Can believers in God be logical?

@CrazCo (409)
Canada
August 30, 2008 6:39pm CST
These two things contradict each other. They can't exist at the same time in my opinion. Here's why: There is no documented proof of any of the Bible's claims but in the Bible. You base you views entirely off faith when there is PILES of evidence against God. Example Evolution, Big Bang, Abiogenesis, Fossils, etc! God has never made himself noticeable to anyone since he supposedly was Jesus. I am mainly addressing the Christian faith. How can a logical person decide to believe in God despite the things that oppose it?
8 people like this
18 responses
@myklj999 (33116)
• Olney, Illinois
30 Aug 08
You base you views entirely off faith when there is PILES of evidence against God. Example Evolution, Big Bang, Abiogenesis, Fossils, etc! I must say here that these are not facts, but merely theories, and many of them are based on people assuming things that they do not know are facts. I am no Christian, but I will say that your beliefs are basically the same as theirs; you believe in something you cannot see and cannot prove.
3 people like this
@CrazCo (409)
• Canada
30 Aug 08
Abiogenesis has been proven to be able to occur through natural process. And EVOLUTION is a fact. The theory explains it. And my beliefs are not like theirs as mine can be observed through my five senses. God can't.
1 person likes this
@myklj999 (33116)
• Olney, Illinois
30 Aug 08
I should note: yes, there is proof Fossils exist, but evolution is a theory, just as the Big Bamg is. And fossils could just be a joke God is playing on us; who is to say He has no sense of humor?
5 people like this
@myklj999 (33116)
• Olney, Illinois
30 Aug 08
It is not called "Darwin's Fact of Evolution"; it is "Darwin's Theory of Evolution". Just because you assume it to be true does not make it a fact.
5 people like this
@redkathy (3375)
• United States
30 Aug 08
Evolution,Big Bang and the others are theories. I personally don't need a document to tell me what has been laid on my heart. I am a logical person. I did not decide to believe in God, as I said it was laid upon my heart. I do not knock or disrespect anyone who doesn't believe as I do nor will I argue for or against. It is between me and God. Hope you have a good night.
2 people like this
@CrazCo (409)
• Canada
30 Aug 08
how can you reject evolution though.. have you read into it.. it is factual information and clearly you can't claim it to be ridiculous coming from ape-like ancestors when the Bible says we come from dirt and a rib
1 person likes this
@redkathy (3375)
• United States
31 Aug 08
where did the apes come from?
1 person likes this
@redkathy (3375)
• United States
31 Aug 08
That's not what I asked. If man evolved from apes, where did the apes come from?
1 person likes this
@fwidman (11515)
• United States
30 Aug 08
Can they be logical? I suppose you'd be better off asking those scientists who create these theories who also attend church No, there is no logic in having faith. There is only faith, which is good enough for me
@CrazCo (409)
• Canada
30 Aug 08
i agree but can they be logical in general with other affairs.. or do you live your life entirely by the doctrines?
1 person likes this
@fwidman (11515)
• United States
31 Aug 08
No, I do not live my life entirely on the doctrines of my faith. I live my life with an open mind, believing that anything is possible
1 person likes this
@CrazCo (409)
• Canada
31 Aug 08
So you're merely a theist. I can respect that position.
1 person likes this
• United States
31 Aug 08
This topic is on fire... but I agree with the others... a theory is basically what you start with -- even though it has scientific evidence that it may be possibly true, it still has yet to be fully proven. I have yet to meet a scientist that can create something from nothing -- have you? I am not a christian. I am willing to accept any real truth, but so far there has been none. I will stick to what I believe is true and right and its the most logical thing I have decided to do for myself. If it feels right do it, if not screw it.
1 person likes this
• United States
31 Aug 08
Also you have to keep an open mind to the idea that the big bang theory and evolution may be false, which you seem to very stuck on... My question concerning the big bang theory is this: If there where swirling specs of dust that magically got pulled into this large hole of gravity, where did the dust specs come from? Is it possible that there was life before us for one... and if not then where did the dust specs come from? Before there was anything there was nothing its impossible for me to assume that nothing in it self evolved into dust and created a vast solar system with 1 planet that contains life that evolves like it did. That would mean the absence of everything would still equal something... a life form? possibly... that could be the awesome God we all are looking for... not much to look at tho is there? lol
1 person likes this
@CrazCo (409)
• Canada
31 Aug 08
First of all I am not stuck on the Big Bang theory. That, I admit, is not factual; however, it is a likely possibility. Scientists HAVE created life from non-life if you want to classify that as nothing to something. Even if you don't think the Universe could be eternal you must also claim why you think God could be eternal because he is far more complex than the Universe so him always existing is actually less likely.
• India
31 Aug 08
I don't think scientists have created life from non-life. In his book Science and Christianity: Conflict or Coherence, Henry Schaefer writes that such claim of having created life from non-life is not true till the date of writing the book. Schaefer is prof of Chemistry at Berkeley, five time nominee for nobel prize. I can't remember the page now cos my friend has borrowed the book.
@soooobored (1187)
• United States
30 Aug 08
You can absolutely be logical and believe in God. I'm not sure if there is any religion that 100% makes sense, but I think a lot of people take the stories as parables, good reference points to form morals. While there's no evidence proving God, there's also no evidence contradicting the existence of a god, only evidence contradicting the stories about God. I am a very logical person, and I absolutely believe in God!
1 person likes this
@CrazCo (409)
• Canada
30 Aug 08
I loved this answer. I guess what I should've asked was can a religious person be logical. I agree belief in God doesn't necessary oppose logic too much but the religious dogmas do.
1 person likes this
• United States
31 Aug 08
That's fair, and I'm looking forward to seeing reponses from the religious. Good post!
1 person likes this
@CrazCo (409)
• Canada
31 Aug 08
I wish I could edit my post, but oh well! I am anxious for more answers as well!
1 person likes this
• United States
31 Aug 08
Unfortunately, believers in evolution don't have their facts straight. Most of the "proof" that was given, has been proven in recent years to have been lies. The sketches of embryoes wasn't accurate, because the man who sketched them, assumed they would all look alike. So he simply copied. DNA evidence has proven that life didn't begin the way they thought it did, and has even proven that there was an "hourglass" effect. That life begin from a very small pool of genes, then expanded, then contracted, then expanded again. Why do you think so many scientists, these days, believe in "Intelligent Design"? Because their science, more and more is proving the Bible to be fact! Even Noah's ark was found! I've seen more and more scientists, these days, converting to Christianity, because they have seen what they aren't allowed to divulge: that there was an "Intelligent Designer", and all proof points to the fact that Evolution was a lie.
@CrazCo (409)
• Canada
31 Aug 08
The Noah's arc was proven to be a bunch of BS. A skeptical scientist left a piece of wood in water and chemicals for a long time and sent it to the company who claimed they found Noah's arc. They accepted it with no evidence other than the guy claimed it was part of it. So don't tell me they found it. Also the majority of scientists are atheists.
• United States
31 Aug 08
So you haven't seen the pictures of the Ark. The satellite photographs, that were quickly covered up. And, yes, many scientists are atheits. But more and more are turning to Christianity, because they are learning that their science is too often proving the Bible to be fact.
@CrazCo (409)
• Canada
31 Aug 08
I would love to see your sources for such information. As far as I know more and more go to atheism as science expands. I have seen the pictures. It just proves how easy you believe in things. A picture is enough for you? Come on. How come nothing Jesus did was documented elsewhere other than in the Bible. How come in past mythologies the "die for three days and become resurrected" is a recurring event?
• India
31 Aug 08
But is there documented proof about the authenticity of Illiad? I don't think so. By the way, evolution, big bang, fossil etc do not disprove God at all. Who says that evolutionary biology disproves God? Show me how you would do that. I hope you are not making the mistake which Dawkins is making. By your points God is not disproved at all.
@CrazCo (409)
• Canada
31 Aug 08
Not disproved in that sense I suppose. I mean they make it less likely he exists. No-one or nothing can undeniably disprove or prove God until the day we die and find out for ourselves
• India
31 Aug 08
I don't think they make God's existence less likely. All what you mentioned can be explained even when God is taken into account. I rather feel that morality / human rights etc can be better explained by invoking God or rather by seeing through the paradigm that invokes God. In a purely naturalistic paradigm I find issues like morality/human rights quite problematic in giving a good model for human civilization to flourish. But I agree that there is no way to disprove God, nor is there a way to prove God's existence.
@CrazCo (409)
• Canada
31 Aug 08
Ok put it this way. These theories help disprove religious text and if they are actually inspired by God they help make him less likely. If abiogenesis is true it disproves God creating all life in the 6 day period. If evolution is true it disproves the fact God created man from clay and they came from ape-like ancestors. If the Big Bang is true it disproves God creating the Universe in the 6 day period. Fossils tie into the evolution category.
• India
31 Aug 08
The logical thinking will not help at all the times. Many of the times we have to believe what we feel. The air, pain, hunger are cannot be seen by the human eye or can be felt with a human hand. You just have to feel them just like you have to feel the presence of the god. Your faith in the things you do is the reflection of the god and believe in god before you do anything. I think i am a good believer of God.
@CrazCo (409)
• Canada
31 Aug 08
You analogy failed. You CAN feel the air. You CAN feel and see hunger. You can FEEL and SEE pain.
• United States
31 Aug 08
Can YOU see the wind? Of course not! But you can see what it does.
@CrazCo (409)
• Canada
31 Aug 08
i said you could feel it...
• United States
31 Aug 08
I've never seen any documented proof about the Big Bang thang, it's a theory. Karl Marx had some great theories. No, I'm not Communist or anything "way out there". My belief is different from most that I know. To me the Bible is a book, much like other books wrote before it with the same story line. Since all of these books are so much alike, there has to be something true in the story they portray. The sun comes up every morning and gives us a new day. We make the day with our own actions. If we are "corrupt" we make a corrupt day for us. The sun then goes down on a bad day that we caused. Far too many never face the facts that lies and dis-honesty label them and bring them down. Logic/God/Us - hmmmm... who is to say what is really real? Outside my window I see a cute little squirell, he is real and I don't have to pinch myself to know that I am too! In my heart, I know that it took someone to bring me into existance. It wasn't a cosmic burst, it had to be a very intelligent being. So I give "God" all the credit and need to be more thankful than I have been. My life isn't always a "bed of roses" but I see flowers everywhere...
@CrazCo (409)
• Canada
31 Aug 08
I agree completely. The Big Bang theory is not a fact, but a very good idea. I fully admit that it could be wrong. However, since I believe evolution is fact it can't be wrong, at least in the sense I interpret it. You too have to admit, God COULD be non-existent.
• United States
31 Aug 08
Uh, "God" that I believe in isn't the same as most peg him. Did I say, "him"? I meant my higher power, which doesn't need a personaified label. To me, that being always had to be. I know this inside of me and count on it being there just like the sun that is always there.
@CrazCo (409)
• Canada
31 Aug 08
can't argue with that since i know nothing about it
@suspenseful (40314)
• Canada
31 Aug 08
You want a god to be like Zeus or Thor and take a physical form. God did in the person of Jesus Christ who looked human. In fact he was. You believe in evolution, but if you were to examine your own logic, animals eat animals and there have been when the mother animal hid her puppies from the father, because he might eat them. Now except in time of starvation, no human male has eaten the babies he produced. If we were descended from animals, apes, then we would act like them, and no amount of training would take that beastiality from them. The fossils came because there was a flood that wiped out all life except for the fishes and Noah and his family from the earth.Oh and if earth was millions of years old, there is no space ships taking people to other planets in great numbers that would have happened if the Flood never happened (great increase in population, and more people on the earth than now. So we would have to go to other planets, But of course, if you say we come from apes, we would have the ape nature and go on killing sprees all the time. And not when a war has been declared. Oh and faith is not logical, faith is what God gives us, but since you do not believe in God, or faith, just make sure when you build or buy a house or an apartment that there are no mirrors because you will never leave.
@CrazCo (409)
• Canada
31 Aug 08
That's the point of evolution. We evolve to suit our lifestyle. And by the way ape-like creatures don't eat their babies so what's your point? Our brain is so powerful due to evolution.... Of course we're not going to act the same as apes or we would be apes. It's speciation.
@CrazCo (409)
• Canada
1 Sep 08
Evolution is factual. The earth is not even close to 6,000 years old like the Young Earth creationists say. About the flood though, many theists will just say God can defy nature. He made it rain for some odd days and it created enough water..
@trixyteddy (1072)
• India
31 Aug 08
A discussion on believing in God can start and never end. Let those who believe, keep believing. I for one, believe there is a God up there, who is with us adn helps us every second. It is upto us how we use His help. For those who don't believe, I just pray to God that He opens their eyes.
@CrazCo (409)
• Canada
31 Aug 08
Well I have no problem with belief in God, but more-so religion because there is so much evidence to contradict it.
@CrazCo (409)
• Canada
31 Aug 08
You claim it to be truth? back up the claim with evidence
• Philippines
2 Sep 08
There is proof that Jesus exist, there is a coin called denario where it is used in that period. Jesus show denario to pharisees, and the denario coin exist, there are proof what the Bible claims, but if the person would meet Jesus in that should he believe that he is a God no? Even now there are videos that UFO's exist but people are not believing them.
@CrazCo (409)
• Canada
2 Sep 08
Care to show me your sources? I am skeptical of such claims
• United Kingdom
31 Aug 08
Here's my view on things, and I want to be careful what I say because I don't want to offend anyone! But, if you notice in the book of Genesis, right at the beginning, there are two creation stories and they are both different! You should read and analyse carefully chapters one through three. I am sceptical about the bible! Without question some of the stories are so beautiful and inspirational but I believe that's all they are, stories! I don't believe there's any basis in truth to them especially when it comes to the creation story. I think that you can come to the conclusion that some kind of creation took place, but not necessarily as it is written in Genesis. Our modern day scientists are proving otherwise, what with evolution, dinosaur fossils and the like. I don't want to go any further as this subject is hugely controversial and I don't want to rattle anyone's bones! Great discussion by the way, thanks! Andrew
@CrazCo (409)
• Canada
31 Aug 08
Thanks for your contribution. I agree the book of Genesis is logically flawed.
1 person likes this
• Indonesia
31 Aug 08
hi there, no need to contradict anything. you are talking about belief. belief is nothing to do with facts. we believe because we don't know, or we haven't known. if you board a bus to take you to another city (let's call it timbuktu), you 'believe' that the bus will bring you to timbuktu. why do you believe that? because you don't know if the bus will get you reached timbuktu. if you have reached timbuktu, you don't need to believe that the bus blablabla. you know that the bus blablabla. the things in the bible is all about belief, not facts. we haven't know that it really happen. so, let us be fair. christian believe that god exists. you also believe that god doesn't exist. why? because both the christians and you don't really know if god either exists or not exist. the 'facts' you mentioned prove nothing about the existence of god (i mean, they doesn't prove that god either exists or not exists. so, none of you can claim that the one is right and the other is wrong. just hold your belief and act accordingly.
@CrazCo (409)
• Canada
31 Aug 08
I can see, hear, feel, etc the bus.. it isn't the case with God
@magnet (2087)
• United States
31 Aug 08
Believers in God cannot be logical. I just have faith, I know that I know that God is real. I don't need proof. My bible tells me that faith is that faith is the evidence of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen. The word translated "substance" comes from the Greek hupostasis which means "a placing or setting under, a substructure or foundation." This word appears elsewhere in the New Testament as "confident" or "confidence" (2 Corinthians 9:4; 11:17; Hebrews 3:14). The word translated "evidence" comes from the Greek word elengchos meaning "a proof, or that by which a thing is proved or tested; conviction." The context in question deals with the existence of the universe, for verse 3 says, "through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."
@CrazCo (409)
• Canada
31 Aug 08
No sense in bringing a Bible verse since I don't believe in it. And if you don't need proof to believe in something doesn't that make you illogical, just saying. Can you tell me why your loving God created Satan, killed people throughout the entire old testament and condemns homosexuals?
• India
31 Aug 08
everything on this earth doesn't have logic. its just assumption until its proved. there are many incidents which science doesn't have an answer. i think yes they are logical. i think you are a believer of god
@CrazCo (409)
• Canada
31 Aug 08
Um, no I am not a believer in God! That proves, at least for you, that you lack logic. How could you deduct the fact I was a theist if I clearly am against it? Explain to me how one can be logical whilst believing in God a little more in depth if you could.
@chiyosan (30194)
• Philippines
31 Aug 08
you are noticeably driving at "to see is to believe" rationale. but i guess arguing or making my point with you is not the point. but then again, not all you see is the truth, how can you say that you have a soul if you havent seen your own soul? then maybe you don't have any with this argument. my point is, not everything we see is the truth, and not all things we don't see does not exist.
@CrazCo (409)
• Canada
31 Aug 08
I understand what you mean and agree. But I am trying to address the logic problem in here. Believing something you can't see is illogical because there is no evidence to support it. They COULD very well exist but one can't believe in it and still have logic in my opinion.
@santuccie (3382)
• United States
1 Sep 08
There is indeed evidence against the Bible, and therefore the Christian God. But while this may be off-topic, I'd like to see your evidence against intelligent design. Abiogenesis (whenever there is enough evidence to make a bona fide "theory" of it) and evolution do not disprove what Einstein described as "the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind." Irreducible complexity and the DNA information challenge provide more evidence for intelligent design than any opposing party has ever conjured up to disprove it. The best they could do was win a case in court with a contextual rebuttal. The question that follows in my mind is, "So, is that as far down as you can break it?" I invite you to engage me in a logical debate.