Hiding behind the cloak of religion.

@Pose123 (21635)
Canada
January 8, 2009 9:39am CST
Here in Canada two men have been arrested for polygamy, one is said to have as many as fifty wives. The men are members of a fundamentalist offshoot of the Mormon Church known as The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints, who have a community called "Bountiful" in BC. The polygamous sect have been at odds with the law for more than twenty years, but finally charges have been laid. The men are saying that their religious rights are being violated and this it seems will play a big part in whether or not the men will go to prison or be allowed to return to Bountiful and continue their polygamous ways. How far can this really go? Should people be allowed to break the law and hide behind the cloak of religious freedom?
9 people like this
33 responses
@asgtswife04 (2475)
• United States
8 Jan 09
Well, in the Bible, it says that you shall not commit adultery. Having more than one relationship or marriage at a time is adultery...so, if they are trying to hide behind religious beliefs I don't think it's right what so ever. To truly love someone and live with that person takes so much committment and how could you solely give yourself to fifty people. Your heart is to be given to one person and you are to love them solely. i've always had a problem with people thinking that it's okay to marry more than one person at a time or people who cheat on the one they are married to. Marriage is between ONE man, ONE woman. Not one man and fifty woman. It really irriates me to no end what all is going on in this world we are bringing our children in and up in. God bless
• Canada
8 Jan 09
Well, in the old testament there is also a story of a person who worked seven years to marry the daugher of his employer. He loved this woman. But the father tricked him and gave him the other daughter as a wife. Then he had to work for another 7 years to get to marry his beloved. Do you know this story? I forgot the names of the people who were infolved. But I agree with the rest of your comments that it is wrong to have more than one wife.
• United States
8 Jan 09
i'm not real familar with that story, but if you could tell me where it is in the Bible I would love to read it. I know quite a bit about the Bible, but there are still areas that I may have missed or haven't read yet. I'm always interested in finding new things, so thank you for bringing that to my attention. I still do not agree that it is right for a man or woman to be married to more than one person. I also don't believe in divorce unless there is proof of adultery. that is the only reason in the Bible that is justified to divorce. Everyone has an opinion though and that is just mine. Thanks again and God bless
2 people like this
• United States
9 Jan 09
I have read the story, as well as some other stories in the Bible. Yes, it does go against God. That is not my opinion either. I follow the Bible and am a Godly woman. Man did make it law that you could not have more than one wife, therefore it does go against God. I just didn't know how to word that when I was thrown that question, but seems you got it down to a tee. Thanks and God bless
2 people like this
@suspenseful (40193)
• Canada
8 Jan 09
It amazes me that certain groups can sue Bible believing Christians who have only one spouse because they will not promote immorality, and yet here is this polygamous group that the Human Rights Commission will not touch. The government itself has to press charges. And guess what the Human Rights Commission and their Kangaroo court will get them off, while the real Christians get fined. One should always obey God rather than man. It is not the case of hiding behind the cloak of religious freedom - for Christians there is no freedom in Canada, but doing what God says and God said one man and one woman, not one man and multiple women. Oh if the government decides to say that all Christians have to work at jobs other than those of mercy or necessity on Sunday, and they refuse, would that be a case of hiding behind the cloak of religious freedom?
3 people like this
@suspenseful (40193)
• Canada
9 Jan 09
Those people who took many wives did not obey God. After all, if your parents told you not to stay out after eleven pm when you were fourteen and you decided and all the children at fourteen decided to stay out, it does not mean that the parents said it was all right. The same with if there is polygamy, it is because the people of God in the Old Testament disobeyed God and adapted the conditions of the heathen nations around them. I believe that in the case of the Human Rights Commission that usually if a Christian stands up for his belief against any plaintiff he will lose and the Human Rights Commission pays for the defense of the plaintiff no matter if he wins or loses but supposing the defendant wins, it will not pay for his fees. And since most of the defendants are usually Christian based, that takes away their freedom. So it is a stacked deck. Now if we got rid of the Human Rights Commission things would be fine. After all, we all are human are we not? It should not be some are more human than others.
1 person likes this
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
9 Jan 09
Hi again suspenseful, There are many cases in the old testament of men having more than one wife and not being condemned by God. David was a man of God who had several wives and there was no problem until he had Uriah killed so that he might have his wife. Abraham also had more than one wife as did Jacob, later call Israel. That it may have been practiced by early Christians is also possible because it is mentioned in the new testament that, " A Bishop should be a good man, the husband of one wife". Blessings.
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
9 Jan 09
Hi suspenseful, Thank you for commenting. I have heard since that girls as young as 15 are being forced to marry much older men, and this is the greatest problem in my opinion, the thing is are they going to be able to prove it? I don't agree with you that Christians have no freedom in Canada, I think we all have the same freedom and that is how it should be. If this group is allowed to live this way, what is to stop those of other religions that agree with it from doing the same. Indeed the law would have to treat everyone alike. I believe that men and women are equal and regardless of what happened in Biblical times, they should be treated as equals today. Blessings.
2 people like this
@getnbuy (1312)
• United States
9 Jan 09
Thank you for acknowledging that these men are an off shoot of the Mormon religion. So many times people get mixed up and think that Mormons practice polygamy. Polygamy is a big problem in the western U.S. It is against the law and sometimes they are brought before the courts, but there are so many of them that most states just leave them alone. I believe if it is illegal to practice polygamy, then it should not be allowed. No one should be allowed to break the law just because he says his religion says differently. In the Mormon Church members are told to obey the law of the land. I think everyone should.
2 people like this
@getnbuy (1312)
• United States
10 Jan 09
Not only are the young girls being forced to marry, but think of the children born of these unions. Incest and poor heredity factors are sure to come out. Those children share far to many genes to be healthy. It is not fair to them, either. If you keep inter-marrying in the same town for a number of years there are bound to be genetic defects.
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
9 Jan 09
Hi getnbuy, Thank you for responding and those comments. I know that Mormons are a law abiding people. I think the law has to act in this case because there are stories of girls as young as 15 being forced to marry old men who already have several wives. I hope they are able to prove this because it could break the whole thing wide open. They are now saying that their religious rights are being violated. I think the law has to apply to everyone. Blessings.
@Mirita (2668)
• United States
8 Jan 09
How can a person afford fifty wives? I bet you the government is providing welfare for them. There are so many people using religion to justified their nonsense.
• Canada
9 Jan 09
We don't mind our own business because we have a concious. It is disgusting and it is illegal. How many times have you seen on televsion or read in the paper women trying to escape these kinds of forced religions? How often have you heard about 14 year old girls being forced to marry a much older man who already has 5 other wives against her will? polygamist marriages are not healthy ones. Women and children, more often than not, are physically, mentally, emotionally, economically and sexually abused. It is not a marriage of 50/50, its a marriage where the men have all the say and women are to do what they are told. Now I dont know where you come from, but here in Canada women are just as equal as men in this world. If it were true that the women and children could leave whenever they wanted then I would agree with you 100% that we shouldnt be worrying about other peoples lives. But that isnt the case, its illegal for a reason, and as long as women and children are being abused in these polygamist groups, I will continue to care about what other people do. And so should everyone else.
@Pitgull (1522)
• United States
9 Jan 09
Are the women outraged about what is happening to the men? My issue is about whether or not they receive welfare for being unwed mothers, because legally they are not wives of these men. I find it ridiculous for a woman to subject herself to this kind of treatment, but I believe she has her own rights if that is how she wants to live...on the other hand, it is our issue when children are being subjected to this lifestyle... People should marry when they want to. And I truly cannot believe that a man having "50 wives" would produce any conducive lifestyle for a child. What kind of men does that breed? What kind of women does it produce? What does that reflect about our species? The children and welfare are my concern.
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
10 Jan 09
Hi Mirita, Thank you for responding and I agree we should not be allowed to use religion to break the law. Blessings.
• United States
9 Jan 09
where ever do they get that idea??God made adam one wife from his one rib wonder what man would look like if he had taken all of his ribs????LOL
2 people like this
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
9 Jan 09
Hi dorothyDauphinee, Thank you for responding. In old testament times it was common for men to have several wives at the same time and it was not against the law. There are also countries in the world today where it is common practice. but it is not lawful in Canada and the law has to be for everyone. Blessings.
1 person likes this
• United States
10 Jan 09
then i wont live in a country where this is permited and if the law is meant for everyone then those residing in a country whos law does not permit this such as USA should not practice nor encourage it!
• Bahrain
9 Jan 09
I don't know much about mormons nor do I care about such retarded men, but I'm seeing many of you referring to Islam as an example here, so I'm going to clarify some things. I know that islam does allow up to four wives, but that's NOT the end of the story. Unlike those fundamentalist mormons that are having as many as they want and making them live in whatever conditions they want, etc, there are a LOT of rules the men in Islam have to obey to be allowed more than one wife, and the most important one is having the woman's approval. Even when the girl is the first wife, if she doesn't want the marriage then it is declared invalid, illegal and the man loses his religious right for the marriage. That's right! The woman has the utmost control over whether or whether not allowing her husband to marry others, or even marrying him at all, there is no such thing as "forced marriages" - even though there are some cases which that happen, especially in fundamentalist-like societies like lets say the KSA, both the holy qur'aan and prophet Mohammed have stated very clearly that any marriage in which the woman was forced into is considered invalid (as if it never happened), the man is condoned to be doing adultery and abuse, and both him and whoever else participated in this misleaded conduct will be fiercely punished for it in the afterlife. Many of these jerks might overlook this now, but they're going to end up with a hell of a punishment later on, and it IS punished by the law if caught, by the way. Other than even that, there are OTHER rules as well. Which include, 'after' his first wife agrees for him to marry a second one, he HAVE to give both of them good living conditions, in which they are comfortable and wouldn't be forced to live in poverty. Those that aren't financially able are NOT allowed such marriages, because it will force the wives to live in misery. And to marry a third he has to have the contensity of both the first and second, etc. And on top of that, he HAVE to treat ALL of them with equality and never favor one over the other; if he gives one something he has to do the same for the others, since it would hurt them emotionally if they're neglected and only one of them gets his attention. The heart might fall for one and only one more than the others, but he's not allowed to show such favorism; anything that would hurt the others is not religiously allowed, he have to hide it in and treat them equally. After all of that, the only ones that actually would go through all those headaches are either the rich jerks that simply don't give a damn and all they want is their personal pleasure, or simply just jerks that make their wives lead hard lives and for what? Because they want as many children as possible. There are some men that three, four or even five or six kids aren't enough for them, and want much much more. I call them jerks not because of that, but because such lowlives hardly give their kids the fatherly attention they need and leave ALL the hardwork on the poor mothers that have to do everything while their husband is almost never home. IT's as if they're bringing in more kids just to brag. There are other factors as well, but I hope this is good enough to clarify your obviously misleaded and wrong views about the marriage system in Islam. It is not the system that is at fault, it is the people that misuse it that need a spanking!
2 people like this
• Singapore
10 Jan 09
TenmaMetsuki, I do not think that the people here would just want to merely single the Islamic faith here for no reasons at all. I think everyone and quarters can accept your religion's approval to let a man to have up to 4 wives with the observation of stated conditions and the approval of his order of wife and wives. But, the majority could ever comprehend, agree, understand and come to terms for such incidents to have taken place: Saudi Arabian girl, eight, married off to 58-year-old is denied divorce http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/23/saudi-arabia-human-rights And, that the authorities can actually reject the petition for a divorce or annulment of such a marriage. Do you think that such incidents can be acceptable by the people who are outside of your faith? How about you? How would you feel if you are the mother here? Would you not want to put a stop to it and prevent another of such to happen again? If your answer is yes, then, how in the world are you able to that when the majority at your quarter deems fit and right to do so? Isn't this evident that the system is at fault here?
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
9 Jan 09
Hi TenmaMetsuki, Thank you for responding to this discussion and for the information on Islam in regard to marriage laws. I'm always interested in learning something new. It is very easy to get misinformation, but often hard to get the truth. I knew that a Muslim man could have more than one wife, but that is as much as I knew. This discussion is meant to be about something entirely different. This group here in Canada are said to be forcing young women to marry much older men who often have several other wives. Polygamy is not lawful in Canada but these men are saying that their religious rights are being violated because their religion allows them to have more than one wife. There are many Muslims in Canada and I have never heard that there was ever a problem with one of them insisting that they be allowed to break the law in that respect. I am hoping that justice will prevail in this situation because if one group is allowed to break the law in the name of religious freedom, others must have the same right. My main concern however, is for the young women who are being forced into a marriage they do not want. Blessings.
2 people like this
• Bahrain
9 Jan 09
And I'm always ready to correct the misfigured interpretation of Islams others have^^. Well, if they're trying to use religion as an excuse to have as many wives as they want, then why not go around their religion just like they are going around the law, using the fact that those young girls are being 'forced' and are not actually willing for it as an excuse to make them abide by the law? Forcing them to marry means they're being forced to have s-exual relations with these old goats, thus can be considered as rap-e and possibly minor abuse. Lawyers are very famous for always going round and round to make even the guilty innocent, and the innocent guilty, depending on which side they're on. So why not use these creative ways of theirs to put these folks under the strings of the law? There are always ways, if only one is willing. P.S: please excuse those unnecessary "-" marks, I'm still 17 so the 'mature content prohibition' is something I can't go around and is quite frustrating -w-
1 person likes this
• India
9 Jan 09
No definitely not. Till a person lives off a society and in a nation, whatever he or she does has to have an implication on the entire society and the nation at large. We all speak of fundamental rights, how many of us are aware of our fundamental duties? Each religion has its own rules and regulation but for a plural society to function peacefully, there should be general guidelines which everybody should abide by. That is the reason we all have civil laws apart from religious laws. It should be everybody's fundamental duty of each one of us, to abide by uniform civil laws in the best interest of the nation. Pandering to such irresponsible demands will only harm society and fragment the nation.
2 people like this
• India
16 Jan 09
Thnx for the BR
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
9 Jan 09
Hi sudiptacallingu, Thank you for commenting and we agree, the law must be for everyone, and no one should be above it. Equal rights is one thing but special rights is another. Blessings.
• United States
10 Jan 09
Hi- as a Minister and Christian the answer is quite simple..NO!! What they are attesting to is just that..RELIGION. A walk with God and perhaps a RIGHT to note HIM as a foundation to a decision is having SALVATION not religion. When and IF you know the Lord certainly you wouldn't act in such a manner that denounces all that is right and good. Even in Genesis, the Garden of Eden, God made EVE for ADAM-- not EVE and 49 of her sisters! All who say "Lord, Lord" will not enter in. Someone's word just isn't worth what it used to be. But we can only pray for those who need it and hopefully lead them to truth. If you take spirituality out of the entire situation - it doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to figure out that this is both immoral and a little one sided- all for the man! I'd say they were suffering from incredibly blown out ego issues and need a reality check and to spend a LOT more time on their knees praying instead of on their backs with a harem! May God bless you and fill you with wisdom to know the truth for yourself.
2 people like this
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
10 Jan 09
Hi thanks2jesus4ever, Thank you for responding and I agree no one is above the law. I'm not against freedom of religion, but it must not be used as an excuse to break the law. My main concern is for the children and young people who are growing up in this situation. Blessings.
@DonnaLawson (4032)
• United States
9 Jan 09
I would say that they need to be left alone, especially if they can find 50 women dumb enough to live this way and to put up with a man like that.. The only problem with that is some of the "so-called" wives are too young to be in this situation.. I have seen the reports of some off these ignorant men who prey off the ignorance of some women and in turn are no different than child molesters or rapists.. I don't believe that even if forced I would ever give into this type of "man" and I use that word loosly.. It isn't a real man, when he takes advantage of people, especially young people..
2 people like this
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
9 Jan 09
Hi DonnaLawson, Thank you for commenting and we agree, except that I don't think that they should be left alone because of the young people. There are reports of girls as young as fifteen being forced to marry old men who already have several wives. This sort of thing has to be stopped and the law must apply to everyone. Blessings.
1 person likes this
• United States
9 Jan 09
I am in total agreement with you.. If not for the young, then let them be, but if they are found to be messing with any underage child, they should be prosecuted.. The part about leaving them alone, pertains only to the stupid adults who would live in this manner..
@celticeagle (159058)
• Boise, Idaho
9 Jan 09
Bizarre isn't it? Churches have always been seperated from civil law all down through the ages. They seem to hold some special sanctity under god. But, to me,God doesn't even enter into it. It is politics and demented power struggle almost. To me it is like the amount of legal respect that is given to outlaws in this world. First,they are innocent until proven guilty, then they are able to congest the judicial systems with their appeals just for time. The people of Bountiful can have a say in whether they go back there are not. I guess it ends up being what do the people in the area want? Are they concervative or liberal? What do they want in their area? Are they of the same believe or?? It will go as far as they let it. If someone steps forward and takes a stand then maybe something will be done. But if all stay silent- I doubt anything will happen.
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
9 Jan 09
Hi celticealge, Thank you for responding and yes it is bizarre. I hope that something is done this time, no one should be above the law.
@celticeagle (159058)
• Boise, Idaho
9 Jan 09
I agree. Someone in that area has to say something though. I hope so too.
@baileycows (3665)
• United States
9 Jan 09
Well first and foremost I don't think that any religion should defy the laws of the land. I am a Christian and I know that if I break mans law then God is not happy. If we were all able to hide behind the cloak of religion we could then invent new relgions to do whatever we like. I do not feel that this is proper. I feel no matter what relgion it is they should follow the laws of the land. If they don't like them move where you can do it.
2 people like this
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
9 Jan 09
Hi baileycows, Thank you for your opinion and we agree on this, the law has to be for everyone.
1 person likes this
@GADHISUNU (2162)
• India
8 Jan 09
As far as I know Mormons are a polygamous sect within the orthodox church. Aren't they? If Canadian Government is able to enforce its laws- I do not know what freedoms are guaranteed by the Canadian constitution to individuals in matters of faith, but if Canada is declared a secular democratic republic with any minorities, given guarantees for practicing their faith as in India, then Courts will haveacquit these two persons and they are not likely to land in prison. But this can begin a pernicious trend for those wanting to practice polygamy, to "convert" to the Mormon Church, unless of course they are a closed sect, and there is no possibility of entering their religion through conversion or marriage like in Parsis in India or the Jews of Israel. In India esp. in the film land people change their religion to Islam to practice polygamy. But according to Indian law, if there is no complaint from the wives and the person is not a Government servant there is no way of prosecuting the errant citizen. Likewise I feel this should be left to the individual family to deal with.
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
10 Jan 09
Hi GADHISUNU, Thank you for your comments. First of all this group are not members of the official Mormon church, who are law abiding citizens, rather they are an offshoot of that church. Polygamy is against the law in Canada where this sect have sit up their own community and don't welcome outsiders. There are reports that young women are being forced to marry old men who already have several wives and this sort of thing is not allowed in our country. I know that some countries allow polygamy and I guess it depends on the culture, but I believe everyone should have to obey the law. Blessings.
@GADHISUNU (2162)
• India
10 Jan 09
O-o Pose, yeah, Now I remember, this is some hoodwinking, the Law. Oh! God how did I miss it! There is no condoning this. Yeah, I now remember reading about this strange community in The Economist or Newsweek. Now, everything falls in place. I am not supporting that the idea of polygamy was right or anything. But in history from Old Testament times or for that matter even in Hinduism polygamy was very much in vogue. In fact polygamy was discouraged only after the appearance of Ramayana where God incarnated as Man and underwent a lot of suffering to set the ideal of what the RIGHT path is! What the Ideal for Mankind should be. That is why The Ramayana is considered a very holy book and will be practically kept in every Hindu's home. As on date only Islam has official polygamy,though there are quite strong conditionalities for its practice. First and foremost even in Islam, it is not a compulsion that everyone must practice polygamy.It is only a choice given. Many of my Muslim friends have just one wife and they live like any one of us. Thanks for the response! I could correct myself.
@srijshm (1165)
• India
8 Jan 09
Are the guilty only men in this case? Did the wives not know about about women. Surely these polygamist couldn't have set up 50 different homes. here is a interesting study: A very recent study conducted in UK has shown that men practicing polymamy had lived for more years than law abiding men. This reiligious sect may have strong scientific roots.(LOL)
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
9 Jan 09
Hi srijshm, Thank you for commenting. This group who are not Mormons, by the way, but an offshoot of the Mormon church, have their own little community where outsiders are not welcome. I think that the real problem is that girls as young as fifteen are being forced to marry old men who already have several wives. I also don't think that it is a good environment in which to raise children. I'm all for freedom of religion, but not for special rights for anyone. Blessings.
1 person likes this
• Bahrain
9 Jan 09
you need to understand, that the women in the mormon religion have absolutely zero choice what they do, it's like they'd curse the day they were born when they were born females. The men have absolute unjustifiable power over everyone else and anyone who even dares to speak back is heavily punished for it, so it's not that they don't know or a part of this, it's that they have no choice
1 person likes this
• India
9 Jan 09
never , the religions are just a mere superstition men should go for the right way and that is by following law
2 people like this
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
9 Jan 09
Hi rijuking, I am not opposed to freedom of religion, everyone has a right to their opinion, but no one should be able to break the law and get away with it because their religions says it's okay. The law is for everyone. Blessings.
1 person likes this
• Canada
9 Jan 09
They shouldn't bring religion in their sins. In no relaigion it says that you can have 50 wives. In Islam, it says if you cannot justify with your present wife then you must not marry another one. Religion asks for justification & these sick people they destroy lives in the name of religion. Holy cow!!!!!!!!!
2 people like this
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
9 Jan 09
Hi naziashajid, Thank you for responding and you are right, what is happening there is wrong. I hope they are stopped this time. Blessings.
• India
9 Jan 09
I wonder how so many women can be foolish enough to marry one man!! And I wonder how that one man can handle so many wives. Polygamy is quite an accepted way of life in some cultures, though with the way the economy is right now, I wonder how people can afford it. Cheers and happy Mylotting
2 people like this
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
9 Jan 09
Hi positiveminded, Thank you for responding and while I know it is common in some cultures, it is not lawful here and the law should be for everyone. Blessings.
@barehugs (8973)
• Canada
9 Jan 09
ok we have, equal rights, religious freedom, separation of church and state, How many more contradicting laws law apply to this case. (One needs to be a lawyer to respond to this Post)On what charge were they arrested? Was it Child Molesting, (for marrying an under age girl?)When both bride and groom are Mormons, could a child molesting charge apply? If religion is really free, can these men be arrested under these circumstances?
2 people like this
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
9 Jan 09
Hi barehugs, Thanks for responding and I think that this may be a very interesting case. I have heard that girls as young as 15 are being forced to marry middle aged and even older men. I don't know if they will be able to to prove this because it may be difficult to get people to testify. The point is if the sect is allowed to practice Polygamy, the law will have to allow Muslims and others who agree with polygamy to do the same. Religious freedom means that all religions, and not just Christian sects have to be treated the same. I am very proud of the religious freedom we have in Canada and I hope this is not going to open a can of worms. Blessings.
1 person likes this
@Fortunata (1135)
• United States
9 Jan 09
What is up with some men that think it's 'fun' to have a lot of wives???? How do they afford it? What do they do about jealousy?? I agree that they hide behind religion to have their 'fun', if that's what they think it is. Sounds like a big headache to me, lol!
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
9 Jan 09
Hi Fortunata, Thanks for responding, A BIG HEADACHE. Blessings.
• India
9 Jan 09
50 wives? Oh wow a lucky guy. I always had a fantasy tohave a 1000 wives. Alas! i have but one. Honestly. What is wrong if tehguy has 50 wives and none of them have a complaint against him? problem arises when one of the wives has a complaint aginst himfor marrying someone else. As along as they are all happy together, the law shoudlnto interfere intheir happiness. They are doing no harm to anyone sowhat is the problem?
2 people like this
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
9 Jan 09
Hi mercuryman3a, Thank you for commenting and the problem is that it is reported that this sect is forcing girls as young as 15 to marry old men who already have several wives. I'm not sure if they are going to be able to prove this, but at least one young women escaped and told her story. I'm not opposed to freedom of religion, but I think everyone has to obey the law of the country where they are living. Blessings.
• United States
9 Jan 09
Cool. I want my own cult. Then I can do all kinds of selfish things to get my needs met. And call it my religion.
2 people like this
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
9 Jan 09
Hi actualfactual, Thank you for responding, you could probably do just that if you wanted to, it's been happening. Seriously there are problems with this sect. Blessings.