are told (truthfully so) that America gave Pakistan $10 or so billion!!! Impressive isn’t it? What they aren’t told is what strings were attached and where Pakistan was required to spend these mighty Dollars? Research it and you will get the answer. I’ll help you. Pakistan was required to spend it (most of it) on purchasing weapon systems (required in the war on terror, not actually what was in Pakistan’s own interest) from American defense industry.

Back in 90s, Pakistan was the ONLY country in the region safeguarding American interests in the most important strategic region (its other partners, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Jordan, Egypt and Qatar are in Middle East). Russia and China to the north and Iran to west of Pakistan were/are America’s enemies, relations of America with India weren’t as friendly as they are now, which aren’t still quite friendly because of Russia. So, if Pakistan had turned a cold shoulder or even if it had just stopped helping America as much as it is doing now (just as it did in 70s that freaked out your administration of that time), America would have found itself in a troubling situation. Situation hasn’t changed that much to date.

At the end, I would like to reiterate that as much as I would personally like to punch every American President along with their cohorts especially those during and after WWII along with some of my own country’s executives and some others’, I would like more to sit on a dinner table or a cup of coffee having a lively, friendly conversation with my American friends. I do not hate America, what I don’t like are the terrorists and thugs occupying the Oval office, the Pentagon, and some in US congress and senate. If I hated America, I wouldn’t make friends with Americans nor would I wish to visit America to see the country, people and places. Would I? America has many, many good things, great people, enormous research and many great minds…many things to learn from. Plus, it’s MY land too:-)


PS: When I started, I wanted to pose some questions but I have already written enough! You must be tired by now, LOL! so I changed my mind:-)

Well, I'm not going to go in to a line by line answer on this. I feel it important to say however, I support my current adminstration. He was not my first choice, but I haven't seen a demecrat other than Lieberman I could vote for since before kennedy. I supprt our actions in Afganistan. Bush was left to clean up a pretty big mess left behind by Clinton, a mess you made great effort to detail. I support Iraq, though not for all the reasons given by the current adminstration. Those are far more complex and have a bit also to do with the Clinton presidency, as well as Bush senior's.
I'm not going to even touch Pakistan's standing with the u.s. and who has done what for who. That one alone is one that could ocupy an entire forum and would be far too exhaustive a discussion. I am content to think we have done things for each other. Some good, some not so good.
Your english is just fine incidentaly, words are just funny things. I do realize you are speaking of governments and not people. But there is a bit of a link In a country such as ours where the people have micromanging control over who is elected, official by official. I am my government.
Anyway, no hard feelings, it's just a touchy thing for me. I still extend an apology.

Hello xfahctor,

Again, no apologies needed! I understand your feelings and appreciate them, in principle.

Yes, Clinton did create a lot of mess but in my own opinion greatest mess, for America, was created before him, especially by Reagan and Bush senior. Then, the mess created by President Bush (current) has so much weakened America that it's nearly impossible now for America to maintain it's status as a super power. America is in downward spiral and only a very intelligent, wise and knowledgeable president could slow it down. But, I don't see that much capable a person running for American Presidency. McCain lacks intelligence and I don't think Obama is fit for America! but that's just me and it's Americans who have the right to choose whatever they like.

In my own humble opinion, Ron Paul could have been the best President(among the people who were running), not only for America (conserving its strength) but also for the rest of the world but he got kicked out much earlier.

As to your point about link between people and Government, you are right basically, there is a link as the people are the ones who select the government. But, I would like to think that most Americans select a president mainly on domestic agenda and not on his/her standing/knowledge on international issues. My suspicion was reinforced when I saw presidential debates of your current president, when he was running for the first time. He was more ignorant about international issues than an average American college student of political science would be.

Moreover, it's impossible to recognize a terrorist before they commit such an action. Plus, I don't think many Americans really KNOW what their Governments have been doing OUTSIDE of America's borders. Although, I won't claim it to be 'exactly' an accurate observation. This is my understanding based on my reading of countless discussions here on the lot. Even, many of the ones who portray to be concerned with international issues, are found to have huge discrepancies in their knowledge of the affairs, which I blame, mainly, to their watching channels like FOX, the most corrupt news outlet with a lot of audience.

However, I must say that same would be true for any country's population. Masses are usually more concerned with winning their breads and their immediate relevant issues than to indulge themselves in complicated international politics and issues. I believe that I myself am ignorant about many things...we all are. But, having some privileges in my homeland, I do know a lot, at least about my region and the players involved there!