I WANT ANSWERS (dammit!)
By gardengrrl
@gardengrrl (1445)
United States
May 30, 2007 10:51am CST
I have read a lot of immigration reform threads, chimed in on some, but I cannot find answers to these questions that vex me most. There aren't any easy answers to them, some border on the rhetorical, some are sure to get me flamed. So be it!
First and foremost, if I read the current plan right, workers already here can come forward, pay a fine, then go back to their country of origin and "wait in line". A, can you say, "disincentive"? Why in the world would anyone successfully hiding and making their way do this? They're undocumented, not retarded! B, who will do their jobs for the many years they will be sitting home, "waiting"? Are you ready to pay $5 per pound for say, apples? For a head of lettuce? $6 for a loaf of bread?
Next, I would like to know what the hell they're going to do about all the legal (or once legal) people who are caught in the application quagmire already? Our current system is a sham, a farce, and an obscenity. The only thing it does well is block immigration through legal channels, and is primarily responsible for the rest of the problem!
There's a fun little piece of a sentence in an article I read about this plan: "...the completion of an identification system to verify employees' legal status." To me, this sounds suspiciously like a national ID system, and that has all sorts of other implications that may not fit in this thread.
I referenced this above, but I'll ask it boldly here: Who among you is willing to pay the prices for goods that will have to be charged in order to pay minimum wage for all production? There's no other way to get Americans to take these jobs. Heck, I'll bet you won't be able to fill these jobs at minimum wage! The malls can't find enough people at slightly OVER minimum wage, where will we find field workers? The impact on our economy will be very bad, everybody OK with that? What can we do to avoid the hit?
Why did the children and grandchildren of the white Europeans who flooded this country by the tens of millions in the 19th and 20th century slam the door shut behind them? Does it have to do with the more recent waves taking on a decidely darker skin tone?
Immigration has always been the cornerstone of American greatness. Why are we trying to become an essentially closed society? In case no one has noticed, population explosions in several nations who are rising economic/political competitors of the USA have left us lagging far behind in numbers. Immigration has always helped bridge this gap. Immigrants have always helped swell the numbers in our military. Having multiple nations on the planet who can field an army larger than the entire population of our country isn't a good thing. There's one already,(China), India's gaining fast, they're just the two most obvious.
Finally, my choice for "Most Likely to Act as Torch Fuel", what is it that the white Christians who control this country are afraid of? Do they fear that, if they become a minority, they'll be treated with the same lack of understanding/tolerance they dole out to others? That's a reasonable fear, actually, since by the end of this century, whites will be less than 50% of the population of the US. There's no way to stop this, and it is a good thing. If we keep doing unto others as we're doing, the US is doomed to failure, just like the Roman Civilization. Who wants that?
OK, fire away, just remember that the Bible enjoins us to hate the sin, but love the sinner!
1 person likes this
5 responses
@maildumpster (3815)
• United States
31 May 07
"Finally, my choice for "Most Likely to Act as Torch Fuel", what is it that the white Christians who control this country are afraid of? "
I happen to be a white Christian and I am not afraid of any other color.
My parents came to this country legally. They had to learn the American English (as opposed to English they speak in the UK). My problem with immigration (legal or otherwise has nothing to do with the immigrants. My problem is with the businesses in this country who are so focused on making the biggest profit they can so they hire the cheapest labor they can. Sadly they fill these jobs primarily with immigrants - legal or otherwise. That takes jobs from legal Americans.
Or they outsource to other countries which also takes jobs.
There is a reason that many won't work for minimum wage - it isn't enough to live off of. Many immigrants share homes with as many people as possible and they pool their resources to pay expenses. If they didn't do this they could not survive on minimum wage either.
I am all for immigration but I am tired of money being spent to translate things into (primarily) Spanish. My father in law is hispanic and an immigrant too - he learned the language as did other members of his family and mine. I am first generation born American citizen and if it wasn't for immigration I might not be here since my parents met here.
It sickens me how much corporate ceo's and other high ranking business people make and then don't want to pay employees. It is no wonder that immigrants take all the jobs. Americans want to live decent lives not barely scrape by. Do you know that in the state that I live in you need to work close to a 90 hour week at minimum wage to be able to pay rent?!!!!
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@gardengrrl (1445)
• United States
3 Jun 07
The hourly wage one needs to earn to afford a modest 2-bedroom apartment in Delaware is $16.86 per hour. The average worker earns $8.75. I know exactly what you mean about wages being short of what's needed to live, it is sickening. CEO's of corporations used to earn 7 to 10 times the salary of the people at the bottom. Now, it's more than 25 times the worker's salry, and climbing! It is disgusting, and I hope we can figure out a solution before it's too late to avoid another revolution. I hate bloodshed!
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@gardengrrl (1445)
• United States
3 Jun 07
ps by white Christians who control this country, I mean the extremists who spend all the money to get their candidates elected and drive a "conservative" aganda. I'm guessing, but I don't think of you as one of that type, maildumpster.
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@Riptide (2755)
• United States
3 Jun 07
I am a LEGAL Immigrant and let me just say, that illegal immigrants are taking the easy way out. They need to be thrown out out of here. If they can't take the legal route like the rest of us, they have no place here. They are showing a total disrespect to this country and a total disregard for the law, the moment they step on american soil without permission. Why should they be rewarded for breaking the law?
LEGAL immigrants are having a hard time, while illegals are getting everything shuffed up their butts, like drivers licences, medicare and so on. That is absolute BS and an insault to the hard working citizens and legal immigrants in this country.
We legal immigrants suffer from their lawbreaking by having a harder time getting a citizenship or getting a greencard to begin with.
I have been arrested at the airport once, because I forgot my greencard and these people get to stroll in this country without one and get rewarded for it?? Bullsh*t!!!!!
Ship them out and like my hubby said, hang a sign on the statue of liberty that says "NO VACANCY".
I don't even want to get into what I had to go through to get my greencard, despite my husband being a citizen and serving in the military at the time!
So no,I have absolutely no sympathy for illegal aliens. They are disrespectful, lazy bums with no regards for rules, so all I can say is. Adios Amigos!!!!
1 person likes this
@HighReed1 (1126)
• United States
7 Jun 07
I agree with you Riptide!
I lived in a state once that had special schools for the kids that didn't speak English. Who do you think paid for those buildings being built? And the buses to take them to and from school every day? Is this part of the drain on the LEGAL taxpayers?! You bet!
They refuse to learn or speak the language and we coddle them! I have been refused many interviews because I'm not bi-lingual. Yet these people that can't speak the language are here driving our streets! I don't feel safe on the street.
Where would the forces come from to round the illegals up? Our military could do that. They are getting paid anyway. Let them do a job to help AMERICA for a change, instead of some other country.
If these illegals like this country so much, why do they go back to Mexico on holidays and long weekends to take OUR dollars to Mexico? I know quite a few do, as my husband and son worked with them.
Our own CITIZENS are eating out of garbage cans, living under bridges and doing without medications because they don't 'qualify' for help. Yet let an illegal immigrant come in and they get all the help they could ever want! That is not where I want MY tax dollars going!
@whiteheather39 (24403)
• United States
30 May 07
Everything you say is, as far as I am concerned having once been a LEGAL immigrant, absolutely true. I dont have an answer for why our elected official are pussyfooting around the whole deplorable and dangerous situation. Usually for politicians the bottom line is either, or both, votes and money. It is scary to think of the volume of illegals who are already here and without paying anything to offset the benefits they are receiving. This latest news from our Immigration department does not help the situation. I quote "For legal permanent residency and fingerprints the cost will be USD 1,010.00 for those over 14. The cost now is USD 325.00. Many immigration groups and some Democratic members of Congress have protested the fee increases, saying they will put citizenship and legal immigration out of reach of many."
1 person likes this
@Destiny007 (5805)
• United States
31 May 07
In the first place you are talking about illegal aliens.
These are criminals simply by the fact that they have come here illegally.
This is not to be confused by the folks who go through the necessary channels and procedures to become citizens.
No one is trying to stop legal immigration, and that is not the issue when dealing with the illegals.
Most of them don't pay taxes, yet they use the same benefits, schools, and medical facilities as the citizens do.
This is a serious drain on our economy, and on top of that, they want to incorporate their language and customs into ours.
If they like their owns language and customs, then why don't they just stay in their native country?
There is really no job that they do that cannot be done by American citizens, or migrant workers who are here by virtue of their permits and green cards. There are many who live in Mexico and still work here legally.
So what is the problem? Do you support amnesty? If so then you had best be prepared to grant amnesty to every criminal regardless of the crime they committed.
Either you live by the laws we have made, or you ignore them all.
I find your reference to the "White Christians" who are running this country to be curious.
I am trying to determine what bothers you...Is it the Republican president?
If the fact that republicans are usually Christians, then does that mean that when a democrat president is in office we should refer to them as White Satanists?
The use of the word white here could be considered as bordering on racism.
Do you have a problem with white people? What is your favorite color...would you prefer perhaps purple as presidential material? In what way does race enter into politics, especially these days?
I think you will find that most of the white population is a lot more tolerant of other ethnic groups than you give us credit for.
What I have no tolerance for are those who try to use race as a means to further their own agendas by using the technique known as "race baiting".
These are the ones keeping racism alive in America.
America is already doomed to failure because of the declining morals of the country.
1 person likes this
@gardengrrl (1445)
• United States
31 May 07
Hi, Des, thanks for stopping by, always look forward to reading your comments!
Just for the record, I am a suburban white girl, born 47 (almost 48!) years ago and raised Redneck in the glorious Pine Barrens of southern New Jersey. I can clearly remember separate facilities for whites and "coloreds", and KKK members openly bragging about the Klan. I know racism from firsthand observation, both the ugly fact and the stains in the heart. I hated racism even before I could tell you what the word meant, yet it still took years to erase the echoes from my mind. Race-baiting, indeed! The white Christians I refer to are self-identified as such: they gather together for political action with Christianity as their number one identifying, unifying characteristic, and all you see is a group of white folk. Sorry, I call 'em as I see 'em!
BTW, why are Christian and Satanist the only options? Wouldn't political discourse be much clearer if everyone would leave out the "my god's better than your god" bulls hit? As long as the PEOPLE engaged in it have some kind of moral underpinnings, we can get a moral result, no?
I don't think that "let 'em all in" is the answer, any more than "kick 'em all out" is. One of the most irrationally enraging (I mean, throw myself on the floor and drum my heels) aspects of American politics today is, everything is couched in absolute terms, either black or white, no gray whatsoever. This trend was created by political operatives and campaign strategists who sought to win elections, and it is incredibly damaging to our society! Immigration is a HUMAN issue, first and foremost. No rational, effective, productive, long-term solution is possible when it is defined strictly in terms of enforcement. All this drum-beating about fences and roundups is nothing more than a really loud version of closing the barn door as the horses disappear down the road. Another question, if you don't mind: what about all of the natural-born American citizen children of the undocumented workers?
I do have an idea where we might begin to come up with a solution, but I'm going to save that for part 2 because I have one other thing to say here, and I've already written a book!
At different times in our nation's past, the law said:
White people could own black people;
Women were the property of men;
Women could not vote;
Black people could not own property;
Husbands were free to beat their wives and children, and teachers could cane a student as they saw fit.
The beautiful thing about our system of laws is, it lives, breathes, and evolves. Every generation finds fault with at least some of the strictures of those past. When enough people agree (or enough money gets spent), the laws get changed. I, too would like to skip a Reagan era-type reform, because it didn't work. I'd just like for there to be a rational debate on the matter so we can craft something that will work and work well, for longer than an election cycle or two.
Peace!
@rowantree (1186)
• United States
1 Jun 07
First let me say that when it comes to the economy, it's a hard concept for me to grasp. I am all about being fair and the rules of business don't compute with me.
Speed up the immigration process. Allow these people in, but you need to screen them because we don't want to let in terrorists. As for the people who are already here illegally, do a background check then sign the papers & they return to wherever they've been living here in the States.
As for saying if all the immigrants were sent to their home countries then the prices of everything would go extremely high - are the companies really that stupid? $5 for a head of lettuce - do those companies really believe people will pay that much? Isn't it time that companies came down on their prices & quit taking such huge chunks of profit so they can have the newest, latest car?
Are we all forgetting where these people are coming from? They're coming from horrible conditions. Let them in here, this is supposed to be the land of opportunity - it was for the people who first came here, it should stay that way.
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