Faith-based education is child abuse
By Thomas73
@Thomas73 (1467)
Switzerland
January 31, 2007 2:25pm CST
Isn't it funny that a Jewish family will have little Jews, a Christian family will have little Christians, a Muslim family will have little Muslims, a Hindu family will have little Hindus, and so on and so forth for every human belief in an organised religious dogma? Let's face reality here: children are being abused as soon as they come to the world with what their parents tell them about the god they themselves believe in.
In the words of Richard Dawkins, an eminent evolutionary biologist and somehow philosopher, "Innocent children are being saddled with demonstrable falsehoods. It's time to question the abuse of childhood innocence with superstitious ideas[...]." Yes, it is time indeed!
Children are very sensitive to what they learn, mostly when the teachings are emotionally charged, which is the case when they come from the parents. Like a sexually abused child by one of the parents will develop into a somehow emotionally impaired adult, the child receiving the 'god tuition' from the parents will become blindly religious and adopt the same mentality as the one that was insidiously forced into his/her mind -- even with the best of intentions.
The dogmas may be different, but the principle remains the same. You see on the news those pictures of little Muslim children marching in the streets and wearing a green bandanna, ready to become suicide-bombers and die for Allah. You must have heard of those little girls of Prussian Blue, who sing the goodness of God while preaching White supremacy. Those are two examples among many, but each and every religion has its share of similar child abuse.
While religious education has a certain cultural value when you compare the different beliefs humans have evolved at different times and in different places, the *indoctrination* of children into a particular faith inherited from the parents is *wrong*. It is indeed child abuse and contributes to the already unacceptable divide between different people.
So stop brainwashing your child and make him/her believe that his/her god is real and makes him/her superior to others who don't share those beliefs. There's no such thing as a god that wants 'higher' or 'lower' people. If there is a god, he/she/it most probably would want a bit more harmony within his/her/its creation.
Thanks for reading. I'm waiting for the flames...
10 people like this
32 responses
@sigma77 (5383)
• United States
31 Jan 07
Flames? I hope the fire department is waiting outside your door. lol. What a hornets nest you have stuck a stick into. But I somewhat have to agree. I think religions go to far in brainwashing people in trying to keep them as a convert for life.
It makes no sense to me that with all the religions over the last 2,000 years, there are still wars and fighting among nations and religions themselves. You make a good point...there is no higher or lower in the eyes of God. It is only man and his selfish ego that creates these foolish divisions. Which in turn causes conflicts.
5 people like this
@Thomas73 (1467)
• Switzerland
31 Jan 07
I've informed the airport fire brigade; they're used to dealing with massive and hardly extinguishable fires. ;)
My rant wasn't directed at God -- I don't even believe there is one -- but at what people make of this notion, and how they use it for their own benefit. Why can't we just live in peace and respect of each other? And that includes children, who are born innocent and oblivious of those beliefs that are -- oh so gently! -- forced into them.
Peace :)
6 people like this
@megs85 (3142)
• Australia
31 Jan 07
No flames here either ;) But they will come... LOL, be ready.
Personally, I believe children shouldnt be conditioned to accept any religion until they are old enough to understand and make their own decision. Wothout influence from parent, schools, peers, etc.
I have had my son "christened" but all that is, is an introduction into my fiancees church. When he is old enough I will take him to Sunday School a few times and he can choose whether he continues going or not. If he chooses Christianity for himself, he can be confirmed as my partner was.
In the meantime I will also be explaining to him the various other religions. He can be educated in regards to stories from the Talmud, the Koran, prinicples from Wicca and so forth.
He will make an informed decision, when he is ready to.
I was brought up a Christian, I was a devout follower until the murder of my father. After that I was an atheist. I now know what I believe, and dont always share it with others, as they are my beliefs. Religion is an INDIVIDUAL choice, and chidlren should not have their decisions made for them, before they are old enough to form their own opinion.
JMO
@Thomas73 (1467)
• Switzerland
31 Jan 07
Beliefs are indeed a very personal choice that should be respected. Children should not be forced into them, but made aware that different people believe in different things.
I do like the way you responded. Very mature and well though out :)
4 people like this
@Asylum (47893)
• Manchester, England
1 Feb 07
This actually expands from the parental influence to a social one, because many people send their children to a school that specialises in a specific religion. This not only provides a further level of indoctrination during education, but it also means that friends will be of the same faith.
All in all that amounts to a large amount of confirmation for the parents' views from external sources.
3 people like this
@acuityplague (763)
• United States
1 Feb 07
How can you assert that God is a fallacy, when you say he is an "untestable theory"?(as you stated in an earlier comment)
It seems to me that if the existence of God is untestable, than so is the NON-existence of God. Eh?
Raising children to have like minded beliefs is a form of bonding; not only with the parents but with others who share those beliefs. A support system of sorts, if you like.
I believe in God, I believe a persons relationship with God is individual and very personal- as I have taught my children. I do not agree that it is brain washing or child abuse to share a spirtual belief, I actually find the idea ludicrous.
Wouldn't not teaching your child then also be a form of abuse? Having them grow up with no spirtual guidance or grounding etc. I guess it depends on how you look at it, or rather - which side of the flames you're on.
Humans have always had the urge to look to a higher power; worshipping fire, cats, trees, snakes and various other gods etc, as can be seen by studying past cultures. Perhaps it's just something we humans NEED.
Even cursory social observation of the last 50 years will also show that the less God is prevelant within homes and community...the more violent, and crappy society becomes.
I'm all for God and a spirtual upbringing of our youth.
@Thomas73 (1467)
• Switzerland
1 Feb 07
Schools should be secular anyway. Teaching the fallacy of god as an absolute truth can be quite dangerous in some cases.
As you justly said, faith-based schools tend to separate children from others whose parents have a different faith. I can cite the concrete example of my wife, who had to go to Catholic school and who, years later, met someone her age and from the same town, but whom she didn't know from childhood. Of course! That person had gone to the Protestant school! What could have been a long friendship was simply hampered by religion...
1 person likes this
@Thomas73 (1467)
• Switzerland
1 Feb 07
So, you're saying that humans are sheep in need of a shepherd? Sheep are not very bright animals, you know...
There's no need for a god, but if you're happy with this notion, it's ok. Just don't soil innocent minds with something that belongs to the realm of fairytales.
And yes, god as described by the scriptures of any religion is a fallacy. Nothing of what this entity is said to have done makes any sense. And please don't come up with nonsense like "God moves in mysterious ways".
Your argumentation was nice, though. It got you a '+', even if you're obviously a child abuser. I must be in a good mood ;)
1 person likes this
@bonnielass (484)
• United States
1 Feb 07
Interesting post..lol
My first husband and I ..well i was raised Jewish and my husband christian..we agreed that our daughter be raised christian and known about Jewish but telling her all along when she older she can be what she wants..
Now add my currant situation.
Im with Jewish background and now really more spiritualist...my husband is Muslim...
the kids are being raised Muslim but they also know that there is christian and Jewish in the family..now arent we the mutt family hehehe
My husband hopes they will be Muslim all there life i tell them as long as there healthy and happy and can financially do something with there lives they have the right to be what they want...
To many families force religion on there kids and the truth is all we need to know is there possibly is something out there...to love yourself and family, to respect yourself and those around you and always help other and be an all around good person..
When people do that they try and use religion for it making people think if they think of something outside that religion they are no longer a good person..
Religion has raised many wars..To me its either your a good person or not...Why push a person into being something they didnt chose for themselves.
@Thomas73 (1467)
• Switzerland
1 Feb 07
This is a great advantage for your children to have been exposed to all three abrahamic religions. It should help them to make their mind up later in life and to cross-reference those faiths.
You make a very nice link with a discussion I'd started here a little while ago (http://www.mylot.com/w/discussions/467136.aspx). Thanks a lot for a really response. :)
1 person likes this
@blueskies (1186)
• United States
1 Feb 07
Teaching your children religion = child abuse
That's an interesting premise. I am agnostic. I firmly believe in the separation of church and state. I break out in hives when someone tries to have a chat with me about going to church or being saved.
Still....I believe that everyone should be able to teach their child about their religious beliefs. I don't condone the hate and ignorance that accompanies such teachings in certain families, but I like to think that such extremes are the exception, not the rule. For many, religion is part of the family identity and the springboard from which many build their lives. Religion is deeply ingrained in the lives of so many.
This leads me to another aspect of this question: Government interference. If you were to equate religious teachings to child abuse, the government must become involved. Who else will make laws prohibiting specific teachings, degrees of religion, particular beliefs? Who will man the Anti-God Squad?
The government of the United States (the country I am most familiar with) seeks to keep church and state separate. We no longer have nativity scenes in front of many courthouses, yet we would attempt to regulate religion? This would be the height of hypocrisy.
We must always endeavor to keep our government from beginning the descent down the slippery slope of interference into our parenting, families and beliefs. Big Brother is not such an outlandish concept when you really think about it.
@Thomas73 (1467)
• Switzerland
1 Feb 07
You're right, governments should stay away from this and the banning of nativity scenes is to me quite preposterous. I am not against the teaching of religion, but it should encompass ALL of them, and assert that the notion of god is not an absolute truth, but a personal belief.
Culturally-speaking, we should all know about the various religions in order to understand each other better, without being led to believe that some are the 'chosen ones', whereas others are just some sort of 'sub-humans'.
1 person likes this
@comedyaddict (772)
• Canada
1 Feb 07
Interest idea you just raised there Thomas, but lets take it one step further.. is not teaching you kid about religion also a form of child abuse? Not having a religion is a form of faith; faith that you are correct and everyone else is wrong. Following your logic I would say that is child abuse too.. so isn't every parent guilty of child abuse to some extent??? Scary thought there...
3 people like this
@Thomas73 (1467)
• Switzerland
1 Feb 07
Do not confuse teaching religion and imposing faith. Faith is something you *feel* -- or don't feel, as the case may be -- whereas religions are an integral part of the variety of human cultures. The notion of a god should simply not be presented as a fact... because it isn't!
1 person likes this
@blueskies (1186)
• United States
1 Feb 07
So as an agnostic, I'd be one of the few parents not in jail ;)
2 people like this
@comedyaddict (772)
• Canada
1 Feb 07
lol.. nope, sorry blueskies, because you don't know whats out there, you should be covering all your bases. You actually have it the hardest off ;)
2 people like this
@mikeyr6000le (2123)
• United States
1 Feb 07
That is very untrue. If that were true then we would all be the exact same religion. It sounds to me that you ares yaing parents teach or "brainwash" there children to beleive their religion. That is not true because children grow up and learn to think for themselves. My parents are Methodist but I do not beleive in any higher power. I do beleive though that religous people do "brainwash" their kids in different ways. I remember when I was younger and going to church they used puppets and movies to teach us things. Fun things that kids will get into and beleive and not ignore. I did grow out of it and learned to think for myself though.
2 people like this
@cloudwatcher (6861)
• Australia
1 Feb 07
I wasn't taught any religion as a child. In fact I was given every reason NOT to believe in God.
As I matured I thought for myself and I grew out of what I had endured as a child. I learnt the truth and the truth set me free. I found a living, loving relationship with the living, loving God and His presence has guided me through life for the last 48 years.
1 person likes this
@Thomas73 (1467)
• Switzerland
1 Feb 07
Quote: "I did grow out of it and learned to think for myself."
I'm glad you did, and I know that a lot of people do. I just feel sorry for those -- unfortunately the vast majority -- who didn't and who took inherited ideas for granted instead of thinking for themselves.
1 person likes this
@chertsy (3798)
• United States
1 Feb 07
My mom was relgious, my dad was border line I guess towards atheist. The one thing they never have done was push there beliefs on me or my siblings. Nor would they deny us going to a church of our choice.
Now that I have kids, I'm religious but one of those going to church every Sunday or Wednesday types that carry's a Bible every where I go. I don't believe you have to go to a building to worship God, when you have a building of your own, called your home. But if my kids want to go to church, I won't stop them.
@MrNiceGuy (4141)
• United States
1 Feb 07
I'm not sure how teaching children morals, character, and potentially the ways to heaven and eternal life is child abuse. Are they beaten or neglected? Are they affected negatively? Thats arguable, but I don't think its abuse. Is it child abuse that some parents teach kids certain things or ideas about life in general since they might be setting them up to be wrong in the future, or to think a certain way in the future. I'm a bit familiar with Richard Dawkins, but hes very anti-religion and very verbally aggressive about it. I just don't agree that teaching your kids about religion necessarily means that you are teaching them that they are better than other people, I just don't really see that.
2 people like this
@inked4life (4224)
• United States
1 Feb 07
Whilst I can't really concur with the "child abuse" theory, I do believe it is wrong to push any of your personal beliefs onto your kids. Certainly teach them right from wrong, but to tell them what religion they should or shouldn't believe is just wrong. At some point in the future, they may end up disagreeing with what you believe and feel betrayed that you have "lied" (not saying, you are lying, just what they will feel) to them their entire life.
I am an atheist and my wife kinda sits on the fence unsure what to believe (she definitely does not beleive in organized religion), but we never push any of that on our kids. If they ask a question (as they do a lot because they hear a lot of God talk from the other kids in school), we answer them as honestly as possible and try to explain what different people believe in, making no declaration as to what we belive to be the correct belief.
I find them to be a lot more tolerant, and non-judgemental than most of the kids who come from a strict religious background (and believe me we are surrounded by them here in the South)
2 people like this
@chaygylmommy (2470)
• United States
1 Feb 07
very eloquently put! I do believe in a God...I was brought up Baptist, but I have a lot of different views from my parents and some people in the church I used to go to. I teach my children about God, but not just ONE thing. I want them to learn all religions and choose for themselves. I don't MAKE my kids go to church, but my son LOVES to go to Sunday School. As long as my kids want to go, then I will let them. I want my kids to make their own decisions and decide what/who they believe in.
When they have questions about something in a religious realm, I go on the internet and find answers...more than just the "christian" one or the "jewish" one or whatever.
Thank you for putting things in such a nice way. As I said, I do believe in God, but that is MY belief...
2 people like this
@Thomas73 (1467)
• Switzerland
1 Feb 07
Faith is indeed something very personal and should not be imposed onto others, mostly innocent children. You need to guide them toward critical thinking so they can make the choice for themselves. And that's exactly what you're doing! Great attitude! :)
1 person likes this
@chaygylmommy (2470)
• United States
1 Feb 07
not the belief that my kids may have. I see nothing wrong with teaching kids what you believe in, but they should also be open to other things as well. I was never told anything about other religions--as far as what they believe and how they celebrate and worship. I am not dogging my parents...they were just bringing me up in what they themselves believed in and knew about. But, as I matured and got older--especially in my adult years--I have come to realize that there is so much out there that I never knew about. I love to learn new things and I want my kids to experience all of this early on in their lives. I want them to see that there are more than ONE choice in life when it comes to what they believe in.
2 people like this
@happymomndad (1035)
• United States
31 Jan 07
I call BS. Some people do take it to far and dont give thier children a choice but we do. Our children do not have to go to church. To say that it is brainwashing them to teach them what we belive is true is abolutly absurd. Its like saying that it is abusive to teach them there abc's. They teach darwin in school why cant we teach christianity.
2 people like this
@megs85 (3142)
• Australia
31 Jan 07
What to believe and how to write are two totally different things, in my opinion. Dont get me wrong, Im not saying i'm right your wrong, or anything like that... only that we should all have the choice, to be made for ourselves, about what we believe in. Its a well known fact children are very easily influenced, and by throwing whatever religion at them night and day, at school in particular, I think that is influencing them.
I personally, as I said in my post, will be taking my son to sunday school/church. I want him to learn about christianity. But i may also take him to otehr religious services, and read to him from various religious texts as I want him to be well informed and open minded before he makes his choice. How many parents really do that?
2 people like this
@Thomas73 (1467)
• Switzerland
1 Feb 07
Thanks, Megs, you gave a great answer.
I'm still saddened that some people still won't get the point. Confusing evolution -- a proven science -- with the existence of a god -- an untestable theory -- shows the lack of interest in anything else than what they were brainwashed with as children. Happymomndad are obviously the victims of their indoctrination as children, as will sadly pass on their dubious ideas onto their chidren.
God is like HIV, basically: a dangerous sexually transmitted virus...
2 people like this
@cloudwatcher (6861)
• Australia
1 Feb 07
Evolution a proven science? Since when?
The strongest evolutionists call it a theory!
1 person likes this
@steerpyke (396)
•
1 Feb 07
Iread the book you are referencing here and totally agree with you. The point he makes that works for me is that you wouldnt raise a young child and refer to them as a Marxist, a conservative, a socialist or an anarchist so why should we find it okay to indoctrinate them in one particular faith before they have had chance to learn their own mind. In the 17th century there was a group called the anabaptists who believed that children should read widely on matters of faith and then when they were 18 could decide which path was right for them, if any. How sensible.
2 people like this
@JanieJetz (47)
• United States
1 Feb 07
Some strong statements, but I appreciate your intellect and willingness to start such a debate. I am not religious and do not have a denomination. What I find ironic, though, is a story I'm about to tell where not knowing about religion hurt my schoolwork (and not at a religious school!). I was an English major in college and took a class called "Classical and Biblical Backgrounds to English Liturature". I was totally lost, and we read a number of books where I couldn't spot a biblical reference if it jumped off the page and bit me. I really struggled, and ended up having to take an "incomplete" while I negotiated extra time to finish my final paper! I ended up getting a B- and was happy with that!
I agree with you, Thomas, that religion and school (not just a class like I took) aren't the best mix. I have issues with organized religion. I feel like if I'm moral and good, and am kind and generous to others, then I am a good person, and I don't need an organized group of people to make me realize this or teach me this.
Thanks for the post. Very thought provoking!
@Thomas73 (1467)
• Switzerland
1 Feb 07
And thank you for your very good answer!
The so-called 'holy' books are an integral part of our culture, with the Bible being predominant in Western civilisation and being referenced in many authors' work. I encourage people to read it, like I encourage them to read Mein Kampf. It's part of my 'know-your-enemy' attitude. ;)
1 person likes this
@steerpyke (396)
•
1 Feb 07
I have read a lot of religious books, not so much in a know your enemy way as you put it, but in an attempt to truely understand the whole argument. People ask me how I can have Richard Dawkins alongside Thomas Aquinas or The Life of Mohammed next to the Bible. Its called knowing your subject, even Aquinas himself said "beware of a man with just one book" The search should be constant and evolving in life, maybe the search itself is the thing, i'll let you know the answer when I work it out. With this in mind it does scare me the number of people who are initiated into their parents faith with no other choice given at an age where they can't have any real understanding of any real spiritual meanings.
2 people like this
@mom2chriskel (1060)
• United States
1 Feb 07
I guess I don't see a big problem in raising your children in whatever church you attend. In the end, they make their own decisions and my goal is to be understanding whatever belief system or no belief system they chose to believe in. If they chose not to believe in any God that is their decision. My dad doesn't believe in any God and he never forced that on us and never downed us either for attending youth groups, church services or church camp.
2 people like this
@James72 (26790)
• Australia
1 Feb 07
Long time no see Thomas73..... I have outlined in a previous response to another religious question that I would have preferred to have been taught about ALL religions in high school rather than just Christianity. That would have been an education in itself rather than a "sales pitch" for Christianity! But the fact is, this was not an option and most parents would have probably been horrified if the school had even attempted to do this. (this was a non-denominational school too by the way)
A parents role is to grow and nurture a child both physically and mentally; and to instill a sense of pride, ethical and moral responsibility. Is raising a child under their religion any different from raising a child to show specific social behaviours or how to react towards others? It's an interesting question in my opinion.
It is the children whose ability to be a child is repressed by overbearing religious parents that concern me the most. You see in the media photographs of children in Afghanistan for example, armed to the teeth and fighting alongside their brothers and fathers; fighting for Islam and being proud to die doing so..... That to me is undoubtedly child abuse. Thank God most of us eventually learn to think for ourselves!
1 person likes this
@Doramicoki (23)
• Hong Kong
1 Feb 07
I am just a secondary 1 student,from a christian primary school,to this christian secondary,even I got the teacher forcing us to study about Christian,I just keeping refusing it.Of course,I am not like,stand up in class and tell the teacher "I don't believe anything about Jesus",but simply forget it right after the lesson.Education should not have religion included.They got a subject and exam for certain Religion,which is totally annoying to people who believe in another religion or no religion.Yea,I think parents shouldn't brainwash kids.Have a nice day.
1 person likes this
@Thomas73 (1467)
• Switzerland
1 Feb 07
Take another (quite extreme) example: if you tell your kids that being beaten up by daddy is a normal and natural thing, they will believe you -- why shouldn't they? Still, this constitutes abuse. Not just physical abuse, but abuse of trust.
Telling kids that a god exists is similar in the way that they will believe you as a parent, even the only proof you can give them is "because it is so". Proper education should leave open the possibilities that exist and children should simply be told that a god *may* exist, although nobody is sure one way or another.
1 person likes this
@Doramicoki (23)
• Hong Kong
1 Feb 07
For a extra note,I can't agree it is child abuse,but I do think it is bad.
@geejoy (344)
• Philippines
1 Feb 07
hi.....i don't think your talking about the church/faith in here...there's nothing wrong with the faith (whether its christian/muslim/etc...its the people who believed in them that usually have overacting fancies of what they believe in.......you too are overacting based on your opinion also....lets face it....your religion gives you the guide, but then, all you do...all the faithfuls do are their own decisions...not the church itself..im a certified roman catholic......i know some of you here think that catholics are overacting....what i think is that the teachings are very good..its the people who tarnished it with wrong interpretation of the teachings......that's why we don't have any right for condemning any one of them on how they practiced their faith...we do are doing that......
@Thomas73 (1467)
• Switzerland
1 Feb 07
I am essentially having a go at organised and institutionalised beliefs, and also at the indoctrination with the notion of god. We happily let children believe in Santa Claus, knowing that they will one day find out the truth and grow out of it. The belief in god is different, as most parent hope that their children will believe it all their lives and pass it on to their children.
As I mentioned above, the notion of god is a very strong meme that can be compared to a sexually transmitted disease, from parents to children.
1 person likes this
@HeavenUnaware (1757)
• United States
1 Feb 07
Speaking for myself as a 'Christian' - not every Christian family expects to have little "christians" running around. I raise my son to know what my beliefs are. His father raises him to know what his beliefs are (he is Catholic, I am Baptist). We both share what we know about other religions and not in a bad way, but in an informative way. None of it is pushed off as "fact" because truth be told - none of us know what is face or fiction about religion we can only go by what we believe in our hearts and minds.
I do not want my son to follow my beliefs unless it is something he himself chooses and he knows this. I give him what I know and leave it up to him to research the rest and make up his own mind.
That is also what my parents did with me. I made my own choice to follow the faith that I do.
You may find it funny to know that I did name my son "Christian" though. *hah* :) (here come the flames)
1 person likes this
@Thomas73 (1467)
• Switzerland
1 Feb 07
Yours is a very sane attitude. Your son is informed about the different beliefs that exist -- well some of them! -- and will be later more apt to make a choice for himself. This is also why it is often beneficial to have parents of different confessions, like in the earlier response with the Jewish/Christian/Muslim family.
Have a '+' :)
1 person likes this
@HeavenUnaware (1757)
• United States
1 Feb 07
Thank you for the '+' - you were given the same earlier :)
I just wanted to clarify that I also tell my son about other religions that I do not follow but have knowledge on. I do not say "they believe this but it's not correct". I tell him what they believe in other faiths and will leave it up to him to decide if it feels right to him. We have friends and family members of all different faiths and we openly talk about religion in a respectful manner with these people. There is a mutual respect for each others choices without belittling it. We also have attended church with these other people and have enjoyed learning about their faith. I am very open minded when it comes to religion and I'm really very interested in learning about them all.
I just wish others would be as respectful and open minded towards me. They hear that I'm Baptist and automatically assume I am to the extreme - I am not. I associate myself with the Baptist religion but there are some parts that I do not agree with. I'm also not big on pushing my beliefs on anyone else. There's enough information available in this world that those who seek information can find it. If someone comes to me and wants to know something, I will tell them what I know but I try to encourage them to seek out the answers themselves.
Thanks for the nice discussion :)
1 person likes this
@xfallenxlostx (2074)
• United States
1 Feb 07
Well, i have to say i effing love what you had to say. Brainwashing a child into believing what you believe is child abuse. It is fine to expose them to it, but let them make their own decisions ultimately.
2 people like this
