Are unions to blame for the big 3's troubles?

United States
November 18, 2008 12:26pm CST
I have been hearing on the news that part of the fiancial problems that the big three are having is due to the unions. The big three says ultra high cost union employees are increasing the cost of the cars they produce and not allowing them to as competitive against foreign made cars. DO you think that is true? Other countries can make care cheaper than we do. People seem to be buying more foreign cars than American made due to the affordable prices. If the big three can not compete with foreign car makers than how is a bail out going to help them? How is it going to make producing their cars cheaper?
1 person likes this
6 responses
@xParanoiax (6987)
• United States
19 Nov 08
No, I doubt unions are to blame for the car companies problems. If it was just an issue of them running out of money, then sure, okay...maybe. But it's not. Their problem is no one wants to buy their freaking cars anymore. Not here in the U.S., not anywhere. You COULD call that an inability to compete, I'd just call that, "Serious lack of foresight and ignoring the will of the consumer." Obviously, they haven't heard that the customer is always right. Therefore: the bailout only prolongs the inevitable unless they use that money to wise up about the cars they're making (which I doubt they well. Just like the banks didn't use the money they were given to save themselves. They just continued on their old bad habits that got them into that position in the first place)...and I'm not sure that they could be given enough money to really do that...anyway.
2 people like this
• United States
19 Nov 08
But then again, I don't have all the information on this that I should have...so maybe I'm only seeing part of the picture. *sigh*
2 people like this
• United States
20 Nov 08
The companies was mismanaged all around. I just love how they came to congress in three separate private jets, but were begging for money. IF you are that broke leave the jet at home (or better yet sell it) and start traveling commerical.
1 person likes this
@sharra1 (6340)
• Australia
19 Nov 08
Perhaps you think that the workers should work for free. What about the millions they pay the people at the top who have let the company fail. I am sick and tired of the workers always being blamed for the failure of the company leaders. The car industry is in trouble because it failed to make cars that consumers wanted and the changing times demanded. It continued to make big petrol guzzling trucks and SUV's when it should have been developing non petrol cars that were more economical to run. This is a direct result of their refusal to change their car designs because it cost too much money to retool a factory. Unfortunately for them their overseas competitors did do something about it and are putting them out of the market. The same is happening in Australia where the factories are all robot production lines not workers. The so called big 3 were too complacent and kept shelving every alternative engine that was invented saying that petrol will be here forever when that was a blatant lie. They have lived with their heads in the sand and now they are paying the price. Cars that do not use petrol should have been on the market years ago if the big 3 had not tried to silence the research. They could not silence it forever.
@gewcew23 (8007)
• United States
19 Nov 08
Perhaps you think that the workers should work for free, what non sense. Where did Lilwonders say that. I do not have a union and I do not work for free. What ever!
@sharra1 (6340)
• Australia
20 Nov 08
Grace I did not say that she said anything of the kind but it makes as much sense as blaming the union workers for a company failing. They would be failing even if the workers were doing it for free. Australia's car factories are 100% robots so no workers to blame and they are failing for the same reason. The people at the top on millions of dollars had their heads in the sand and refused to change with the times. Any company that fails to change to meet market demands will fail no matter how big they are and the car companies should have been building non petrol cars a long time ago.
1 person likes this
• United States
20 Nov 08
No I do not exspect htem to work for free. But either they make concessions or they may all be out of a job. Which is better losing a few benfits or losing your job? It is not a pretty situation and tough choices are going to have to be made on all levels.
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@gewcew23 (8007)
• United States
19 Nov 08
When you buy a car made by one of the big three you pay about a thousand dollar just to pay for the cost of people that do not even work for the company any more. You cannot operate a business paying for people that do not even work for you anymore. Foreign auto companies do not have to worry about. They do not have any legacy benefits they have to pay for. Also as a whole unions make companies unflexable. Companies have to be able to evolve to the changing times, union contracted labor prevents companies from adjusting to this times without a new collective bargaining agreement. This is what happen to great companies like U.S Steel and now is happening to the big three.
@sharra1 (6340)
• Australia
20 Nov 08
Well I do not know what the ones in America are like but I negotiated the enterprise bargaining agreement for my old workplace and it was not inflexible except when it came to paying workers the same rate of pay for the same job. All jobs were classified by 10 levels with 10 being management and 1 being the lowest clerical worker. The EBA set the salaries for all those 10 levels, above that was department heads to CEO and they were contract. If an employer wanted to shift the wage for a job they changed the job and got it reclassified. It was not paid by the person in it but by the skill level of the job. I never heard of one being classified lower, most of the job re- classifications that I heard of were the result of increase in responsibility. The other way to change a job was to change it when someone left. It was hard to classify one lower since most jobs were classified very low anyway. It definitely was not inflexible. We also had restructures and redundancies. I have no idea what legacy workers are, we have nothing like that in our EBA systems. I do know that my employer preferred EBA's to individual contracts.
1 person likes this
• United States
20 Nov 08
Yep I would have to agree with you there.
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@MntlWard (878)
• United States
18 Nov 08
The unions have been around for a long time, and the automakers have been doing fine. The only thing that's different now is that the SUV's aren't selling like they have been.
1 person likes this
• United States
18 Nov 08
Ya that is a point. They should have been making more fuel efficent cars. But they say they are not even completive with the cars because of the cost to make them with union workers. I agree that automakers have been around a while and so have unions. But it is a global market now. Other companies in other countries are now making cars just as good but for a lot less. We american (and people all over the world) love a good deal so we buy the cheaper car because it is a better deal. Americans for the most part do not believe in "buying American" if it means spending more money. We do not for the most part care where a product comes from as long as it a low price. Which would the workers perfer....fewer benefits or a job.
1 person likes this
@MntlWard (878)
• United States
20 Nov 08
Seeing as the auto CEO's all took private jets to DC to claim they're broke, I'm not convinced that the problem comes from the guys who do the work that pays for the private jets.
@anniepa (27955)
• United States
19 Nov 08
This is a tough call and one have mixed feelings about. Although I've been a huge supporter of unions and a union member most of my adult life if I'd have seen this question even a few short years ago I'd have answered "YES" without a moment's hesitation. We've probably all heard stories, if we don't know anyone who works in the auto industry, about people getting paid $40-50/hour for standing and tightening a lug-nut and how if they're asked to help out on something else, no matter how simple, the union won't allow it. I've never denied there are some unions whose demands are a bit extreme no matter how much I believe in the general premise of unions, mostly because I know for a fact that every job I've had would have paid very low wages and probably no benefits if it were not for the union and I still don't feel I was ever "overpaid" by any stretch of the imagination and I worked my butt off for every penny I've ever earned. Getting back to the problems of the Big 3 automakers today, I've been hearing quite a bit about how the unions have made some major concessions recently; some say they haven't gone far enough and others disagree but there has been some progress made in this regard. It's true that many Americans have been buying foreign cars for years now but I really don't think it's all due to price; sadly, in some cases it's seemed that foreign cars are made better, last longer and get better gas mileage than their domestic counterparts. Many of these "foreign" cars are actually made in the U.S., some in union shops and some not. Anyone who has priced a car lately will tell you you'll pay just as much or more for a Honda or Toyota than for a Chevy or Pontiac. I guess what I'm trying to say is that unions may be a contributor to the problems the Big 3 face right now but they're not totally to blame. Those at the top, the CEO's making tens or hundreds of millions in salaries and bonuses are more to blame, in my opinion. I have mixed feelings as to whether we should bail the automakers out or not or how much but I do know this - if the taxpayers' money is going to go to these companies there has to be some pretty sturdy strings attached and it's got to involved sacrifices by all who will benefit from it. If they simply take our money and go on with business as usual I think there will be he11 to pay! Annie
1 person likes this
@anniepa (27955)
• United States
23 Nov 08
That's the big Catch-22. People love to shop at Walmart because they can get things cheaper, which especially in this economy is a huge deal. However, so much of what we buy at Walmart was made in foreign countries at slave wages so the more people buy this stuff the less stuff that will be made in America. I agree completely about the automakers continuing to make the gas guzzlers which now sit on lots unsold, where they're likely to stay for awhile unless they're almost given away. Honda and Toyota have been making quality vehicles that get better mileage and LAST longer for decades and many of them are made in the U.S. many (but not all) of them by union workers. That tells me it's poor management that has contributed the most to the failure of the big 3. Not entirely, but a big part of it. Union busting is something I've been worried about for a long time. I know unions aren't perfect and some are downright rotten and make unreasonable demands. Some companies would treat their workers just as well without a union. Both of these are in the minority, in my opinion. You can't imagine the things the U.S. Postal Service management wanted to do to the people who do the actual work (carriers, clerks, mail handlers) with unions in place! They've gotten away with A LOT as it is which has really caused service to the public to suffer but if anyone reading this has had complaints about their mail service now they can't imagine what it could be like! As it is, they've replaced a lot of career employees with temps who frankly don't give a hoot if the right letter gets to the right mailbox and they've put all the emphasis on speed instead of service even for the veteran employees. The Post Masters and others in middle management get huge bonuses for pushing the craft employees to get their jobs done under budget at any cost. If that happens in a government agency, just think how some in private industry would treat their workers. Annie
@anniepa (27955)
• United States
26 Nov 08
Thanks for the BR! Gee, you're too generous to me, Hon! Annie
• United States
19 Nov 08
I think it is a combination of things. The company continued to make gas guzzlers that were not selling instead of going to more more gas friendly cars. The fact that their workers do cost more. I am not saying they do not earn it because it is hard work. But they do cost more than other countries worker and that cuts into their overhead. It is really hard right now for American companies to compete on a global level. They need to do something to figure out how to fix it. MAYBE if they want to encourage us to buy more american products than they need to raise the import taxes on the foreign countries which will raise the prices and make it more of a level playing field, plus the extra tax could help with the deficit. Who knows if htat would work. It is an idea I been kicking around. Personally I think AMericans would be ticked off because htey want the products as cheaply a possible. That is why Walmart is doing so well in this ecomony.
1 person likes this
• United States
2 Aug 09
When times were good the Auto Companies were quite happy to comply with the Unions demands; if they didn't, the Unions went on strike and the companies lost money. Gradually, the demands of the Unions priced us out of the market because the foreign companies could make as good or better products than the American manufacturer. Now times are tough and the Unions aren't prepared to back off and cut their cloth to suit their purse. I hear all these Union workers whinging about how they can't afford to take a pay cut but then I hear of a Union worker whose job was a sweeper, making $65,000 a year! The "job bank!" What a swindle!! No wonder our cars cost so much. I see so many of these Union workers making six figures, they have their 4000sq ft. houses with $1500+ monthly payments, Skidoos, summer cottages, boats and all sorts of toys but they didn't save anything!! Because I was cheated out of almost everything I owed in 1978, I then put 20% of my paycheck away and today, at the age of 86, I have enjoyed 20 years of retirement with my wife of 65 years, have a nice condo and enough resources that my family will never have to worry when I kick the bucket. Yes, definitely, the Unions are a large part of the predicament this country is in today.