Miracles and healing in Lourdes

@topffer (42156)
France
July 18, 2017 5:31am CST
The sanctuary of Lourdes receives every year 5 to 6 millions of visitors. It is a huge number. Since 1858, the Catholic church has recognized only 69 miracles in Lourdes. It is a very small number. Why ? To tell if frankly, and contrarily at what many people are thinking, the Catholic church does not like to recognize a miracle happening in Lourdes. If Bernadette is a saint since 1933, it is not because of the apparitions, it is not because of the healing happening in Lourdes, it is because of the exemplarity of her religious life. Our Lady of Lourdes never told to Bernadette that the water of her source would cure anybody, it is the popular faith of people that believed it. Facing since the beginning in 1858 several cases of spontaneous healing, the bishop of the place asked to a doctor to study the files and to give his opinion. Later, in 1884, a Bureau of Medical Findings was installed in the sanctuary. It is still there and the same building welcomes a «Museum of Miraculous» upstairs. I was following 3 Arabic speaking nurses when I went to this museum last week. A doctor was waiting for them at the entrance, welcomed them kindly, and they gave him what was looking like an envelope of radiographies. Another «unexplained healing» ? Since 1884 there has been more than 7200 files recording an unexplained healing deposited in this Bureau. Each case is studied by the doctors with a very strict protocol : 1) the disease should have been authentified and the diagnosis confirmed before the healing ; 2) the medical prognosis has to be clear ; 3) the healing has to be complete, spontaneous, without any convalescence, definitive and without relapse ; 4) none of the medical treatments can be considered like the reason of the healing, and cannot have contributed to it. The last point is the more difficult today, because it is rare when a patient victim of a cancer has not had before coming to Lourdes a chemo or a radiotherapy that might have contributed to the healing. However there are still several unexplained healing admitted by the medicine and transmitted to the Church that makes its own investigation. For the Church, the healing has not only to be a healing it has to be also «a sign of God» sent to this person, and it is the bishop where lives the person who decides wether the healing was or not a miracle. The medicine can take time to decide : on the 2 cases transmitted by the doctors in 2011, one had been cured in 1965, the other in 1989... The Church can take time too, some bishops being very reticent. If I was sarcastic I would tell that it is another miracle if the miraculous is not yet dead when the miracle that happened in Lourdes is authenticated by the Church. Having a miracle recognized by the Church is an obstacle course, and it is more than probable that many cases of healing have never been declared. A study done in the 1990’s was telling that there were statistically as many cases of spontaneous unexplained healing in hospitals than in Lourdes, but you cannot do serious stats like that : if all the cases are known for hospitals, they are definitely not known for Lourdes. It remains me an old medical article criticizing Pasteur when he discovered the rabies vaccine, and showing statistically that the vaccine was inefficient... Indeed you can think that the healing happening in Lourdes are the result of a placebo effect, and that everything happens in the brain. I would object you that if placebos were effective on paralytics and toddlers, it would be known. And indeed you will always find people rejecting the cases that the medicine cannot explain. Speaking of Lourdes, a good example was Emile Zola. The author of the Rougon-Macquart was a skeptic intellectual who was not believing in miracles. Besides he was also an atheist a bit anticlerical. He came to Lourdes in 1892 with a train of pilgrims from Paris and stayed there two weeks with these pilgrims to study the people coming to the sanctuary. As he was a kind of celebrity all the doors were opened for him, from the town hall to the Bureau of medical findings. It might seem ironic, but this man who was not believing in miracles attended at the spontaneous healing of two women condemned by the medicine who had traveled in the same train than him. He put them in the book that he published about Lourdes in 1894, but instead of speaking of healing, he gave them a temporary remission and made them die. Admitting that they had been definitely cured would have ruined his book and his own beliefs/unbeliefs. Believing or denying the healing happening in Lourdes might be finally only... a question of faith. I read a 2015 interview of François-Bernard Michel, the medicine professor presiding the international medical comittee of Lourdes (the second and last level of the medical investigation after the Bureau of medical findings located in Lourdes) to document this article and I have been struck by one of his responses : Question : In your position, are you admirative of what is happening in Lourdes ? R : Yes, because it is a place where I think that the divine reaches land... End of this post : I cannot add anything more after this quote coming from a medicine professor knowing perfectly his subject. Photo : Top left, a group of pilgrims near the Basilica. Top right, the Basilica. Bottom left, the Bureau of Medical Findings. Bottom right, a chapel in the crypt. I took these pictures, use them like you want.
14 people like this
11 responses
@vandana7 (98834)
• India
18 Jul 17
At the risk of sounding old fashioned, uneducated, outdated and even stupid, I feel like saying, miracles happen. Miracle is not merely touching the water, and being free of disease. It is also finding the right doctor, who can give right treatment, and having enough monies on hand for that treatment, oh so much goes into curing a person. I do not accept that limited criteria for declaring something as a miracle or non-miracle. Miracle would include me accepting without fear, my time to go and not suffering any pain while I do so. There are so many types of miracles. Confining them into small definition ..which human mind can come up with...it is so silly and so human. I believe in all gods Top. If you call me stupid...I will travel all the way to France, to spank you.
4 people like this
@vandana7 (98834)
• India
18 Jul 17
@topffer .. LOL...so I am not stupid according to you. Evil Grin.. You know what? I agree.lol. Miracles not coming from doctors means what? In all probability, god feels oh , so many are suffering with malaria? I can't be sitting here all day and supplying them water ...let me make it easier for them, let me give them some cure so that half the rush to this place comes down, and I can have some rest. Somewhere I read, God could not be everywhere, so he made mothers. Perhaps it can also be read as god could not attend to all his devotees, so he made doctors to cure them of their ailment? It can only be using the doctor's hand, mind, body to do what the god wants them to do.
3 people like this
@topffer (42156)
• France
18 Jul 17
@vandana7 If you had been a man, I would have advised you to enter in the order of the Jesuits, you would have had a chance to be the next Pope. Your arguments are too sophisticated and sound wrong for me : I am a primitive, I like when a miracle is directly done by God, not by a doctor or a pharmacist. Besides I believe in free will, including for the doctor and the pharmacist, so God does not use their hand 7/7 24/24, and I cannot trust them like I trust God.
3 people like this
@topffer (42156)
• France
18 Jul 17
I believe in miracles coming from God, not from doctors. Speaking of Lourdes I have been instantly and definitely (at least until now) cured of a stuttering that I had since I was speaking after I drank 2 glasses of this water when I was 7 years old. It has never been declared by my parents. I cannot explain why God had chosen me, but it is certainly not to be spanked by you 50 years later. The criteria of the Catholic Church are too limited in my opinion : why this water would cure only good Catholics going to the mass every Sunday ?
5 people like this
@cacay1 (83223)
• Cagayan De Oro, Philippines
18 Jul 17
I believe in miracles.God always gives me miracles. When I was a teenager, I had a brain cancer, the only cure was a miracle from my loving God, our only Savior. Those who do not believe do not feel the happiness a heart feels when there is God in their lives. Virgin of Lourdes is a miraculous Virgin.No one can debate on that to the most High.Many are healed by Virgin of Lourdes. To God Be The Glory, Amen.
4 people like this
@topffer (42156)
• France
18 Jul 17
It was not as serious as a brain cancer, but I have been instantly cured in Lourdes of a stuttering that I had since I was speaking at 7 years old. I think it is why I have a special relation with this place. It was difficult to speak of my personal experience, it is why I introduced Lourdes in these 2 articles.
4 people like this
@cacay1 (83223)
• Cagayan De Oro, Philippines
21 Jul 17
@topffer there is grotto of the Virgin of Lourdes few miles away from the city where I live. She performs miracles especially during her feast day.
• Pamplona, Spain
18 Jul 17
Love the photos and the write up got me rivetted here about what you had been doing there. I also believe in miracles some work in different ways I think. Having the trust of a child is very important. The bit about the dog being healed I really love that as a dog does not have our logic or reason that gets in the way they just accept and that´s it. So how do you get real water from Lourdes sent to you then tops? I don´t want to rant on but what I will say I believe it because love is all there is.
3 people like this
• Pamplona, Spain
18 Jul 17
@topffer Its about four hours tops I have just looked it up if we go from Pamplona. We are an hours drive from Pamplona itself and not good roads but the best road is to take San Sebastian first then head for Biarritz and then Pau and then Lourdes. We shall see as its a lot of Petrol from here to there but well worth it to me. There is also another place similar to Lourdes its in Vizcaya for the life of me can I remember the name of it right now. Thank you anyway tops bless you.
2 people like this
@topffer (42156)
• France
18 Jul 17
I did what any visitor does, and I went to a mass on Wednesday morning. Nobody sends me water from Lourdes, but I filled a bottle to bring back at home before leaving the sanctuary. The case of the dog is interesting indeed, nobody can tell that it is psychological, and it probably not had a chemo. There were a lot of Spanish speaking people when I was there. I do not know how far is it from your place, but you would certainly be interested by the visit.
3 people like this
@LadyDuck (458230)
• Switzerland
18 Jul 17
This is very interesting and I have to say that I believe in the unexplained as well as I believe in miracles. I do not know why the Catholic Church is so strict, they must have a reason that is surely better not to know. I have seen below you comment about the fact that this water should only cure the Catholics who go to the Sunday Mess and this is ridiculous. My mother in law had a dog, the dog was diagnosed with cancer. A friend brought to her a bottle of Water of Lourdes, she gave the water to her dog... well the cancer was gone. I do not believe the dog was catholic, because the family of my husband was not even catholic.
3 people like this
@topffer (42156)
• France
18 Jul 17
@LadyDuck Maybe is it a reason why they do not like to recognize healing happening in Lourdes like being miracles ? I am also surprised that they did not took them in account in their investigation to beatify Bernadette Soubirous. I just read an article about that, I should read all the original file to be sure.
3 people like this
@topffer (42156)
• France
18 Jul 17
I suspect that it depends of the bishop, but only healing of Catholics have been recognized until now. The dog was not Catholic, as you do not baptize dogs, and a placebo does not work on a dog, so it is a very interesting case !
3 people like this
@LadyDuck (458230)
• Switzerland
18 Jul 17
@topffer It surely it is and I suspect that if my mother in law would have told this story to a Bishop she would have been considered blasphemous for giving Holy water to a dog.
3 people like this
@Inlemay (17714)
• South Africa
19 Jul 17
I believe in Miracles
2 people like this
@topffer (42156)
• France
19 Jul 17
Same for me.
2 people like this
@dollaboy (6048)
18 Jul 17
I heard it works fella
2 people like this
@dollaboy (6048)
18 Jul 17
@mandala100 lets try peter fella
2 people like this
@topffer (42156)
• France
18 Jul 17
@dollaboy Lourdes cures human internal diseases, not wallet diseases.
4 people like this
@dollaboy (6048)
18 Jul 17
@topffer hopefully wallet as well fella
1 person likes this
@eileenleyva (27562)
• Philippines
14 Mar 19
Thank you very much for sharing this experience with us. I do believe in our Lady's apparition and Bernadette's story. Absolutely and completely. Yes, it is disheartening when men like Emile Zola would put vested interest over truth. Yet, that is part of the battle to be won. Men have completely veered away from truth to gratify their greed and power and lust. Despite the voluminous evidences validated by empirical examinations, they still deny the truth. I like the pictures much. Lourdes has been surreal, when I was a child, we pray the Rosary as a family in front of our Grotto. Now, I am deeply overwhelmed by Lourdes just because our Lady chose it, and its fragile lass named Bernadette, to bring the world to believing and healig. Here's hoping your heart skips a beat when you say your Rosary. Mine does. Do take care of your self. Plus, this post is simply wonderful. Minus Zola..
1 person likes this
@eileenleyva (27562)
• Philippines
14 Mar 19
@topffer You are kind to your fellow man, like Zola. I am not as kind to people who refuse to speak the truth when their agenda are compromised. Sigh. Our Lady is everywhere. She is in desperation to save souls. Our Lady o Banneux is new to me. Belgium sounds like a nice country. I have not given it much study, Thanks for the advisement and the link.
1 person likes this
@topffer (42156)
• France
14 Mar 19
It is sometimes difficult to be able to question oneself and atheists like Zola are rarely doing it. This said, he was a great writer, but not for this book. There is a place very similar to Lourdes, less known, where I want to go, it is Banneux, in Belgium. I was in Lyon on Tuesday, and there is an important Marian shrine at the top of a hill, the Basilica Notre-Dame de Fourvières, which has been inscribed as a World Heritage building by the UNESCO. I could not leave Lyon without a short visit and prayer. I post a photo taken with my phone camera inside.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to navigation Jump to search 1933 apparition of Mary in Belgium Our Lady of BanneuxThe miraculous spring of Our Lady of Banneux, in BelgiumLocationBanneux, BelgiumDateJanuary 15 – March 2, 1933WitnessMariette Beco
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@topffer (42156)
• France
14 Mar 19
It seems that I cannot post a link and a photo together ; here is the picture of the Basilica.
1 person likes this
@much2say (53958)
• Los Angeles, California
19 Jul 17
I didn't realize "true" miracles were documented by the church like this - but also they are surprisingly (to me) very small in number. Explained or unexplained, it is a miracle for a person to completely heal from what ails them - how wonderous and life changing - can't a miracle claim just "be"? Medicine and science can answer some things - but not all - and some are only theories. Not all cases can fit into one of their molds . . . but unfortunately they do try to do that. I lost my original comment here! See, not everything can be explained .
2 people like this
@SIMPLYD (90722)
• Philippines
25 Jul 17
Lourdes is a very famous destination for pilgrims. Here in our place, the priest just announced last Saturday's anticipated mass, that whoever would like to join the Lourdes pilgrimage should just go to the church's office to register and pay the cost. Thank you for sharing those pictures. They're beautiful.
1 person likes this
@topffer (42156)
• France
25 Jul 17
I suppose the cost is not cheap when you live in the Philippines. There were a lot of people from Asia when I went to Lourdes. Thank you. I want to put all my pictures of Lourdes online for free/public domain, but I do not know where to put them. I have to check if Wikimedia would accept them?
1 person likes this
@SIMPLYD (90722)
• Philippines
25 Jul 17
@topffer Oh yes, they are expensive. Mostly, the rich are the ones who can afford them or those old people who have children working abroad and they sponsor them. Maybe you should check them indeed.
1 person likes this
@DaddyEvil (137142)
• United States
21 Jul 17
These two discussions are very interesting, Top! (I looked up Lourdes before I read this second discussion.) I am very happy your stuttering (as mentioned to someone after the first discussion) was relieved. I am positive you were very happy with that outcome, as well. All I know for sure is that there are many unexplained things that have happened in this world. I am not one who has been given access to explanations about any of them.
1 person likes this
@topffer (42156)
• France
5 Oct 17
I do not know how I missed the notification for your response, but a miracle happened today : somebody responded again to this discussion, and I noticed several uncommented responses. Yes, there are things that we cannot explain in this world and I like to think, like this medicine professor, that "Lourdes is a place where the divine reaches land". We need places like that to help us to withstand the rigors of life.
@YrNemo (20261)
19 Jul 17
A very cautious approach to the subject of miracles and Lourdes. Good on you. (Faith & placebo effect is something scientists could not figure out yet I think. But then, if everything is so clear cut and obvious, life would be too boring. Mysteries and unexplained events keep the world an exciting place I guess.) Interesting thing about you as a little kid who got afflicted with stuttering until the taking of Lourdes water. Especially so since you end up in a legal career where fluency is very important. (I have a friend who was very quiet when we first met ages ago. He just sat there smiling and giving me tender looks (since I talked too fast for him I guess! ). When he told me later that he got afflicted with stuttering and often had to speak slowly to control it, I was so surprised. Funny that he just contacted me suddenly a few hours ago too just for a chat.)
2 people like this
@topffer (42156)
• France
19 Jul 17
I studied law, but I have never had a legal career. Anyways I have had to give many conferences and to speak to the public as an archeologist, and having stuttering would not have helped. I do not remember many things that happened when I was 7, but curiously I remember very well when it happened. I had two glasses of water and I felt immediately cured. I did not told it to my parents, and they noticed it in a restaurant an hour later. I do not believe a lot in placebos working for young children. In my case, according to the medicine, it should have stopped at any moment... but it stopped in Lourdes just after I drank this water !
2 people like this