File Sharing....Is it breaking the Law or Not?
@Perspectives (7131)
Canada
March 11, 2008 10:03pm CST
I recently posted a discussion on copyright infringement. Most members are under the impression that they have a right to post music on their sites regardless of copyright. People seem to think that if they take the music from a play-list somehow that makes it legal when in reality it does not.
I will give you an example of something that happened to a neighbour's teenage daughter. She downloaded a movie from Lime-Wire and about a month later her mother got a letter from the internet service provider saying that MGM studios had requested that her internet privileges be terminated due to copyright infringement.
David is a computer support specialist and informs clients of something that many people do not realize. When ANYONE downloads ANYTHING their IP Address (who you are) is logged by your service provider and the file sharing service you are on. Consequently these Playlists and file sharing services could be sued by the record industry of America (RIA) to obtain your IP address for possible litigation...as was the case this week in Minnesota where a jury awarded the RIA $220,000 from a woman who downloaded music from a file sharing service. How they caught her was described above. What concerns me is that many members are unaware that copyright means that NO ONE has the right to use ANY material by ANY artist unless written consent is issued.
Another thing many people do not realize is that even if you pay for the song you downloaded legally, you have agreed to what is called an end-user license. This basically means only YOU can use the song and it cannot be transmitted or shared with anyone else.
The only time the sharing of any material legal is when it goes into what is called the public domain. This means the copyright has either been relinquished or signed over for public use. For example clip art can either be in the public domain or given away free of charge. When we post photos on Mylot we agree to allow them to go into public domain. If you read your user agreement that is what it says...so they have covered themselves as best they can.
I think many who surf the net have such ready access to music, written material and movies that they assume that it is 'free.' However, in reality the person who has created it...OWNS it. No one really has the right to take it without written permission from the artist.
So my questions about this are:
Were you aware of the legalities of copyright infringement? Do you think file sharing is illegal in this context? Are you concerned about the fact that your IP address is out there and if the RIA continues to make examples of people that they know who is file sharing and could take action as they did in our little town? Is there a moral or social concern about taking from any artist without their consent?
Just ideas to toss around...as we all do here.
Look forward to hearing your views on this one if you'd care to give them.
Raia
2 people like this
9 responses
@Aussies2007 (5336)
• Australia
12 Mar 08
Interesting point of view...
There have been many debates about this...
And the music and movie industry is prepare to go to any lenght to stop people downloading stuff.
When they catch someone... they make an example of that person to scare everyone. As I am writing this... there are over a million people downloading music and movies. So... as you can see... the one person they catch once every two months does not rate very high in the balance of things.
They been trying to close Limewire and other sharing sites for years... but have no legal ground to do so.
When you are downloading from a sharing site... you are not downloading from the site itself... but usually from several personal computers which can be located anywhere in the world.
Your ISP knows that you are downloading... but it does not know from where... and even if it does... because you are downloading the one movie from several computers... they are fragmented files which don't make any sense until the download is finished and forms one file. So your ISP cannot accuse you of downloading a movie... unless it comes and knock on your door to physically see it on your computer.
It is easier to get caught with music... because they are small files and you are downloading from the one and same computer.
However... if you are uploading to share your movies... your ISP knows the IP of where you are uploading it to. And that can get you caught. The real danger is in uploading... but then again... if nobody is prepare to take the risk to upload... there won't be anything to download.
Where do I stand on all this?
I have absolutely no sympathy for the music or movie companies. They both ripping off the public and the artists. Have done so for decades. It is a bad time we give them a bit of their own medicine back.
Artists get $2.00 for a CD selling $27.00 in the shop.
Actors in recent years have put a stop to the ripping off and negociate their pay check before making the movie. But only those actors at the top of their profession can do that. The lesser actors still get rip off.
Look at what has been going on in the US with the writer strike. Hollywood is incapable to put anything on screen without a writer. They pay the writer for its job... and then go on making profits for decades by putting the film on DVD... and they don't want to share that profit with anyone.
Look at us the public...
During the seventies and eighties... I bought over one hundred music LPs. And after they changed the format to CD... I had to buy the whole lot a second time in the nineties. So I paid them twice for the same albums.
Same goes with movies. I bought videos during the eighties and nineties... then again they changed the technology. You cannot even buy or rent a video anymore. They force us to change technology... that we want to or not.
I could go on... but don't ask me to feel sorry for those music and movie companies.
2 people like this
@Aussies2007 (5336)
• Australia
12 Mar 08
And another thing...
Your ISP is the biggest hypocrite of them all...
Why do people want fast unlimited broadband?
Mostly to download stuff from the internet.
You don't need unlimited broadband to surf the net and post responses on mylot. I do it on dial up.
Your ISP knows all that... but it has been encouraging everyone to switch to broadband for the past 5 years.
If you are paying your ISP big bucks in order to have broadband to download music and movies... the only one making money out of file sharing is your ISP. Think about it!
So if your ISP is so concern about piracy... maybe it should start thinking about sharing its profit with the music and movie companies.
Perhaps those people who make money from making DVD burners and DVD recorders which permits piracy... should also consider sharing their profit.
2 people like this
@Perspectives (7131)
• Canada
13 Mar 08
Hi Aussies..
Thanks for taking the time to present some really well-rounded perspectives here. David read your comments and he is on the same page with you on this one. Everything you suggested echoes how he sees things. For years he has said that the companies gouge consumers with the retail prices they charge in comparison to what it actually costs them to make it.
The changing technology and costs to end users is another good point. I also liked what you said about people downloading who would not have enough money to buy them retail anyway.
You and Mooch have pretty much stated what most people accept...the Genie is out of the bottle with file sharing and not much is about to change whether people agree/disagree with it or not. File sharing is a way of life for a lot of people these days...and it is a personal choice like most everything else in life.
I gave you my best response on this because I appreciate the in-depth commentary.
Raia
@daeckardt (6237)
• United States
12 Mar 08
Now THAT is scary!!! I have often seen people download music and movies from the internet, but I NEVER knew it could be that serious. I understand about the copyright infringement, but I had always thought of it in the context of not taking someone else's writing as your own. Fortunately, I don't often download music myself, but I know it happens. It is almost enough to make you want to forget about music altogether because buying it is so expensive.
1 person likes this
@Perspectives (7131)
• Canada
13 Mar 08
Hi...
Yes the incidents I described are unnerving alright. You might want to read Aussie's comments above. He offered some interesting perspectives and some of them mirror my husband's views as well.
You have a good point about the cost of buying music retail...in my view it is grossly overpriced...especially because they produce them for so much less. Yes, this is a dicey question alright...but I don't think people are going to stop...no matter how many people they nail. At least at this point.
Good discussions going here though...I appreciate your input.
Raia
@daeckardt (6237)
• United States
13 Mar 08
As far as the price of music, I never buy music. If I can't get it off the internet, I just listen to the radio. Even if I did get it on the internet, I just play windows media player and listen to it. I don't bother downloading. The internet in China is so slow that it would take too long to get anything. It is just as easy to not listen at all. And like you say, with all the people doing it, it would be impossible to make a dent in how much it is being done. The problem seems to be worse in China. There are so many sites here that if they tried to stop the American sites, people could try the China sites. There is no regulation against that kind of thing as far as I can tell.
1 person likes this
@daeckardt (6237)
• United States
13 Mar 08
I agree with your statement that if you are doing it for personal use it is ok. You shouldn't profit from someone else's work. Sure the recording industry does it, but individuals shouldn't be able to. I don't think that part is fair to the people who create the music/video, but it happens. When people go and try to sell something that is not theirs, it is stealing. When you just give it away, it might not be so bad. It works the same way with a book that my teacher gave us the manuscript for last term. The publisher gave her permission to give it to her students for personal use only. I was told not to give it to anyone else, but I was willing to share some of the information with my students because it could help them in their job search which will occur in the next few months for some of them and the next two to three years for others.
1 person likes this
@MrNiceGuy (4139)
• United States
12 Mar 08
Well technically, the RIAA doesn't have direct access to those IP's or their activity, that is based solely on the ISP's willingness to give that up or their compliance with subpoena.
And I wouldn't think that all end user license agreements include a provision of that single file being the limit of your ownership or usage, but some might include that. Software and websites have EULA's as well, they are simply the right to end possession of something if you break the EULA's terms of service type rules.
But yes, duh file sharing is almost completely copyright infringement these days. I thought everyone knew that after Napster?
1 person likes this
@Perspectives (7131)
• Canada
13 Mar 08
I appreciate your informative addition. From comments here and in the previous post about adding music to our sites here there are evidently some out there that have not connected the dots about copyright infringement.
Many who take music from Playlists did not consider that. So no, not everyone did know that and it was part of what I wanted to open the floor for discussion.
Good input..thanks for dropping by.
Raia
@arkaf61 (10881)
• Canada
12 Mar 08
YOu're completely right Raia.
Unless what we're downloading is ours, from someone that gave us permission , or public domain, it is illegal for all purposes.
THis does not necessarily stop people from doing it. WOrse yet, people often download it and then post it on the web somewhere and keep passing it on.
When I think about it, I have downloaded some things myself that could maybe be considered illegal.
I don't download music or videos though. Music maybe one or two songs that are really special. Usually something that I have trouble finding to buy.
But videos I prefer to rent what I want to watch. It's too much trouble and it takes too long.
YOu might be thinking - hnnn she mentioned the reasons why she doesn't but didn't mention that one of the reasons was because it is illegal.
I didn't on purpose. I wonder if I wanted to download a video if I would worry much about that part the prices of videos and music cd's are so high that should be illegal as well :)
NO, really I probably would give it a thought or two. But I don't know what I would decided in the end.
Probably not to do it LOL I"m silly that way . I always ask for permission for things whenever possible.
When I was making website graphics before, I had a list of artists that gave me permission to use their work. I always follow the rules and had a link to their sites well displayed in the pages.
The same with some music I used sometimes. THere are many new artists out there that don't mind that we use their music, specially if we leave a link or something that will take people to their sites.
It's a good way to have their music heard.
I confess I have gotten one or two games, but I often buy them when I am sure it is something I would like to keep.
In any case, yes, it is illegal. But people don't always think about that, or even understand it.Unfortunately those are the ones who in the end are caught.
It's important that people are informed and understand how things work so they won't end up in trouble without even knowing why.
WHen they do understand then it's their choice if they will do it or not, but that's different.
@Perspectives (7131)
• Canada
12 Mar 08
Hi again...good to hear from you. I've been on-again off again in my Mylotting these days and am quite behind in a lot of responses. I value your input and honesty about this subject.
I must admit that I did use Lime-Wire a number of years ago. Then when the whole concept of 'stealing' from other artists really hit me I stopped. David and I have upon occasion offered music or games to others as a 'Try-ware' idea. However, there is no denying that however we do it there is a lot of copyright infringement going on out there.
To me there is a difference in the odd copy of something for personal use only as compared to Playlists that have not received written consent from the artists and their music is being spread all over the internet without any thought that the artis is not receiving a dime for their work. Even those who pay for a download...it is still for their use only...not for greater distribution.
Should make for interesting reading. I had posted a discussion about those who have music on their sites and how they did it. As I read responses there it is clear many operate under an erroneous impression that the music is free because it is 'out there.' Some may think I am a party-po#@per' for drawing attention to this...but we are here to discuss things. And that we do!
I value your input and experiences as always. How is Baily doing? I responded to your message and assume you received it? Hope so it was good to hear from you.
Take care...talk soon.
Raia
@arkaf61 (10881)
• Canada
12 Mar 08
Yes, I find a difference between the odd download and the use of playlists that are shared over and over again. It doesn't make one less illegal than the other but it does make a difference.
I am a bit divided in what to think about it, because if in one hand I prefer to be on the legal side, on the other one sometimes things feel fair.
I think I mentioned before that I don't have music on my profile page in here, and that I actually prefer to visit pages that don't have it either - I mentioned that often pages with music take longer to load. I also think that it's not necessarily a good idea from the legal point of view. It's not only that the person downloaded and is listening to it at home, but they're actually putting it out there , it's even better than living the IP address LOL
Bailey is still spraying a bit. I am not sure what else I can do. It sure is less than what he used to but that smell is really bad.
I'm afraid I didn't get your answer. I have been having some trouble with outlook - it only has over 3000 messages ! I belong to a few graphics groups and they send so many emails. I tend to keep them to read later and then thi sis the result. Outlook doesn't work.
To be honest I though I had overwhelmed you with too much information :) I think it was a really long email that I sent you:):)
I am going ot the web see if I can find your email.
Have a great wednesday
1 person likes this
@Perspectives (7131)
• Canada
12 Mar 08
Hi again...
You might want to read Aussies comments...because in many ways they reflect the way David views things too...especially the amount of money artists make and what they gouge us to buy their work.
It is a really dicey moral/legal question that I think many of us struggle with...especially when funds are tight. My view is middle of the line. I think when a person downloads something for personal use it is a less of a moral delima than when they download and circulate it out there without any thought of the artist's rights. That is when their rights are really being violated...in my view. Downloading or copying for personal use only...well I know it is still illegal...but somehow it doesn't feel the same as those who have playlists that are not authorized to offer the volume that they do.
If you didn't receive my e-mail let me know and I'll see if I can find it and re-send it again. Good to know Bailey is doing some better...but I know how strong smells of cat urine can be. We removed all our rugs because one of our cats had that habit. Once his old 'spray areas' were gone he was less inclined to remark new ones. Hope it works out.
Chat tomorrow..signing off shortly.
Raia
1 person likes this
@palonghorn (5479)
• United States
13 Mar 08
Funny you should post this discussion, me and my s/o just had a similar conversation the other day. It is against the law since you are not paying for the goods or services. When going into the police academy they were asked if they had downloaded x number of music, videos etc from the internet, as it is considered theft.
1 person likes this
@Perspectives (7131)
• Canada
13 Mar 08
Hello...and thanks for your opinion..and sharing your professional experience. I think you have stated it in succinct and very powerful way. No matter how people try to gloss it over and pooh-pooh the severity of it...when all is said and done there isn't any way to polish it up.
Good input!!
Raia
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
12 Mar 08
Hi perspectives, I haven't downloaded any music as yet, but know that most people do. I know about copyright laws, but since it's so common, I assumed that it wasn't a big thing online. I hope a lot of people read this and take it seriously. Blessings.
1 person likes this
@Perspectives (7131)
• Canada
13 Mar 08
Hi again..
Yes, file sharing has become such a common practice that it is clear by responses here many have not taken it very seriously. We were shocked when our neighbor's daughter was sent that warning.
Even with events like these and the woman in Minnesota I am sure many people will shrug it off and continue thinking it will never happen to them. I am sure nothing will happen to a great majority of people...however, it wouldn't be fun to be among those that are caught.
Aussies presented some really interesting views on the whole thing and well worth reading.
Thanks for dropping by the regular way you do. You are a valued friend here. How is the weather where you are. We had a very Spring like day today and it is good to see the mountains of snow beginning to melt.
Raia
1 person likes this
@Lakota12 (42600)
• United States
12 Mar 08
I have heard this and I think it is wrong for them to go charge people for what they thought was free and free to share with out due notice.
FO rya know lots of poeple are doing it and if ya pay for a site I reall y dont see where that should be illeagle althho you do have a point there that is is.
What I wonder is it illeagle to download songs of way old artists that have passed on years ago and they no longer have family to calin any moneys from it like Tex Ritter or some old person like that?
1 person likes this
@WC1989 (595)
• United States
12 Mar 08
I've been aware of copyright laws for a while. Perhaps that is why I do not usually download music or movies. If I do want a certain item, I do go and find out if the copyright still holds up. For example-downloading videos from Legend of the crystals Final Fantasy is totally fine because the copyright no longer exist (though I did eventually buy the vhs for collector reasons).
Personally I don't care much for downloading things. I think what I download the most are:
Pictures (and I always check the TOS or copyright section of a site to find out their rules about borrowing/downloading pictures)
No-longer-copyrighted videos and music.
Free translations.
and Free ebooks.
As a person who likes to make my own music, and likes to do a few videos, likes to write stories and plays and likes to make pictures, I could never live with myself knowing that I would steal someone else's work.
@Perspectives (7131)
• Canada
12 Mar 08
Hi and as an artistic person I can appreciate why you are more informed than the average end user. As a writer I am also sensitive to the question.
No matter how people like to tell themselves that because everyone else does it that it is OK. That was what confused me about the number of people using music from Playlists here. I could not fathom how they had they right to do so. Every music label clearly states that no one is to copy the contents without written permission from the record company. Same thing with books and movies.
Interesting social dilemma alright. Thanks for your comments. I like your final comment..."I could never live with myself knowing that I would steal someone else's work." That says it all..even though others live in comfortable denial or remain uninformed. That is why I love Mylot...different perspectives everywhere.
Raia
@skinnychick (6905)
• United States
12 Mar 08
I have the rights from the artists for my profile music and they have rights legally to do the songs that were not written themselves. The thing is if you put your music on sites like reverbnation, my space, etc...and it is free wouldn't that artist be sharing it knowing it would be going onto playlists from that site? I think it may get sticky there. The guys I know on my profile want their music out there the more the better. Famous people always seem to put their new stuff up on my space and reverbnation and don't charge for it. In my opinion, that gives me consent to download it or put it on a playlist. They know about the playlists and reverbnation is designed for these playlists that you are allowed to link onto various sites. It is a sticky subject though..
1 person likes this
@Perspectives (7131)
• Canada
13 Mar 08
Hi again..
You have raised some good points about those who offer it for promotional reasons and have basically signed off on their copyrights. That is different than taking, art, music, written material without the written consent of the person or person's who created it.
Aussie's views are similar to David's about the gouging that takes place at the consumer end. Also copying for personal use seems like less of a violation than those who copy and allow others to copy, copy and copy. The Playlist question is a little dicey to me...because who knows for sure whether they have a right to be distributing it to the public on public forums like these?
I am sure people will continue to do so...because whether people agree with it or not...the Genie is already out of the bottle and I am sure no one will be able to get it back it.
Does make for interesting discussions though. Thanks for participating.
Raia
