Filipinos Are Lazy - That's Why They Are Poor!

Philippines
June 24, 2008 7:26pm CST
Last night I was talking to one of my Australian friends who has lived in the Philippines for a while. during the discussion he mentioned to me that Filipinos are poor for no other reason than they are lazy. He also stated a verse from the Bible as further proof that this was the reason, by saying the Bible says "A slack hand causes poverty." If there are any Filipinos on line, what do you think about his comments? (By the way, I do not happen to agree with him, so please do not be angry with me!) Tim
8 people like this
61 responses
@kush86 (109)
• United States
25 Jun 08
I have a friend in the Philippines, He is making a great living for himself online. Not all Filipinos are lazy. You can go into any country and find somebody that is lazy. Your friend need to go to more countries and realize that there is poor people in every country, and there is lazy people in every country.
1 person likes this
• Philippines
25 Jun 08
You are very right kush. We share the same opinion.
1 person likes this
@kush86 (109)
• United States
25 Jun 08
WATARIKENJI; I think everybody would agree unless their dumb or one of those lazy people. MillionaireAnonymous; That sounds great. Your students must be great to work with.
1 person likes this
• Philippines
25 Jun 08
They really inspire me and make my stay here worthwhile. Not only are they students, but some of them have become some of my best friends and the wonderful thing is that we now have a really great team of people helping each other. Tim
1 person likes this
• Philippines
26 Jun 08
There are lazy people anywhere in the world. It is true, it's the number one cause of poverty. I can also observe this trait among our fellow Pinoys but I look up to those who are hardworking. This is something that is in me. Hard work. And because I work hard, I do not experience poverty. I think another factor is corruption. If only the budget of the government is being used for where it is intended, the country would prosper and many will have jobs.
1 person likes this
• Philippines
26 Jun 08
Oh how true, Hard work is indeed a good step forward in the race to abundance, but so much more is needed. As a business man here, it is painful to pay taxes as I know that most of it won't actually go where it is intended. How different would the country look if all the money was spend correctly? Tim
@rsa101 (13344)
• Philippines
26 Jun 08
I would have to agree with you there. There are lazy people everywhere and it should not be concentrated to one place. What causes our poverty is of several factors not only laziness..
@sid556 (31031)
• United States
25 Jun 08
I am not filipino but I have heard that stupid people and lazy people are poor. I am not stupid and I am far from lazy but alas, I am also far from being even comfortable financially. Of course lazy people are apt to be poor but that does not in any way mean that all people that are poor are that way because of laziness. Your friend was being silly to generalize an entire group of people...I'm sure that when he was there that he encountered some lazy people as he would anywhere in the world.
1 person likes this
• Philippines
26 Jun 08
This raises a very good point. If hard work has little relation to wealth, what is the way for hard working people to become wealthy? Tim
1 person likes this
@sid556 (31031)
• United States
26 Jun 08
If I knew...I'd be there by now. I just work hard and set priorities and budget the best I can and I may never be rich but I have raised my children and provided for them on my own. More education would most definitly help but then you need money for that. In my case, choices that I made when young such as not furthering my education, bad marriage and children are reasons why I financially never got ahead. I don't regret those choices. I've learned so much and my children, while it may have been difficult to raise them on my own have added more richness to my life than any amount of money ever could. Having extra money would be nice and not having to struggle would too I think but then again, my children and I are the people we are because of the times we've struggled through and survived.I can't say honestly that I would not love to make more money and get ahead....that'd be a lie but I can tell you that it's not the entire answer to having a fullfilling, rich and worthwhile life. I guess, I am always looking for ways to improve our situation so that it isn't such a juggling act to get by each month but the lack of money does not interfere with me seeing how much I do have and also how far i've come over time.
@checapricorn (16076)
• United States
25 Jun 08
Hi there Tim, Please tell to your friend to be open-minded...That is not only an issue in one County..I am a Filipino and I have known 95% of my relatives and friends who are working hard for their lives and to survive and I'd like to say that those 5% are retired and just enjoying life with the fruit of their labor!... I agree that there are also people who are lazy but hello even here in USA, we can find people begging since they are also lazy much more in Australia! In fact, we all know that Filipinos are hired easily anywhere in the globe because of their perseverance, dedication to their work and hardworking! He has to read news and stop judging people!
1 person likes this
• Philippines
26 Jun 08
i have another friend who is from New Zealand and he is presently working in Dubai. He is a project manager there and works only with Filipinos. He says that not only do they work hard, but they also keep him sane. The ability to not only work hard, but with the excellent English they have and good education make it a pleasure to work with them in contrast to his Arab employees who he finds really rude. He is actually arriving back in Manila next month for his holidays and I believe to recruit more workers. Tim
• United States
26 Jun 08
wow! That's great! I miss Philippines..LOL! Enjoy!
@maquisa (316)
• Philippines
25 Jun 08
im a pure blooded Filipina and i really dis agree about what you think about us filipino! I have a degree and just don't want to leave my country for the sake of my country men, and i don't want to become a slave of other race! and you should be thankful because you've been in a rich family! i myself also poor but i strive hard to become somebody.We filipinos are not lazy we just want our lives to be happy.And if someone thinks filipino are lazy then why do you think lots of filipinos abroad are famous?and why they prefer filipino workers to work abroad because they know that we just don't work for money but also with loyalty and giving our heart to it!Filipinos doesn't deserve to be called LAZY!
• Philippines
25 Jun 08
Hi There Maquisa, Just to remind you that it was not my comment, but my Australian friends comment. also my family are not rich. I grew up in a very middle class family. Actually my father left us when I was 4 years old and my mother struggled to raise 4 kids by herself. Also in business I have been completely bankrupt twice in my life. The 2nd time was in Manila when my English business partner ran off with all my money. I only had 1,500 pesos left in the whole world and through very hard work I was able to get out of my troubles and get back on my feet. I had a lot of really wonderful Filipinos helping my survive in those days and i will always be grateful to those people. When I look at myself and a Filipino, I don't see an Englishman and a Filipino; I just see two people standing side by side trying to both reach their objectives. I actually don't care where anyone comes from. Be abundant. Tim
@piknik (43)
• Philippines
27 Jun 08
hi Tim! i'm not agree with your friend's opinion regarding us Filipinos.. Maybe there are some or few but not all, but most Filipinos works hard for a living. Maybe we are not as workaholics as other country is because simply we love to spent more time with our family...which is most important to us..
@misty99 (736)
25 Jun 08
I have read all the response,must admit I was very angry also when I see your thread title.Everything has been said,just want to share this email (unfortunately i'm not yet entitled to copy and paste-hope i can send it as message,please check!),it's an article (Imagine a world without Filipinos)of Arab News dated June 16,2008.Part of the article is a story of a certain Mr. Mohd.Al Maghrabi,handicap,owner of a flower and gift shop in Jeddah.He was forced to close the shop because his Filipino workers decided to return home.He flew to Manila just to hire two Filipino workers,he has tried other nationality but nothing can compare Filipino workers.Mr.Maghrabi's words are ".....I wonder what our life would be without them." Wish you could explain this to your Australian friend.
1 person likes this
• Philippines
26 Jun 08
Oh how brilliant is that? How proud must they feel? It is really great to hear comments like that about anyone. I like that so much. Thank you for sharing that. Tim
@jerrly (74)
• China
25 Jun 08
I worked in Singapore for the last seven years and every Filipino that I have met are very hardworking. Working hard to support their families... Working hard to show that they are responsible... Filipinos are well known as hardworking, hospitable, friendly, and helpful. So I guess this is a case to case basis. I must guess that your friend met Filipinos who are not doing anything and perhaps just waiting for nothing just like "Juan tamad!" Honestly saying, Filipinos are not lazy, because I am not! And in fairness --- our English teachers are all Filipinas and they are very hardworking and responsible nough to do their jobs! For me it is a matter of choice if you wanna be called Lazy... But we must always remember "Don't judge the book by its cover."
• Philippines
26 Jun 08
All success starts with believing that you can do it. Believing that you can do it starts with having a high opinion off yourself. I am very happy to see how many people here have a high opinion of themselves, their fellow man and their country. I hope that we can put this to good use and create success for us all. That's just my opinion of course. Tim
@fretzie (13)
• Philippines
25 Jun 08
i don't agree about his statement, so not at all.it's so unfortunate for our friend to be surrounded with Filipinos who are less fortunate or may be unlucky to be in a job they wanted to have because of less opportunity to work with. Or maybe the qualifications posted were so high. i hope you will not disagree of my saying that all countries were facing crisis, so it's so unfair to say that Filipinos are poor. I will cite examples, why are so many foreigners flocking in our countries, is not because they cannot take it anymore living in their country because of expensive basic livings in there? or is it not because only less opportunities offer in their country? So i can say, in every nation, we face different struggles. Oh by the way, I learned that where there is poverty and crisis, there is the most presence of God...And from that I believe it makes us more trusting Jesus day by day. Thank you
1 person likes this
• Philippines
25 Jun 08
From my point of view I arrived in Manila in 1998 to help with the celebrations for The Centennial Celebrations in Clark and I decided to stay here for a number of reasons. I agree that there are lots of opportunities in this country and in business The Philippines has been very kind to me, but the biggest reason I stayed here initially was because the people were so nice to me, unlike in England where everyone was so rude. Now my reasons for staying here are very different; 1) I have a son here and 2) I make a difference here. I have been here so long now that I couldn't bear the thought of actually going back to England. Despite the problems here i actually love being here with you all even though I am a guest. Tim
@fatima07 (169)
• Philippines
25 Jun 08
I beg to disagree about your Australian friend's opinion about we Filipinos. I am a pure Filipino If you don't know and it's hurt to tell us that we are lazy. Why did he judge us immediately? Did he think the true reason why we are consider a poor country. If your friend don't know yet about a big symptoms of our country in corruptions that's why the number of poor filipinos increase. Many Filipinos (actually millions) go abroad to work and to send moneys for their families.I know one day Philippines will become one of the rich country AGAIN like before because NOT ALL THE FILIPINOS ARE LAZY.
• Philippines
25 Jun 08
I am sure it must be painful to hear negative comments about your own country for other people especially foreigners who don't really understand the social problems here. I think that a lot of Filipinos have lots faith in their government to help solve the problems in the country and they see no way out. One corrupt government seems to replace another and so far I have seen 3 governments in the country since I arrived. Do you think there is anything that can be done to improve the perceived image of the country to others? Tim
@pinkista (893)
• Philippines
25 Jun 08
This topic catch my attention since it's about Filipinos. And I'm one of them you're talking about although I'm still student. Anyways, I can say there are things that makes people become lazy. But not only of Filipinos are lazy. Just like other said, there are Filipinos who work abroad just to earn money, they work hard to send money to their loved ones & family in the Philippines. It's just because of the economy issue, just like jobs. There are opportunities here in Philippines but not everyone who seeks job is qualified it's because of education background and experience as well. If there are jobs open to every Filipinos, there's a possible that the poverty will solved.
1 person likes this
• Philippines
25 Jun 08
Hi there Pinkista, Thanks for your comments. I sometimes wonder if having a job is why we are poor.do you think if the world promoted self-employment and creativity as the answer rather than employment, we would earn more? My experience is that people who work for themselves (especially immigrants to other countries) obtain more results. It saddens me to know people who have worked for 20 years and have nothing in the bank (and I do know some) as a result of working in a job. What do you think? Tim
@marababe (2514)
• Philippines
25 Jun 08
Okay I was just about to take a break here today when I caught glimpse of this discussion. I live in the Philippines and I am a Filipino. That friend of yours might not have been to other countries for saying that about Filipinos. Everybody, every country, every one has a lazy bone in their body it's not just Filipinos and didn't your friend know that most employers prefer Filipino employees cos they work hard, patient and respectful? Although I quite agree with him in some way, there really are people here who blames their being poor for not wanting to work. Absurd thought. I mean, they can get a lot of work or even sidelines which of course is legal just to earn money if they really want to. I don't know how those people think but Filipinos in general are hard working people.
• Philippines
25 Jun 08
I actually really empathize with the people here in the Philippines. I know people that wake up at 5am to take their kids to school and then go to work and take a jeepney home arriving around 11pm just to start all over again. Some of the people here are some of the hardest working I have ever known. Thanks for your comments. Tim
@trinale (1493)
• United States
25 Jun 08
Hi MillionaireAnonymous. Exactly where does your friend live and what does he do in the Phillipines? I lived in the Philippines for 3 years (Angeles City) and Australia for 2 years (Woomera) and would love to hear what his decision is based on. Based on my personal experience, he is definitely way off the mark!! Cheers Mate, Ed
1 person likes this
• Philippines
25 Jun 08
Hi Ed, Actually he lives in La Union and supports his girlfriend and her family so maybe there are some domestics going on! He has been based in Makati for about 6 years and had an employment agency here and had a lot of problems getting staff to stay in jobs etc. Maybe this is where his "anger" comes from. glad you enjoyed your stay here. I am having a wonderful time. I just finished an expo today at megatrade hall in Sm and i think I am the only foreigner there so it would seem the Filipinos are hard at work. Made lots of great contacts there today. Tim
• Philippines
2 Jul 08
I totally agree that laziness is one of the main reasons for poverty in the Philippines. In fact, observations from foreigners about our culture should be taken seriously because of the objectivity that comes often with their opinions. I disagree that corruption is the root of poverty. Maybe it is a contributor, but if you make a pareto chart of the factors that contribute to poverty, overpopulation would be on top, followed by the Filipinos' inherent laziness. Corruption is present in every society and in fact is a common denominator wherever you go, but what differentiates a "genuine" industrialized nation from a developing one is the entrepreneurial spirit of the people therein. Filipinos in general lack the entrepreneurial flair. For example, most students, if asked why they study, would say that they would like to land a good job either in the Philippines or abroad. Rarely would one encounter a student who would answer that he/she would like to put up a business empire in the future. In other words, the Filipino culture trains its people to be mere employees- slaves of mulitinationals/ capitalists, instead of being industrialists or magnates. Blaming the government for poverty is the lamest, most overused scapegoat a person could ever have. It just shows the parasitic nature of a person, to simply rely on the government for progress.
• Philippines
3 Jul 08
Hi There, Please tell me that you are Filipino! This was exactly the point I was trying to make when i started this discussion and thank you so much for talking about these points. I have been accused of being racist (which I am not) and out of line for making the comments the way I did, which maybe justified, but this was what i was trying to stimulate. I think it is imperative that in order to help fix a problem awareness must be made. The opinions of others is critical especially when The Philippines is now a global country more than ever. I do not however think that this is a problem that is only happening here, but I think it is worldwide, but being in The Philippines I want to see this country do well. It shocks me how unenthusiastic some people are about improving their lives and i really do not understand the resistance to it. It is our right to be a success and I hope I can help in my own way here. Thank you so much. Tim
@whilyn (75)
• Philippines
3 Jul 08
Laziness is not the MAIN reason why Filipinos are poor. Since you have included in your comment OBSERVATIONS from foreigners, I think you should publish here WHO and HOW reputable they are to make such an observation. I am a Filipino. I am not poor but not at all well-off. I work for a foreign owned company who pays me LESS THAN my counterparts abroad but more than what MY GOVERNMENT asked them to. Filipinos are generally SOLD for cheap LABOR. Cost of living is affected by factors that is globally influenced. When my expenses increases but my income does not - I am in a quicksand! Unemployment rate in the Philippines is alarmingly high. People are generally considered unemployed when they are not employed and they are looking for employment. Goes to say, that there is a big number of FILIPINOS looking for a job. The government is not an overused excuse. To say that it is an excuse is not right as well. They regulate most of the industries. Companies remit 32% of their income to the GOVERNMENT. I give them 20% of my income every year. I would suggest you enroll yourself to economics 101 again. Then try to understand how important the governments role to the economy is. These are all OPINIONS and SUGGESTIONS, of course. I truly appreciate reading your opinion too.
• Philippines
3 Jul 08
Whilyn, you tell me you are employed? So there you are, a perfect example of my point. Why did you not opt to be an entrepreneur? That is what we Filipinos lack as a whole- innovation and business sense. We would rather take a easy path of being employed by some multinational company which pays us less than our foreign counterparts, than think about putting up our own business empire and be capitalists in our own right. You should not feel bad about being paid less than foreign counterparts because the cost of living in this country is a lot lower than elsewhere. YOU go back to economics 101. I'm also sick of the argument that laziness is present elsewhere, not all Filipinos are lazy...etc... I'm talking about our culture in general. Filipinos as a WHOLE do NOT have business sense and are too lazy to venture into entrepreneurial undertakings. If you still need data for that, you must have been blind and deaf for most of your life.
• Japan
26 Jun 08
Tim, i hate ur friend! I am a filipina, a college graduate in manila. I've been working here in japan for almost five years. I left my two kids in the philippines just to earn more money so i can give them a good education, and a comfortable life. There are lots of filipinos here in japan, and i am proud to say that japanese businessmen likes filipino workers because we work so hard, we are responsible and educated. If u visit japan, u can find filipinos everywhere. We filipino, especially overseas workers sacrificed a lot just to earn more for our family. And it's really unfair to hear that we are poor because we are lazy...........there are lots of reasons why filipinos are poor, not just because of laziness. There are also lazy people around the world.
• Philippines
27 Jun 08
I understand your sentiments. How committed you are to do this for your family. For my part I know the pain of not seeing your family. In the last 15 years I have only seen them twice. It is hard and yet when we talk we know we love each other and that we are there for each other. I think it is so sad to see families split because of money or the lack off. I have friends who are in similar situations to you and both of them now have broken marriages because they wanted to make their lives better. I hope I can help in my own way by bringing some solutions to the people who know me. How nice it would be if we could all enjoy life the way it should be enjoyed. Tim
• Japan
27 Jun 08
Tim, I appreciate ur good impression to filipinos. When I read the title of ur discussion, it really caught my attention. And i can't afford to respond to that discussion. I also heard from my sister Toni Nakama that u are a nice person. I hope u can meet her personally when she gets home there next month. God bless u!
• Philippines
30 Jun 08
Hi there, Good to hear from you also. Yes we are talking offline and it would be good to meet up. Thanks for the nice comments. Tim
• United States
25 Jun 08
I guess from my experience with Filipinos, I would disagree. I am stateside, and those whom I know here are quite industrious and hard-working. Lazy people, as aforementioned, are all over, and hardly seem to come from one nation or people. :)
• Philippines
25 Jun 08
Hi There! I love that this forum gets comments from all over the world and its great to hear feedback from different walks of life. I was talking to the mom of my son last night about this comment my friend made and she said that in general Filipinos don't really focus on creating wealth and that they are just happy being with their families. Would you guys agree with this? Tim
• Philippines
25 Jun 08
Yup, that's us. Faith in God is our wealth.
1 person likes this
• United States
27 Jun 08
A lot depends on the individual. While many of the Filipinos that I know seem to be fiercely loyal to their families, I know of at least one instance where that was not the case. People are people and vary person to person and are really hard to classify as nationals or a race in one fashion or another. I don't think you can say that all Filipinos are interested in family any more than you could so that no Filipino is interested in the accumulation of wealth. Individuals are individuals, wired a certain way somewhat by nature as well as by nurture.
@WATARIKENJI (1534)
• Philippines
25 Jun 08
Laziness is not exclusive to Filipinos. It is a trait shared by many races in the world. If Filipinos are lazy, there would be no overseas Filipinos that send their earnings to the country amounting to billions of pesos. Those Filipinos overseas are and the ones working here are the offsprings of generations of strong and hardy Filipinos that endured all kinds of hardships. So, who is lazy anyway?
• Philippines
25 Jun 08
Too true! I live and work in Manila and have done so for over 10 years. I am the only person in my office who is not Filipino and without them, my office would be nothing. They work so hard sometimes and I can't believe the effort they go to. Thanks for joining the team. Tim
• Philippines
25 Jun 08
Hope you can meet the team when you get back Toni! They would love to hear your success stories. I know you would inspire them by the things that you are doing. Tim
• Philippines
26 Jun 08
Success is not just about money or career. success is a number of things which includes relationships. Success as a mother is part of wealth and that is indeed a great thing to share to other people. There is a book there - "How I successfully raised my children" or "the idiots guide to raising children" Can I have a copy! Ha Ha Tim
• Philippines
1 Aug 08
It is so easy to comment,judge,and generalize. I am a Filipino, and I am hardworking,I have tried working abroad and I would say I am not lazy but still I am not rich. I have tried working,and now I have a small business of my own, sufficing my family's needs. Judging is one of the easiest thing any man can do.You foreigners come to the Philippines for no reason other than to get and abuse cheap labor. In other countries,workers get paid as much as $4 per hour.(take note per hour). Filipino's basic salary is like around (around $8 or Php 360 for 8 hours of work, thats about $1 per hour.You spend half of it for trasportation and food.Do you think if you would be working being paid with the same rate as with us Filipinos you will not become poor? Some Filipinos became rich because they worked abroad,and get better payment for hardwork.Infact,Filipinos are known worldwide to be hardworkers and industrious. I challenge you foreigners,to work in the Philippines and get a minimum wage.Then tell me if you can afford to be lazy. Lazyness is very expensive here,everyone needs to work,and millions of us have to compete with a million competitors. Just try to become a Filipino worker for a month,for you to understand. Filipinos are very patient too you know...
• Philippines
1 Aug 08
You are right - it is so easy to judge. You have no idea why I came to the Philippines, where I go my money from, how much I earn, how much I have lost or had stolen and what I do here. You have no idea of the financial risks I have personally taken to get out of my debt. You have no idea how much I pay my staff and you have no idea about any of the reasons that most foreigners come here. So I forgive you as you do not know. to everyone else sorry if I havn't been here for a while I have been working on other projects. Thanks for all of your very interesting comments. Tim
• Philippines
2 Aug 08
Better tell that to your friend. You're the expert. By the way, are you the one who said it or your friend? I understand your feelings, that's how Filipinos felt about it too. I have no idea right, but i do know investing and working is somewhat two different things. You may have had invested and lost, but it still doesn't justify being in the situation. Your staff are definitely fortunate to have someone like you, and they are probably earning more than what average Filipino workers earn,I really don't have any idea. As we,do not want to be judged as lazy...of course no one wants to be judged as abusers. So I will say...You're forgiven.
@underdogtoo (9606)
• Philippines
25 Jun 08
A lot of people think Filipinos are lazy and I think they are lazy until they get out of their country; then they work like crazy and make lots of money to send home to loved ones who are too lazy to work for themselves. I remember a presidential candidate who was very intelligent and was considered some kind of genius and he said, "The Philippines is poor because Filipinos are lazy. Filipinos are lazy because the sun is so hot. If elected president I will put a plastic dome over the Philippines and air-condition the country." One in the audience raised his hand and said, "If that should happen Mr. President, how can we go abroad?" to which the candidate answered, "That, is a stupid question."
• Philippines
26 Jun 08
Hi there. You really made me smile. It would indeed be nice if the whole country was air-conditioned! Tim
1 person likes this
• Philippines
26 Jun 08
Btw, I'm Filipino. Cheers!!
@neildc (16904)
• Philippines
25 Jun 08
Hi millionaire. Your friend probably been drunk. Or might be too lazy to think more before he said that qoute, Filipinos are poor for no other reason than they are lazy Truly, there are lots of poor Filipinos here. And sad to say that I am one of them. But I am a regular employee of the government. I come here, a private company that is in courier services, right after my work in the government. While here, as my sideline work, I spend some times to get on-line, search for some income generating sites, that lead me here in mylot now. Now with the two jobs I have, working from eight in the morning and going home at eleven in the evening, why I am still poor? And how would he call the other Filipinos that do not have, at least one job? Sorry Millionaire, is your friend lazy or crazy? Sorry again...
• Philippines
25 Jun 08
Hi There Neildc Maybe he is both lazy and a bit crazy! Ha ha. I have a question for you! If you have two jobs and working really long hours to keep your head above the water, what will you do when the prices get even higher? You can't work another job as you can't fit more hours in the day. What will the solution be? Just a small question to get the juices working! Tim
@neildc (16904)
• Philippines
25 Jun 08
I really don't know, buddy. but there came a time that i thought of looking for a third job. a waiter, a club singer, disc jockey or a taxi driver? ha ha ha. i will surely end up in the hospital with that kind of life. i will just keep these 2 jobs and wait till the bosses give raise.
@heero1103 (322)
• Philippines
6 Jul 08
I think your friend is kinda biased in making his opinions. Just tell him next time, keep his opinions unto him, because he does not know what he is saying. He has the same thinking as the Spaniards that conquered us. Being lazy is not only in the Philippines, it is everywhere. Jeez, even at this point of time there are people who think lowly of their fellows. And he even reads the Bible, shame on him.
• Philippines
7 Jul 08
I want to say a collective thank you to everyone that has replied here over the last few days. The comments over the last two weeks have been very interesting and inspiring. I think it is wonderful to see so many different comments from so many walks of life and also I thank the honest of all those people who had things to say that "told me off". I take them to heart and will remember what I have been taught. Thanks to you all and keep posting and working hard! Lets do our part to change the world. Tim