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Treaty of Lisbon, questions for europe..... email this discussion to a friend?

myLot reputation of 78/100. xfahctor (5573)   ranked 63 out of 6,392 in politics3 months ago

I have been kinda half arsed following things in Ireland the past week or so and i have a question for my European coligues here. Reguarding the referendum the other day in Ireland on the Treaty of Lisbon.
Now, as I understand it, this was voted on once already in Ireland by referendum and it was soundly voted down. So I guess my questions would be, why a second referendum, who called it and why? From what I understand, the bone of contention among Irish citizens was that the the treaty would was a back door EU consitution that would over ride the Irish constitution when the two conflicted. I'll post the following article that makes this argument pretty ell, at least from my stand point.
Please, bear in mind, I am American and this does not directly affect me so I am offering no real opinion either way, it isn't any of my business. But I do usualy come down on the side of liberty and state soviergnty here in the U.S. so I guess my heart is with the people of Ireland, and besides, it is my direct heretige.
Please read the document before commenting, it contains relevent information.

http://www.wiseupjournal.com/?p=146

An EU Constitution: The Treaty of Lisbon is a revamped version of the treaty which gave the EU its own Constitution over and above the constitutions of its Member States, but which the peoples of France and Holland rejected in referendums in 2005. Instead of accepting that decision the EU Prime Ministers and Presidents decided to give the EU a constitution indirectly rather than directly, but not to call it a constitution, and on no account to hold referendums on it for fear people would reject it again.

Why an Irish referendum?: A referendum must be held on it in Ireland however because the Supreme Court laid down in the 1986 Crotty case that sovereignty in this State rests with the Irish people and that only they can surrender sovereignty to the EU by referendum, or else refuse to surrender it as the case might be. The purpose of the referendum would be to change the Irish Constitution so as to make EU law superior to Irish law in the areas set out in the Lisbon Treaty.

Lisbon gives the EU a constitution indirectly rather than directly: The two current basic European Treaties are called “The Treaty on European Union (TEU) and “The Treaty on the Functioning of the Union”(TFEU). These two documents include all the previous treaties from the 1957 Rome Treaty to the 2002 Nice Treaty. The EU Constitution which the French and Dutch rejected would have repealed these two treaties and replaced them with a document called “A Constitution for Europe”. The Lisbon Treaty implements 96% of the legal content of this “Constitution for Europe” by proposing amendments to the two basic EU Treaties and thereby turning them into the effective constitution of the new Federal EU that Lisbon would bring about.

The following are the main changes Lisbon would make in the EU’s two constituent Treaties:

1. Lisbon makes the EU Constitution superior to the Irish Constitution in all areas of EU law: We would still keep the Irish Constitution, but “Declaration 17 concerning Primacy”, which is attached to Lisbon, makes clear that EU law would have primacy over and be superior to the Irish Constitution and laws in any case of conflict between the two. EU law and national law deal with different areas and matters, but the EU now makes the majority of our new laws each year. The Lisbon Treaty would give the EU the power to make laws binding on us in many new areas and would take that power away from the Irish Dáil and from Irish citizens who elect the Dáil.

2. Lisbon gives the EU the constitutional form of a supranational European Federal State and turns Ireland and the other Member States into regions or provinces of this Federation: It does this in three legal steps: (a) giving the new European Union which it would bring into being its own legal personality and independent corporate existence for the first time, separate from and superior to its Member States; (b) abolishing the European Community which we have been members of since 1973 and replacing it with the new Union; and (c) bringing all spheres of public policy either actually or potentially within the scope of the new Union. From the inside this new post-Lisbon EU would seem to be based on treaties between States. From the outside it would look like a State itself. Lisbon would then make us all real citizens of this new Federal EU for the first time, owing to it the normal citizen’s duty of obedience to its laws and loyalty to its authority. One can only be a citizen of a State and all States must have citizens. We would still retain our Irish citizenship, but the rights and duties attached to that would be subordinate to those of our EU citizenship in any case of conflict between the two. The EU’s authority would be superior. Post-Lisbon, we would be like citizens of Virginia vis-a-vis the USA or citizens of Bavaria vis-a-vis Federal Germany. This new Federal EU would sign Treaties with other States, would have its own political President, Foreign Minister and foreign and security policy, its own diplomatic service and voice at the UN, and its own Public Prosecutor. It would make most of our laws and would decide what our basic rights are in all areas of EU law.

3. Lisbon shifts influence over law-making and decision-taking in the EU towards the Big States and away from the smaller ones like Ireland: It does this by replacing the voting system for making EU laws that has existed since the 1957 Rome Treaty by a primarily population-based system which would give most influence to the Member States with big populations and reduce the influence of smaller ones like Ireland. Under Lisbon a “weighted” or “qualified” majority vote (QMV) for making EU laws in future would be 15 States out of 27 as long as they included 65% of the EU’s total population. When Ireland joined the then EEC in 1973 we had 3 votes in making European laws as against 10 each for the Big States, a ratio of one-third. Under the current Nice Treaty arrangements we have 7 votes as against their 29 each, a ratio of one-quarter. Under Lisbon Ireland would have 4 million people as against Germany’s 82 million, a ratio of one-twentieth, and an average of 60 million each for France, Italy and Britain, a ratio of one-fifteenth. Under Lisbon Ireland’s voting weight vis-a-vis the other 26 Member States would fall to one-third its present level, from 2% to 0.8%.

4. Lisbon removes Ireland’s right to a permanent EU Commissioner: The Commission is the body which has the monopoly of proposing all EU laws, which are then made by the Council of Ministers, with some powers of amendment for the European Parliament. Under Lisbon Ireland would have no member on the Commission for one out of every three Commission terms. This means that for five years out of every fifteen, laws affecting all our lives would be put forward entirely by a committee of EU officials on which there was no representative from Ireland. The Big EU States would lose their right to a permanent Commissioner also, but their size and weight give them other means of exerting influence on that key body. As Dr Garret FitzGerald and others have emphasised over the years, being represented on the EU Commission is especially important for smaller States like Ireland.

5. Lisbon deprives the Irish Government of its right to decide who Ireland’s Commissioner would be when it comes to our turn to be on the Commission: It provides that Ireland’s present right to “propose” a national Commissioner and to have that proposal accepted by the others, would be replaced by a right to make “suggestions” regarding a name, but with no guarantee that a particular suggestion would be accepted by the 27 Prime Ministers and Presidents who would decide the list of Commissioners as a whole by qualified majority vote. If the Irish Government were to suggest someone as its EU Commissioner who had, for example, antagonised the government of some other Member State in the past, or who was regarded as not enthusiastic enough for further EU integration, it could be asked to suggest another name as more acceptable. The Commission President, appointed by vote of the Prime Ministers and Presidents, would decide in practice who Ireland’s Commissioner would be. The new Commission President could ask a Commissioner to resign at any time, just as a Taoiseach has full control over his cabinet. The new Commission would be like an EU Government, except that this government would not be elected by the citizens.

6. Lisbon gives the European Union the power to make laws in 32 new areas that are removed from the Dail and other National Parliaments: These new areas of EU law-making include civil and criminal law, justice and policing, immigration, public services, energy, transport, tourism, space, sport, culture, civil protection, public health and the EU budget. There would be majority voting also by EU Foreign Ministers in some areas of foreign policy. The EU Council of Ministers would obtain power to take decisions by qualified majority vote on many matters other than EU laws - up to 68 in all - so that Member States would no longer exercise a veto regarding them.

This increase in EU powers simultaneously increases the personal power of the 27 national politicians who make up the EU Council of Ministers by enabling them to make further laws behind closed doors for 500 million Europeans, while taking power away from the citizens and national Parliaments which elect those politicians and which have made these laws for their own countries up to now. Each shift of power from the national level to the EU entails a further shift of power from the Irish Dail and people to Irish Government Ministers at EU level. It hollows out our national democracy further. The Treaty also increases the power of the non-elected Brussels Commission, which has the monopoly of propo

 
 
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tags:  potatoes, mature content, europe, writing
 
1. flydanman (82)   ranked 939 out of 6,392 in politics   3 months ago

I think a lot of Europeans are very skeptical about an enlarged European Union with ever-increasing powers. People have fought for Centuries to have sovereignty and now that seems as though it's being eroded by a very bureaucratic EU. A lot of taxpayer money also goes to funding the EU and people seem to resent that, especially as tax rates in Europe are some of the highest in the world.

The Irish debacle is a sign of what the EU deems as "democracy". Essentially they think along the lines of "we'll give you a chance to vote because we believe in democracy, but we'll make you vote again and again until we get the answer we want from you". Democracy, but with a punch in the face with an iron fist.

In the UK, the very unpopular Labour Party has signed the Lisbon Treaty, despite pledging in their election manifesto to give a referendum. They didn't give one because they knew the British people would vote no. The Conservative Party, currently leading in the election polls for the next general election in May 2010, have said that they will give a referendum. The only problem is that if the whole treaty is ratified by all member states before the Conservatives gain power it could be too late. The EU already has too much control over peoples' every day lives and it's controlled by people who are ultimately unaccountable to the citizens of its member states. It's a very worrying organization that is hell-bent on gaining as much power as it can and it should be stopped.


myLot reputation of 78/100. xfahctor (5573)   ranked 63 out of 6,392 in politics  3 months ago

What I dont understand is, Ireland already voted it down once, why did it come up again? Who was responsable for forcing it? The Irish government?
When the U.S. was formed, our constitution was pretty simple and laid out a very minimal list of powers the general government would have, and in our 10th amendment it clearly stated that if it wasn't listed as a federal power, it defered to the state. this seems to be the exact oposit with the Lisbon Treaty. I would think if it ran that way, the treaty would be more accpetable.


myLot reputation of 88/100. starsailover (1295)   ranked 1,050 out of 6,392 in politics  3 months ago

This post contains content of a mature nature. You must be Signed in or Registered to have the option to view this content.

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2. myLot reputation of 83/100. jb78000 (1841)   ranked 197 out of 6,392 in politics   3 months ago

thumbup. a discussion on something happening outside the hamlet? good on you. i'll come back later with a longer comment (maybe) but right now i have some revision to do on those evil montrosities known as plant enzymes.


myLot reputation of 78/100. xfahctor (5573)   ranked 63 out of 6,392 in politics  3 months ago

lol, only because I am Irish and I have a few friends in another forum that this was a big concern with. anyway, would ove your input on this one....so I will leaves you to your plant enzymes for now.....
he he. theres one.


myLot reputation of 82/100. debrakcarey (1351)   ranked 157 out of 6,392 in politics  3 months ago

I had a thought when I first responded to this...think I will go ahead and post it and see what I get.

Perhaps it is the huge infusion of Irish DNA and culture in America that gives us our love for liberty and a good argument... wink

What say you?


myLot reputation of 83/100. jb78000 (1841)   ranked 197 out of 6,392 in politics  3 months ago

debra - i am not going to go for that one but you do know that you have created a massive gaping hole of opportunity for someone to really get digs in at the americans? i have been so tempted myself to let launch that i have decided that nobody is getting any remotely sensible responses until tomorrow - so by the way what is your favourite equine - pony/horse/donkey/mule? i like mules - they're bright and pushy but not to be honest the easiest beasties to train...


myLot reputation of 82/100. debrakcarey (1351)   ranked 157 out of 6,392 in politics  3 months ago

winkLike I said....Liberty...and a good argument! Go for it bunny, I see you're blue and not green. lol


myLot reputation of 83/100. jb78000 (1841)   ranked 197 out of 6,392 in politics  3 months ago

can't be bothered - hey do you know that blue has different political connotations in different countries - in your not irish country it means left wing (sort of) and in mine it means right wing. thought that being blue would be handily confusing for the politicos in here. btw you ever been to ireland?


myLot reputation of 83/100. jb78000 (1841)   ranked 197 out of 6,392 in politics  3 months ago

on and on the subject of irish and in the interests of annoying people. xfahctor - not sure how to break this to you but you are not actually irish. you are clearly an american.


myLot reputation of 82/100. debrakcarey (1351)   ranked 157 out of 6,392 in politics  3 months ago

Isn't symbolism funny that way. Like stars...some people are actually afraid of a five pointed star! And that swastika...or the GASP! the six pointed star!?

No, I haven't been to Ireland. I would love to visit...maybe even live there for a time.

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3. myLot reputation of 82/100. hornswaggled (1969)   ranked 253 out of 6,392 in politics   3 months ago

Good grief......that sounds like a takeover to me. Maybe I'm just a chicken little when it comes to big government but what is the Irish thinking to even get into this at all???
I mean; haven't they been pushed around long enough? Didn't they work so hard to get some semblance of control over their country?
I'm with you on this x....I'm suspicious of what this is and who's doing it.....


myLot reputation of 83/100. jb78000 (1841)   ranked 197 out of 6,392 in politics  3 months ago

hello hornswaggled. nice to see someone else taking an interest in other countries. take it you've changed your mind a little since last time i encountered you? not being sarcastic - i approve thumbup


myLot reputation of 82/100. debrakcarey (1351)   ranked 157 out of 6,392 in politics  3 months ago

@jb....let's not forget that the Irish don't take kindly to British interference either. wink

Better keep my mouth closed or I'll be seeing a blue bunny on my discussions too. cry

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4. myLot reputation of 82/100. debrakcarey (1351)   ranked 157 out of 6,392 in politics   3 months ago

I was unaware of all this happening. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

I don't pretend to understand it all. But I will say the spirit of the Irish people is for freedom from tyranny and the right to determine for themselves what will happen in their own country. God bless them all.

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5. myLot reputation of 66/100. 4ftfingers (778)   ranked 252 out of 6,392 in politics   3 months ago

I may be way off, or I may be stating the obvious, but this is my understanding...

Every country of the EU needs to approve the Treaty of Lisbon, for it to take affect, but before Ireland can approve the treaty, they need to change their own constitution because something in that is stopping them from approving it.

And so in the referendums, they are not voting on whether to accept or reject the Treaty of Lisbon, they are voting on the changes made to the wording in their own consitution. The first vote was part of the 'Twenty-eighth Amendment of the Constitution Bill 2008 ' and the second referendum was part of the 'Twenty-eighth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland Bill, 2009'. Until they agreed the correct changes, they will keep amending. After this, I don't think they get a referendum on the Treaty of Lisbon itself, I think it has to be granted a Presidential Assent (which I assume happens automatically).

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6. myLot reputation of 59/100. EnemyofEmpire (143)   ranked 250 out of 6,392 in politics   3 months ago

It's difficult to sum up what the Treaty of Lisbon is all about because it's a substitute for the European constitution which wasn't ratified because of France and Holland's rejection of it. Essentially it's the same thing with a whole load of amendments in various areas that have had to be written in so that all member states would accept it.

I don't personally like it for a number of reasons. I think it's the thin end of a wedge which will attempt to establish the EU as a federalist superstate in it's own right. It replaces the existing system where countries take turns at being head of the European council for 6 months and extends this term to 2 1/2 years. Any system which extends politicians term limits has to be suspect for me. They say it makes it more convenient for non-EU countries to deal with the EU. They have also combined the departments of internal and external affairs, probably for the same reasons. It looks more to me like a back door attempt to both centralise power and entrench such centralised power for a longer term.

They've changed the majority voting rights which gives less voting rights to smaller member states and more to the larger states. Again, increasing centralised power.

At the moment the UK and other countries have opt outs in certain areas such as justice and home affairs, but once power is centralised and entrenched, will that always be the case?

IMHO we should hold a referendum on the whole thing but that's not going to happen. The labour government know that it would be rejected so have back tracked on their pre-election promise (what's new?)and the conservative leader is pushing for a referendum but is fully aware that the chance of that is slim because only Poland and the Czech Republic have yet to ratify it; so I'll dismiss that as pre-election posturing by the conservatives. Poland look like accepting it but the Czechs might not as their current leader is against it (fingers crossed he'll reject it).

As far as I'm concerned we shouldn't even be in the EU. To me the EU has been just a nice diplomatic way of completing a job which a certain A. Hitler attempted 70 years ago.


myLot reputation of 83/100. jb78000 (1841)   ranked 197 out of 6,392 in politics  3 months ago

and here i am going to disagree on one thing. there are plenty of things wrong with the eu and the way it is headed and i would go along with most of your points there. however i think we should be in it and to some degree support it (without of course putting up with stuff too over the top). i do not like the way the world balance of power is at the moment. russia, china and the usa? - i'm afraid i would compromise to a certain degree to include number 4.

DISCLAIMER I AM NOT ATTACKING THE USA, RUSSIA OR CHINA - I THINK THE MORE GENUINELY THE POWER IS DISTRIBUTED THE BETTER. PUT DOWN YOUR HEAT SENSITIVE MISSILES DIRECTED AT MY FLAT. I HAVE PETS AND THEY ARE INNOCENT...


myLot reputation of 78/100. xfahctor (5573)   ranked 63 out of 6,392 in politics  3 months ago

"DISCLAIMER I AM NOT ATTACKING THE USA, RUSSIA OR CHINA"
I know, I already took out your stand by forces, so you can't now.
FOILED AGAIN!!!

Empire.
From what I am able to understand, basicly what is happening is an attempt a federation in almost the exact oposite method we did a few hundred years ago. Basicly this seems to be one that centralizes and consolidates power rather than distributes it largely among the federation's various states and retaining only for itself, that which is minimaly required to run a "nation".


myLot reputation of 59/100. EnemyofEmpire (143)   ranked 250 out of 6,392 in politics  3 months ago

You've got it on the nail there. From where I'm looking, it is indeed an attempt to claim single nation status for what is essentially a close collaboration of sovereign states. And what follows single nation status will be single government. I don't actually think they'll achieve that but it appears to be their ultimate goal.


myLot reputation of 82/100. debrakcarey (1351)   ranked 157 out of 6,392 in politics  3 months ago

As far as I'm concerned we shouldn't even be in the EU. To me the EU has been just a nice diplomatic way of completing a job which a certain A. Hitler attempted 70 years ago.

Centralised power? Fits right in with that NWO conspiracy theory...huh? Centralised power is kinda like the term New World Order, Bush (daddy and son) both used it and Obama is quite fond of it too.

To hear someone else say it (centralised power) in reference to what is going on is refreshing.

Sorry, don't mean to be sarcastic...there's some on here that think it could NEVER happen in America...and the fact that you used Hitler's attempt to rule the world as a way to wrap up your post. An opinion I happen to agree with, btw.

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7. myLot reputation of 50/100. Sourceseeker (339)   ranked 1,700 out of 6,392 in politics   3 months ago

Come on X if your writing this much you should be getting paid for it. The thing I know about Europe they remember War ravaging in their cities. Something that we as Americans do not know. It tempers their responce to situations while we in America are more used to being cowboy like. You should write articles and get paid. Try Associated content and give me referral. Unless your already writing somewhere else.


myLot reputation of 78/100. xfahctor (5573)   ranked 63 out of 6,392 in politics  3 months ago

lol, I am already a an AC member, I haven't written anything in a while though. I'm not very good at it. Once in a while I get a wild hair and write something but it's been a while. I do have a little something in the works that my go up there in a few weeks, a piece on the whole false left/right paradigm.
I didn't write the piece I cited in the original post for this thread, I wish I had, it's a brilliant piece of work, I wish I was even half that good.

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