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The year of the Lord must coincide with Jesus' death or the year He was born.   email this discussion to a friend?

myLot reputation of 75/100. achilles2010 (2097)   ranked 510 out of 6,501 in religion 2 years ago

Gregorian Christian calendar had placed the year of birth of Christ around 1 BC. Modern scholars, however, do not agree; they say Christ was born around 4 BC. Christian monk Dionysius Exiguus had fixed the birth of Christ in the year 753 after the founding of Rome. In Roman chronology the era of the founding of the city ‘ab urbe condita’, or AUC) dates from April 22, 753 ¼ and the Julian era date from the reform of the calendar by Julius Caesar in 45 BC. In face of such disagreement, I am wondering whether the ‘year of the birth of Christ has been fixed correctly?

Bible says a star had appeared in the east. It says, “Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? For we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him", Matthew 2:1-2.

May be that Star of Bethlehem was Hailey’s comet. The periods between Comet’s approaches to the earth usually vary from 75 to 79 years because the gravitational forces of other planets change the comet’s orbit slightly. Last, it had appeared in the year 1986, so it will appear next in the year 2061 - 2067. Since Halley’s Comet appears at this interval, thus the year of its sighting around Jesus’ birth ought to be 33-39 BC. Christ died at the age of 33. Therefore, year of the Lord must coincide with His death and not the year He was born.

I would like to hear other’s opinion on this as well.


Star of Bethleham
 

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Pose123 (8254) response was accepted on 5/1/2010.
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tags:  astrology, astronomy, birth of jesus, halley's comet, history
 
1. myLot reputation of 69/100. JerusalemFolk (2413)   ranked 452 out of 6,501 in religion   2 years ago

Dear Achilles,

The Talmud says there were actually two men called " Yeshu", Jesus. The first one was the student of Yehoshua ben Perachyha, who passed away approximatly 125 years before the destruction of the Temple ( 70 AC ). The secund Jesus was born 68 years before the destruction of the Temple. That Jesus called Yeshu the Notsri was stoned according to the Talmud , Sanhedrin 43. The Roman first had him stoned for rebellion. At that time it meant to throw a very big stone on somebody. Jesus died immediately and after he died he was hung. According to the Talmud Jesus didn't die on the cross. He was already dead when he was hung on the cross.
The historian Flavius Josseph wrote the famous book " The war of the Jews against the Romans " and he speaks also about two Jesus. May God bless you.


myLot reputation of 66/100. Starchaser (773)  2 years ago

Does the Talmud say anything about why he was stoned?
It's very interesting, since the skeptics always said that Jesus never existed.


myLot reputation of 75/100. achilles2010 (2097)   ranked 510 out of 6,501 in religion  2 years ago

Yeshu was a common name like Joseph and Mary. Nearly half a dozen Mary are there in NT. Stoning, crucifying and burning at stakes too was a common occurrence. I am speaking about that Jesus who just before dying uttered a prayer, "Father, forgive them, they know not what they are doing". I do not think other Yeshus too had uttered the same prayer. May be Talmud had missed out the great event.

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2. myLot reputation of 95/100. The_Lamb_Lies_Down (6932)   2 years ago

Well...although you do give a logical explanation for the star and all, I think Hailey’s comet actually moves, and the Bible describes the star, if my memory is correct (it's been several years since I have opened one) as not deviating from it's place in the Heavens.

Your discussion definitely makes one think...


myLot reputation of 75/100. achilles2010 (2097)   ranked 510 out of 6,501 in religion  2 years ago

When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was. Mt 2:9. It means the star was moving. It was not stationary. Thanks for your response.


myLot reputation of 95/100. The_Lamb_Lies_Down (6932)  2 years ago

till it came and stood over where the young child was.

At which point it was stationary, no?


myLot reputation of 86/100. owlwings (12358)   ranked 503 out of 6,501 in religion  2 years ago

From Matthew's Gospel, the wise men observed the star 'at it's rising' (or in the East). Since they came from the East to Judea, they must have travelled West (so not 'following the star' in the literal sense).

It's likely, however, that they were astrologers as well as astronomers - there was no distinction in those days - and so were pursuing information that they had deduced from the appearance of the 'star'. (See the links I've provided below).

Nice to see you back, Lamb ;)


myLot reputation of 86/100. owlwings (12358)   ranked 503 out of 6,501 in religion  2 years ago

A star only becomes stationary (in relation to other stars) if it is in orbit round the sun ... hence either a planetary conjunction or a comet is likely. Since Herod ordered the killing of 'all first-born males under the age of two years' after enquiring in detail about the star's first appearance, it suggests that the star had first appeared about two years earlier. Conjunctions do not usually last that long and it is very unlikely that a comet would have been visible, especially as a noticeable object, for that long.


myLot reputation of 66/100. Starchaser (773)  2 years ago

Folks, ever think of... UFO? :)


myLot reputation of 95/100. The_Lamb_Lies_Down (6932)  2 years ago

Actually, I have often offered the theory to friends that everything in the Bible would make perfect sense if God was actually an alien...

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3. myLot reputation of 86/100. owlwings (12358)   ranked 503 out of 6,501 in religion   2 years ago

Halley's Comet is not the only explanation for the Star of Bethlehem. First of all, I have just noticed (in the passage you quote) that if the men say that they SAW a star in the East AND they 'came from the East', they cannot have been FOLLOWING a star (it would have been behind them).

Other explanations for the star include a supernova and an unusual conjunction of three bright planets. At the time of Jesus' birth, astronomy (especially to the East of Judea) was sufficiently advanced to know the difference between the conjunction of three planets and a 'star'. The phenomenon, however, may have been misreported by someone who knew less about astronomy than the experts from the East.

There are several other events mentioned in the Gospels, however: the fact that Mary and Joseph were in Bethlehem because of a census and also the fact that Herod was the ruler of Judea at the time. These are identifiable events (from Roman sources) and tend to fix the time of Jesus' birth at around 4BCE.

Jesus' age at death is not directly stated in the Gospels (though Luke says that he was 'about 30 years old' - for which read 'between 28 and 32' - when he began his ministry) and so can only really be inferred from Luke's information, the calculated date of birth and the calculated date of the crucifixion. All of this information may seem incredibly vague to us today, who are used to the influence of the media and to exact records being kept. Two millenia ago, there was no such thing as local newspapers and records (many of which are now lost) were only kept of events which were significant to the rulers concerned. Many, many events and decisions went unrecorded.

Most of the events surrounding Jesus' birth were reconstructed very much later when it was realised that Jesus was someone special and it is obvious that many of them were taken 'from memory' rather than from written records. We can only say that some of them may be accurate and that some may be 'to the best of knowledge' and others still may be complete fabrications or simply poetic additions.

A very good and complete evaluation and explanation of various astronomic (and other) events can be found here: http://www.astronomynotes...

The information in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_Bethlehem is rather less helpful but an interesting read, nevertheless.


myLot reputation of 75/100. achilles2010 (2097)   ranked 510 out of 6,501 in religion  2 years ago

It is recorded in the Gospel that ‘Star of Bethlehem’ attracted attention of three wise men of the east. Who were these wise men? The people before had a notion that the comets are heavenly omens. Babylonians, Egyptians, and Mayans had developed the first constellation maps and useful calendars; but only Babylonians had perfected the calendar by studying of the motions of the Sun and Moon. Perhaps they were astrologers from Babylon; only they could have known about planets, stars, and their positions. As early as 400 BC Babylonians could predict the time of the new moon and the day on which the new month would begin. They also knew the daily positions of the Moon and Sun for every day during the month. Babylonians were also able to calculate the planetary positions; and knew how to represent their eastward and retrograde motions. Since wise men from Babylon were already so advanced in astronomy, it is highly improbable that they would have mistaken the dazzling object due to pairing of Jupiter and Saturn; or of Venus and Jupiter as a star. Further, the pairing could not have produced a dazzling object, as the star of Bethlehem is traditionally depicted.


myLot reputation of 86/100. owlwings (12358)   ranked 503 out of 6,501 in religion  2 years ago

Don't forget that the 'traditional depiction' is, itself, only a representation of the description in the Gospels.

It is quite likely that the 'wise men' (magi, in the Greek) were astrologers from Babylon and that the 'star' they described was, in fact, a unique and meaningful configuration of planets rather than a specific and individual star or other heavenly body.

Matthew's story must have been put together from stories related many years after the actual events, very likely information which was passed around from mouth to mouth amongst early Christians. One can only think of them, in today's terminology, as 'urban myths'. There may have been some truth in them but there is very likely to have been some ornamentation and circumstantial addition as well.

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4. myLot reputation of 97/100. Pose123 (8254)   ranked 30 out of 6,501 in religion   2 years ago

Hi achilles, You may be right about the legend of the star being Halley's Comet but I really don't see why it matters if Jesus was born in 1 BC or 4 AD. There are those who say that Jesus is a fictitious character who didn't live at all, but I find that something difficult to believe. Perhaps, as some say, it really doesn't matter because we have the teachings. Blessings.


myLot reputation of 75/100. achilles2010 (2097)   ranked 510 out of 6,501 in religion  2 years ago

I admire your faith in Lord Jesus Christ. I agree it is more important to believe in Jesus Christ. I like your short and sweet answer.

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5. myLot reputation of 66/100. Starchaser (773)   2 years ago

Wow! I never related the star with a comet. If you're right, everyone would feel fooled having the current birth date, but what about the roman king Herod? Did he rule by the time? Things must get in line together to get the correct time, and Herod can't be left out of this.


myLot reputation of 75/100. achilles2010 (2097)   ranked 510 out of 6,501 in religion  2 years ago

New Testament is quite unclear whether Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the great, or Herol Archelaus or was it Herod Antipas.Herod the great had reigned between 74 BC to 4 BC. Herod Archelaus had reigned between 4 BC to 6 AD and Herod Antipas had reigned between 4 BC to 39 AD.

In the Bible, Archelaus is mentioned in the Gospel of Matthew. According to Matthew 2:13-23, Joseph, Mary and Jesus fled to Egypt to avoid the Massacre of the Innocents. When Herod the Great died, Joseph was told by an angel in a dream to return to Israel (presumably to Bethlehem). However, upon hearing that Archelaus had succeeded his father as ruler of Judaea he "was afraid to go thither" (Matthew 2:22), and was again notified in a dream to go to Galilee. This is Matthew's explanation of why Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea but grew up in Nazareth.

Herod the Great appears in ancient Christian scriptures, in the Gospel according to Matthew (Ch. 2), which describes an event known as the Massacre of the Innocents.

According to Matthew, shortly after the birth of Jesus, Magi from the East visited Herod to inquire the whereabouts of "the one having been born king of the Jews", because they had seen his star in the east and therefore wanted to pay him homage. Herod, who was himself King of the Jews, was alarmed at the prospect of the newborn king usurping his rule.

I believe it was during the reign of Herod the Great Jesus was born, therefore the probable year of his birth 33-39 BC is correct.

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6. myLot reputation of 72/100. barehugs (5852)   ranked 844 out of 6,501 in religion   2 years ago

Who knows when Christ was born or when he died? Who knows for sure whether he even lived in Palestine? When there are no proven facts to base conjecture on, can anything be factual? Few Biblical stories can be proven, but Archeologists have used the Bible to pinpoint and name ancient cities and villages that they happen upon in their digs. Christianity would gladly give a fortune to anyone who could prove the life of Christ in the Holy land. To this end thousands have been working for hundreds of years, but not one shred of credible evidence ( even in the Dead Sea Scrolls) has ever been unearthed or uncovered! Would God have allowed this travesty to exist for 2000 years, unexplained, if it was the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, (so help me God?) Stop kicking a dead horse, and get on with life!


myLot reputation of 75/100. achilles2010 (2097)   ranked 510 out of 6,501 in religion  2 years ago

Even if I assume that Jesus never existed; but then who could have narrated those parables? Did authors of the Gospels steal them from some other religion or some other scriptures? Nature of parables shows that none other but only Jesus could have narrated them.


myLot reputation of 72/100. barehugs (5852)   ranked 844 out of 6,501 in religion  2 years ago

Parables were not the personal persona of Jesus. History is filled with Great Teachers. The ancient Greeks, Romans, and even the Chinese (none of whom ever heard of Jesus) all had Great Teachers.
Here is an example from Chinese Literature-
A young man who lived by the sea loved seagulls. Every morning at daybreak he would go to the seaside and play with the gulls. Hundreds of gulls would come to him and not fly away.
His father said, 'I heard that seagulls like to play with you. Catch a few for me so that I can play with them too.'
The next morning when the father went to the seaside the seagulls swooped about in the skies but none came down to him.
The message of this parable is that one may try, but cannot, hide one's inner thoughts. Even birds and animals can sense one's true feelings.


myLot reputation of 75/100. achilles2010 (2097)   ranked 510 out of 6,501 in religion  2 years ago

While these wise men of the yore in their parables spoke about dogs, cats, birds in the sky and reptiles, Jesus only spoke about 'Kingdom of Heaven'. While these men spoke about the world around them, Jesus always spoke about the world beyond. There was none born like him neither before, nor after.


myLot reputation of 72/100. barehugs (5852)   ranked 844 out of 6,501 in religion  2 years ago

My Dear Man! Here is a parable purported to be from Jesus:
6Then he told this parable: "A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. 7So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, 'For three years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?'
8" 'Sir,' the man replied, 'leave it alone for one more year, and I'll dig around it and fertilize it. 9If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.'

This is good Farming Advise, easily obtained by a visit to your nearby Agricultural Extension Office. No need to go to the world beyond!(or the Kingdom of Heaven!)


myLot reputation of 75/100. achilles2010 (2097)   ranked 510 out of 6,501 in religion  2 years ago

There is another Parable of the Budding Fig Tree is a parable told by Jesus in Matthew 24:32-35, Mark 13:28-31, and Luke 21:29-33. I am mentioning it here because whenever Jesus spoke about 'fig' trees he meant 'Kingdom of God'

According to the Gospel of Luke (21:29-33):

"Look at the fig tree and all the trees. When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.
"Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Now concerning the parable you mentioned in your post, Jesus was not giving a farming advice but he was speaking of unrighteous. Even if they do not give good fruits, God has patience with them, he nurtures and nourishes them. He does not hew them down immediately. Jesus was explaining God's way of doing things. Jesus always spoke in wider sense. One has to grasp the meaning of what he said.


myLot reputation of 72/100. barehugs (5852)   ranked 844 out of 6,501 in religion  2 years ago

Of Course He Was! In the vernacular of Jesus, Fig trees = the Kingdom of God! Give me a Break! or is This Christianity in a nut-shell. Reaching out,to grasp at straws, and give yourself a goody, goody Feeling. (Jesus is there for me, but Always- speaking in tongues) in a wider sense.) Yes, this takes a LOT of sagacity! One has to work at it, and forget logic. Clearly, its impossible, but faith will overcome all things religious!

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7. myLot reputation of 77/100. verptc (235)   ranked 4,211 out of 6,501 in religion   2 years ago

There are so many inconsistency or inaccurate record of Jesus birth . In NIV record Jesus was born in between 6/5BC since no historian can follow the correct date of birth to Jesus we have to accept what is nearly true in between 4BC when Herod the Great dies. End of BC and start of AD is the start of counting for years, so it is not correct to start counting years at birth of Jesus in between 6/5BC. The year of the Lord must start upon his death. You are correct to that point.


myLot reputation of 75/100. achilles2010 (2097)   ranked 510 out of 6,501 in religion  2 years ago

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8. myLot reputation of 32/100. Augustinev (5227)   ranked 1,959 out of 6,501 in religion   2 years ago

About the birth of jesus there is difference of opinions. Much of world celebrate X'mas on 25th December. and other s say that birth jesus was on night, and other opinion that Between April and September. then another opinion is In the year B.C 5, in Bethlehem, Judea. any way there was different opinion about birth of Jesus and celebrating Christmas in different dates in different places in the world. herod died in BC 4. At very young age jesus died Bible says jesus dies at the age 33.
augustine


myLot reputation of 75/100. achilles2010 (2097)   ranked 510 out of 6,501 in religion  2 years ago

In 46 BC, Caesar established a 365-day year with a leap year every fourth year. Besides, we are not sure if it was Herod the great or Herod Archelaus or was it Herod Antipas. More over before Julius Caesar, the year had 304 days. See my comments on Starchaser's post at #5.

To me celebration of Christmas on December 25 appears logical because Christ must come at the end of the age to usher in a New Era. He is harbinger of a New Age. 25th December is the first day of the last week of the year; and thereafter, the New Year beings. Likewise, Jesus was born in the last century of the previous era. If you divide the century by 3 then you get 33.3. Jesus had lived for 33 years during the last lap of the century. After his death, the New Age began. I see the hand of divine providence in fixing the date of his birth on 25th of December.

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